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Election 1897: Virginia Messages in this topic - RSS

MrCandles
MrCandles
Posts: 111

7/21/2019
asinineFlatfoot wrote:
Jeremiah Oathes wrote:
If the charity is foremost meant to "improve our souls" (or, in other words, "fattening" them), provided by beings whose sole reason for interacting with humans is robbing said soul from you afterwards, then YES.

I can't even begin to imagine why people are fond of the idea of making London a slaughterhouse for the Devils.

Addendum: I mean, of course I can imagine why some select individuals would be fond of the idea. But in their case I'm firmly on the side of the Bishop of Southwark. Those rotten traitors don't need to be in Hell to BURN.
Fattening, slaughterhouse, fattening, slaughterhouse! This comparison turns my stomach more and more each time I hear it. Are we cows? Are we turkeys? Are we livestock? If we are offered food, we may yet become fat and happy, but will we become trapped? Will we become powerless? Does it inevitably follow that any act of charity will be the net that snares us and feeds us to the meat-grinder?

Let's even assume Virginia intends to do this, to "fatten us up before taking us to the slaughterhouse." (it's poppycock, but let's assume it anyway.) What's to stop us from taking her kindness and running away with it? Would a position as Mayor really poise her so to massacre us without any resistance? Are we that powerless that we would let that happen?

Souls are not food. Soul is more important than sustenance.
  • +1 link
    Anne Auclair
    Anne Auclair
    Posts: 2215

    7/21/2019
    asinineFlatfoot wrote:
    Fattening, slaughterhouse, fattening, slaughterhouse! This comparison turns my stomach more and more each time I hear it. Are we cows? Are we turkeys? Are we livestock?

    The Devils literally hunt humans in the Forgotten Quarter. So perhaps we're game animals.

    --
    http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Anne%20Auclair
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    Calliope
    Calliope
    Posts: 99

    7/21/2019
    Anne Auclair wrote:

    The Devils literally hunt humans in the Forgotten Quarter. So perhaps we're game animals.

    Perhaps swine. Comes in domesticated farmable varieties and wild huntable forms!

    --
    https://www.fallenlondon.com/profile/Calliope%20Rannis
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    Diptych
    Diptych
    Administrator
    Posts: 3402

    7/21/2019
    I am told the taste is about the same, so that makes sense.

    --
    Sir Frederick, the Libertarian Esotericist. Lord Hubris, the Bloody Baron.
    Juniper Brown, the Ill-Fated Orphan. Esther Ellis-Hall, the Fashionable Fabian.
    +3 link
    0bsidian Fire
    0bsidian Fire
    Posts: 109

    7/21/2019
    asinineFlatfoot wrote:
    Fattening, slaughterhouse, fattening, slaughterhouse! This comparison turns my stomach more and more each time I hear it. Are we cows? Are we turkeys? Are we livestock? If we are offered food, we may yet become fat and happy, but will we become trapped? Will we become powerless? Does it inevitably follow that any act of charity will be the net that snares us and feeds us to the meat-grinder?


    Let's even assume Virginia intends to do this, to "fatten us up before taking us to the slaughterhouse." (it's poppycock, but let's assume it anyway.) What's to stop us from taking her kindness and running away with it? Would a position as Mayor really poise her so to massacre us without any resistance? Are we that powerless that we would let that happen?
    This is exactly what the Judgements think of people's souls and what the Devils were designed to do before they rebelled. We are so far down the Chain of Being from them that we aren't even really pets. We are a food container for them and one that is rather bad at keeping the food we contain in good eating condition.

    Virginia's plans for London are exactly the kinds of things that would keep the food in us in good eating condition for the Judgments... or more likely the Law Furnaces of Hell.

    --
    Kharagal Mierqid - Bohemian Correspondent who is obsessed with the Language of Stars...
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    Vorwoda Hawksby
    Vorwoda Hawksby
    Posts: 16

    7/21/2019
    Admittedly, I am a relatively new resident of Fallen London, but here's my tuppence-worth for Virginia:

    After competing in the Forgotten Quarter for the Correspondence Stones, she and I played chess for them. She lost, and is now keeping her word. If actions speak louder than words, well, there's a concrete example of her integrity.

    On a more general note, in my dealings with other Devils and Devilesses in general, I have found them to be much less deceitful than many human Londoners. The Quiet Deviless, for example, invites you to witness Abstractions so you can see the end results yourself BEFORE she offers to Abstract your soul. If that's not open and aboveboard behaviour, what is?

