Skinnyman
Posts: 2133
1/19/2020
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silurica wrote:
I actually wonder how many people have passed that Bat with Attitude roadblock and reached the current content boundary in Nemesis, compared to those who have not, because in my purely anecdotal experience I think I have seen more people without Battitude than with, at least in Discord. I can count on one hand how many people (including myself) have reported reaching the new content boundary in Discord, maybe two hands if I also count people from the Nemesis finale thread in this forum. That's so few and seems not proportionate to the hype for ambition finale update. Hope no one takes offense, but people tend to become more talkative and loud when they are not satisfied or when they are missing something. This is available everywhere not only in FL.
My point is that it is impossible to put these in scale and see the results. But a statement from FBG would be nice! "79% of Ambitioneres met the requirements beforehand."
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silurica
Posts: 210
1/19/2020
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Oh, I'm personally not the one troubled by the Battitude requirement. I already said this in the main thread, I already had a Battitude before. I am troubled by how poor a design choice this is though. Azothi has made many good points. I will put here what I've sent to FBG with emphasis:
Perhaps I'm pointing out the obvious, but the issue with Battitude is that there is no method to obtain it reliably, unlike many other items/resources in FL. The only way to obtain it is by owning a Sulky Bat (which ownership is completely optional), playing a luck check on its opportunity card, succeeding, and landing a rare success on it. This many layers of RNG, to put it bluntly, isn't fun when it's made obligatory for progression. It's entirely possible to go for a long time without seeing the elusive Battitude. I'm also concerned, are we to tell future Nemesis players from now on to get a Sulky Bat early on and play its card until they find a Battitude for a requirement that was never hinted at within the game itself? It would feel artificial, and I would argue is not a good design decision.
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 Leonard West, the Scarlet Informant
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dov
Posts: 2580
1/19/2020
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Speaking as someone who has enough Bats with Attitude (after roughly 8 years playing), I also think this is a problematic requirement for progressing a main story. One of the main problems I see is not so much the length of time it would take to get a Bat with Attitude, but the fact that most players simply wouldn't know how to get one anyway.
FBG have said in the past the the forum's participants are a very small minority of the general player base. Suppose that a random, average player has never chosen to buy a Sulky Bat. Then no matter how often they play, the'd never even see the associated card and would never know about the existence of Bats with Attitude or how to get them. And even *if* they have a Sulky Bat, and *if* they've played for a very long time, why would they consider this card "must play for a possible rare success I've never seen"? Most likely they'll either discard it or play the other option on it which provides a Favour.
And when such an average player now tries the latest Nemesis update and encounters this requirement, what can they do? Best case, they'll google the thing, find the wiki and figure out that they should get a Sulky Bat and wait for the card. They'd still know nothing about "advanced" tricks to optimize card draws. It's not good that there is no *in-game* explanation on getting such bats and that one has to rely on wiki/forum knowledge to progress.
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Jermaine Vendredi
Posts: 588
1/20/2020
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When I started playing (around 4 years ago now), I found the bazaar quite appealing and over time, picked up a wealth of bits and bobs, including most of the beasties. I wanted to explore all the denizens of the place where I found myself. It seemed the obvious thing to do -- to find out what each of them did, if anything. Some I ditched again (lizard), some I kept for the cards.
The bat one offers a Great Game favour, of course. Anyone who has read Phryne's guide to favours and renown would be aware of that. Bats are also useful during zee voyages, so ship owners would know about them, too, and that will be all POSI players.
There have also been options to exchange bats at festivals in the past. So it seems an entirely reasonable assumption on Failbetter's part that anyone who has played for a while would be aware of the existence of bats and possibly have the required variant.
Ambitions are also designed to be played over a longish period; stat requirements see to that. Given that they were all within a couple of chapters of being completed, I assume the players of these final portions are fairly late game. So again, time enough to know about bats and perhaps acquire what is necessary.
Having said all that, this is not my ambition. In fact, I decided that playing long stories I find hard to remember over time is not the way I enjoy FL at all, so mine is stuck fairly close to the beginning.
If FB does offer the option to send bats out, I'll be happy to oblige with my little flock.
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Amalgamate
Posts: 435
1/20/2020
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I got a bat with attitude, but that was back before the favors/renown conversion. If I remember then, the option that had a chance to give a bat with attitude was more profitable somehow, and so I played it for a while, up until the late game?
I got a second one recently, from just playing that card a few times since it was discussed. Felt almost bad TBH, because Nemesis isn't my ambition at the moment.
Anyway, I think I agree that the real problem is that there's a good chance someone can't figure out how to get a "Bat with attitude" without going on wiki or forums or discord.
I'm curious whether there's anything in the Light Fingers conclusion which will be like that. I don't expect it would be a problem if there were, I've probably collected most of the collectibles around, and I don't think I'd mind a few weeks of card-draw or whatever to grab an extra item. (On the other hand, if I had to lose stats, THAT I would mind, because at that point I'll be overcapped and then Flint-overcapped with my dangerous).
edited by Amalgamate on 1/20/2020
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Azothi
Posts: 586
1/20/2020
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Jermaine Vendredi wrote:
The bat one offers a Great Game favour, of course. Anyone who has read Phryne's guide to favours and renown would be aware of that. I mean, that's part of the problem, isn't it? Because if you play it for the Great Game favour every time, you have a 0% chance of having a Bat with Attitude.
Jermaine Vendredi wrote:
Bats are also useful during zee voyages, so ship owners would know about them, too, and that will be all POSI players. But that's not always the best option for zee voyages. The option to "Take advantage" gets you to your destination faster. If you correspond with other scholars, you lose bats as well. I decided after a few trips that it just wasn't worth it.
Jermaine Vendredi wrote:
There have also been options to exchange bats at festivals in the past. So it seems an entirely reasonable assumption on Failbetter's part that anyone who has played for a while would be aware of the existence of bats and possibly have the required variant. I've got to admit that I don't remember exchanging bats at festivals, and I haven't found that in the wiki.
(Edit: Unless you meant exchanging in a Bat with Attitude for an Utterly Livid Bat... which, I mean, is also part of the problem. If I hadn't done that, I wouldn't have this problem right now.)
Jermaine Vendredi wrote:
Ambitions are also designed to be played over a longish period; stat requirements see to that. Given that they were all within a couple of chapters of being completed, I assume the players of these final portions are fairly late game. So again, time enough to know about bats and perhaps acquire what is necessary. This proposal ignores players - including late-game players - who don't have a Bat with Attitude, though. We exist.
I would also add that the game, in many ways, treats Sulky Bats as an expendable resource: you can feed it to your plant, you can give them to the Boatmen, you use them to buy your way into Mahogany Hall. The poor things aren't long for the world.
edited by Azothi on 1/20/2020
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Azoth I, the Emissary of Cardinals - A Paramount Presence (not currently accepting new Proteges)
Away to where the Chain cannot bind us.
 Hesperidean.
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