    My point is that despite accusations of being deceitful, the Infernal contingent in Fallen London seem perfectly open about what they do and what their goals are. It's true that hey use charm to sugarcoat their agenda, but so do most people of all stripes (outside of Watchmaker's Hill, at any rate).

    Virginia's plan is to improve Londoners' spiritual, moral, mental and physical health. Is this primarily done out of benevolence? Of course not. She is, after all, a Deviless. But while our health benefits may be a byproduct of a plan to make our souls more valuable to Hell, they ARE benefits for us. While the quality of souls Hell receives will be improved, so will the souls it does not gain - so each person who does NOT sell his or her soul benefits.

    But let's compare Virginia with her competitors.

    Madame Shoshana is a demonstrable fraud. Her readings (tea leaves, crystal balls, palms and tarot) are exactly even chances, no more (or less) mystically insightful than a coin toss. The accuracy of her romantic, artistic or investigative consultations is entirely dependent upon YOUR progress, and not upon any so-called mystical "powers" - she is simply observing your conscious and unconscious reactions and thus reading YOU. It's your body language and your methods of responding to her that cue her "predictions" (which is exactly how these things work on the Surface, as well). All of which reveals that she is a skilled observer of people (as any good politician should be), but also a very deceptive one. She uses her observational skills to fuel belief in her deceptive claim of supernatural, paranormal or mystical abilities. She is a charlatan, and MUCH more dishonest than any Devil or Deviless I've met. Virginia seems like Diogenes' ideal by comparison. Virginia's end goal may be sugarcoated, but her method is honest. With Madame Shoshana, even the method is fraudulently presented, and her agenda is unclear, even by her own admission.

    [spoiler]A bit of investigation reveals that Madame Shoshana has clandestine dinners with Dr. Shlomo, at which she fills her notebook from their conversation. Make of this what you will, from lessons in observation to inside information on the workings of her clients/victims' minds.[/spoiler]

    Which brings us to Mrs. Plenty. Mrs. P is only too happy to give you her extremely scathing comments on Shoshana's chicanery, and yet she continues to employ her, and seems even to admire the latter's duplicity! Time spent conversing with Mrs. Plenty reveals her to be a coarse and hypocritical woman, whose dinner comes out of a brandy flask. Not the sort of person suited to the dignity of the office of Mayor. When you add to that her Seeking and her husband's ties to the Masters who brought about London's downfall, Virginia seems positively benevolent and stable by contrast.

    Mrs. Plenty is a passive agent for a hostile alien power which is bent on our eventual destruction as a people and a city. Remember that the Masters (on the whole) do not have London's best interest at heart, and are (mostly) eager to drop another city on our heads. The best you can say for Mrs. P. is that she wants a quietly disgraceful year to let them find one without interference. While Virginia may also be considered the agent of a hostile alien power, the difference is that it is not in Hell's interest to destroy London or humanity, only to harvest individual people. Which they do openly, and with their individual targets' explicit consent. Mrs. Plenty merely wants wealth and power for her own personal enjoyment, while our fair city awaits it's extinction at the hands of her family's backers.

    To sum up:
    Madame Shoshana: a demonstrable fraud. Her agenda is unclear even to herself (or so she claims).
    Mrs. Plenty: a vulgar, drunken, hypocritical agent of the Masters. Her agenda benefits only herself, and leads us sheeplike to our fair city's planned destruction.
    Virginia: an honest shepherd. True, some of the sheep are destined for slaughter. But the individual sheep choose that for themselves. The rest of us will gain strength from the process - strength which can serve us in fighting the real evils of charlatans and collaborators.

    As with a comic operetta, the harmless seeming characters are the real villains, and the apparent villain is the only decent choice. Topsy-Turvydom, indeed!

    --
    Ambition: Nemesis
    My darling lady-love,
    Lies cruelly slain above;
    To track her unknown killer I've descended,
    To London, in the Neath.
    And though I pass Hell's teeth,
    I'll see her slayer's foul existence ended!
    +1 link
    Sir Wensleydale of Hardwick
    Sir Wensleydale of Hardwick
    Posts: 194

    7/21/2019
    I say that anyone who is sane will root for Virginia at some point.

    --
    Sir Wensleydale of Hardwick- Riverside Regular, Newspaper Editor, Legendary Charisma.

    Mr Netae- SEEKING MR EATEN'S NAME

    Aaron Wimbleton- Private Detective. Some Medical Experience.

    https://www.fallenlondon.com/profile/Aaron%20Wimbleton
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    Doctor_Static
    Doctor_Static
    Posts: 55

    7/22/2019
    -:- Yggdrasil "Drazzle" Fawlty Psmyth -:- refutes, thusly ::

    Vorwoda Hawksby said:
    ""The accuracy of her romantic, artistic or investigative consultations is entirely dependent upon YOUR progress, and not upon any so-called mystical "powers" - she is simply observing your conscious and unconscious reactions and thus reading YOU.""

    Indeed, that IS part of the process of Insight - but you make vain manipulation of a subtle and scientific ART, i must say - reductionism misses the big picture.

    Furthermore ... You trivialize collaboration's cumulate value, sir! -- Why - i daresay i may brag for sooth - - That, with the Madame's mesmer-like aid - (via 'mere' "Romantic Predictions") - i have been exulted to a "Fascination" of 20th degree !! . . . Also, she and i have traded secrets at tangents, to facilitate certain Consulting-Detective investigations, to a transcendantly successful level. -- Methinks you but scorn a Wisdom that speaks best in metaphor rather than literal idiom - and perhaps are uninformed as to the Madame's history, and her profound connections to the Wise and Subtle.

    ((-SPOILERish: -:- As to Shoshana / Shlomo -:- You fail to mention that BOTH fill notebooks, when meeting! -:- Science and Art, in synergy, i'd say))

    -:- Drazzle -:- (( http://community.failbettergames.com/topic6-the-good-evening-thread-introduce-yourself-here.aspx?messageid=235960&Page=46#post235960 // https://www.fallenlondon.com/profile/Yggdrasil%20%22Drazzle%22%20Fawlty%20Psmyth/16479388 ))


    -:- VOTE SHOSHANA THE SHY SPHYNX - And Never be Riddled By Doubt Again !! -:-
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    edited by Doctor_Static on 7/22/2019
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    Doctor_Static
    Doctor_Static
    Posts: 55

    7/22/2019
    PS :: ((Yggdrasil "Drazzle" Fawlty Psmyth - again)) - As to Virginia - and Devils: - to quoth myself::

    -:- Virgina may be being diabolicly truthful, but is likely thus planning mass eugenics, with her "fitness salon" - to improve "average" health by eliminating the most [or least?] vulnerable - Tsk. -:-

    -:- To re-iterate, with nuance :: "Diabolicly Truthful" implies a literal factual, twisted in ulterior motive, real intent, and sinister result . . . No Matter "The Word" of the Contract - The Purpose is Evil, whether bared in the "Fine-Print", or no . . . DO be polite, but never trust a devil you can't see the menace of Nemesis in - for you ARE decieved.

    ((For my opine on All Candidates - see:: http://community.failbettergames.com/topic27528-the-mayoral-election-.aspx?messageid=239527&Page=7#post239527 ))

    Vote Shoshana for Future and Fortune !


    -:- Drazzle -:- (( http://community.failbettergames.com/topic6-the-good-evening-thread-introduce-yourself-here.aspx?messageid=235960&Page=46#post235960 // https://www.fallenlondon.com/profile/Yggdrasil%20%22Drazzle%22%20Fawlty%20Psmyth/16479388 ))
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    edited by Doctor_Static on 7/22/2019
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    Soriel
    Soriel
    Posts: 5

    7/22/2019
    I do agree with Vorwoda Hawksby on those points stated above, though I do think you manage to ignore a point I saw in one of these threads that Virginia may have more archeological concerns as well as public health. As I also won the chess game for the stones, I do believe you are correct when you say she has integrity, though the fact she was even interested in archeology shows that she's not your average soul-harvesting devil, I'm guessing here, but what if she's curious about our past? After all, aren't devils stuck in the Neath? Which means London's her only source for human history, which does also help another narrative that she won't try and get the 6th city dropped on our heads, since then there may be even less from our past to find. But honestly, with how new I am to FL, (been here less than a year) I'm not entirely certain if any of this is even marginally correct, feel free to inform me otherwise should I happen to be in the wrong on some or all of these statements!
    edited by Soriel on 7/22/2019
    edited by Soriel on 7/22/2019

    --
    A magnanimous and melancholy lieutenant who strives to learn secrets. Always up for roleplay and chess. Cheers to the constables! For keeping our minds safe from whatever used to be on the walls!
    0 link
    Doctor_Static
    Doctor_Static
    Posts: 55

    7/22/2019
    To ellucidate as minimally as possible, a summary sum-up of Devils, and, thus, of Virginia ::


    (in refferrence to another genre, of RPG, "Dungeons & Dragoons") ::

    -:- DEVILS are, definitively, and in essense and behavior, "LAWFUL EVIL" - ie: prone to organised maelevolence . . . They can be "trusted" to want a Contract, their own Dominion and heirarchy (or orderly means to dark ends) - But can Never be Trusted to intend Commonweal nor Good Intent . . .


    .
    edited by Doctor_Static on 7/22/2019
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    Pryno Belle
    Pryno Belle
    Posts: 14

    7/22/2019
    I get your points. I’m even starting to root for Virginia a bit now. Just a little. But let me give my analysis real quick. It is easily shaked: it is, after all, 2AM. But don’t dismiss it too easily. Consider it carefully, if only to counter the arguments.

    Virgina is a woman of science. One may even say that her interest for archeology is greater than her interest for soul. But is that comforting?

    Medecine is indeed a science. But those of high society said so themselves, in her flash lay: there is a price to be paid. It is unlikely, although possible, that they are talking about souls: spirifage will continue either way. Maybe or maybe not more frequently in hospitals and spas, as said earlier, but it is beside the point.

    Now, you are in 1897. Medecine as we know it doesn’t exist: treatments are at best risky, at worse deadly. But that is not what we are talking about here: it’s souls. Psychology is not yet a discipline, most mental problems have not been discovered yet (and some things, like homosexuality, are diagnosed as mental problems) and work structure is not yet compatible with healthy teamwork and passion (I could write a sociological thesis with what is wrong with work structure now, but let’s stay focused).

    In the case that Virginia is not interested in souls, but instead in science and medecine, here is the issue: she may be a devil, but nothing proves us that she has studied souls herself. She fought against humans, loyal to the Brass Embassy, which means that she was deloyal to Azura. She may never have been interested in the first place in serving the best souls to them, thus preparing them. That is a long shot, I admit. But why has she chosen Orthos as her right-hand man? Why not someone specialized in souls, another devil? Or even someone acquainted with the human’s mind or body, like the specialist in dreams that Shoshana likes so much? Because she is a woman of science. She needs someone who can collect the data she needs for her task, one way or another. Now, stealing the information on the treatment of souls will be no easy task: and, if it was for this purpose, why not ask another devil in the first place?

    Thus the second possible use for the services of a greedy, forceful and immoral scientist: research by good old trial-and-error. On who? Certainly not high society. The easier prey is the current one: the sick, the poor and the unlucky. Even if they use a better method, what is considered a success by both scientists? Happy soul? Tasty soul? Improved soul? What is considered a « flaw » in Carillon can be beneficial for the individual. Being brave or curious (stained), being determined (curdled), being indifferent to the other’s judgments (fermented). They can certainly be flaws, but not always. And even if you made an happy soul without flaws, is it still the same person? Both (experiments and their results) can be the price high society talked about.

    Now, let’s go on the opposite scenario: what if Virginia was more interested in souls than science? That might be better...or worse, depending of how you look at it. I doubt that she is interested in how it tastes, at least not entirely. She doesn’t want to please the Embassy either, that much is clear. That leaves us with the main use of souls in the Neath: Laws. Virginia is on her own here: some « devils of the streets » are following her because of juicier souls, but it’s not for them that she works. It’s for her own curiosity. What would happen if you let Virginia, a scientist, a cynical and curious one with Orthos, a selfish scientist, as her companion, mess with the rules of the world? Nothing good.

    Thank you for coming to my TED talk. Wine, souls and lobsters are at the entrance, so dig in!

    --
    A sweet smile for urchins. A deceitful grin for everyone else.

    A forensic doctor, gone to the Neath to pursue a relationship with a zailor. He has gone East, but she remains, the heart full of ambition.
    https://www.fallenlondon.com/profile/Pryno

    Available for social interactions, especially those that raise making waves.
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    Vorwoda Hawksby
    Vorwoda Hawksby
    Posts: 16

    7/22/2019
    Ah, My Dear Doctor Psmyth! Very nice to meet you! (Although in reading your "Good Evening" thread link, I must mention that "Across the Pale Parabola of Joy" is hardly the work of a Psmyth - or even a Shropshire Psmith - but rather of one Ralston McTodd. Tsk, tsk!)

    However, to the points at hand. You, sir, are quite correct when you state that I neglected to mention that Dr. Shlomo also comes away with copious notes. Their exchange IS, as you point out, two-sided, and I was remiss in not mentioning that. I can only say that since the good doctor is not a candidate, I considered his end of things of minor importance, but (as you rightly point out) he IS gaining information from her, too. However, that fact does not in any way imply a supernatural source for any information she may impart to him, and therefore, correcting my omission makes no difference in assessing Madame Shosana's sources of information. I reiterate that she is an excellent observer of human actions and reactions.

    However, as for your statement that I "make vain manipulation of a subtle and scientific ART", I flatly reject that assertion as mere poppycock from one who has been misled by the statistically probable even-chance "hits" of a practiced charlatan. When at university, I had a professor of mythology who found herself called upon to provide entertainment for a faculty party. In her class was a lady student of West Indian descent and exotic good looks. My professor asked the young lady if she would be willing to perform tarot readings at the party. The student replied that she was unfamiliar with the cards, and had no knowledge or experience in that area. The professor replied that she could teach her the names and symbolism of the cards in half an hour, but that the real trick to any fortune-telling lay in reading the reactions of the subject. You begin with general statements, and proceed (based on the subject's responses) to more specific ones. The young lady agreed and the professor received numerous compliments from her colleagues after the party about the girl's accuracy, ranging from "uncanny" to "amazing" to "frightening". Yet there was nothing mystical involved, simply an exercise in practical observation and psychology.

    I have myself had occasion to entertain with palmistry now and then (my usual repertoire tends toward operetta, theatre and poetry, but one takes the engagements that come one's way), and I have found the same to be true. The palmistry mumbo-jumbo is a mysterious framework with which to start a conversation with your subject, beginning from the absurdly general to the increasingly specific by means of attention to and amplification of their own responses. An exotic accent and an eccentric costume help, too. Note, that I do this purely as an entertainer, and not as a spiritual adviser. So, from experience, sir, I reiterate that any success you may have had from consulting Madame Shoshana is due to good luck on your part, and to good observation on hers. As to the rest, balderdash!

    As for the "Diabolically Truthful" nature of Devils that you mention, you are quite correct to point out the literal nature of that concept. They are true to the letter, not necessarily to the intent. It is always incumbent upon the other party to carefully examine any contract. Caveat Emptor, after all!

    Again, a pleasure to meet you, Doctor!

    [EDIT: typos]
    edited by Vorwoda Hawksby on 7/22/2019

    --
    Ambition: Nemesis
    My darling lady-love,
    Lies cruelly slain above;
    To track her unknown killer I've descended,
    To London, in the Neath.
    And though I pass Hell's teeth,
    I'll see her slayer's foul existence ended!
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    Doctor_Static
    Doctor_Static
    Posts: 55

    7/22/2019
    Most persipicatious Citizen and pundit - Professor Vorwoda Hawksby - Honoured, indeed! - ((A quick aside - As to my "Good Evening" thread link, you mention my extended clan's ode "Across the Pale Parabola of Joy" which is not the work the Psmyth branch, no - BUT it is, in fact, that of a Shropshire Psmith - whose "Nom de Guerre" became an impromptu "Nom de Plume", composing and performing as said "Ralston McTodd", as it happenned - The publishing rights may have become confused since - it's a tale retold to suit nuance, in the clans Psmyth, Psmith, and kin. MOST erudite and engaging of you to share your familiarity, however - Gladly met, indeed!)) ... Pardon the derail, fellow PhiloSoph, allow me a breath to review your eloquence, and rejoin a few points


    . . . Ah - rather, i see less to quibble, overall, but perhaps your own epistemic worldview or dialectic, in consideration of Matters Numinous, as it were . . . the Occam's-Razor-redux weilding Materialist needn't oppose the rational but symbollicly gnostic Psychological Mystic . . . But, i must admit - others have spoken better, on madame Shoshana's behalf - with greater depth of backgroud data than i can muster ((In her seperate candidate debate thread)) - so i must beg off, from fairly rallying to your eloquence, at this venue, for the nonce ((Must admit some fatigue, being amidst a sticky-wicket, of Spider-Council entanglement, and really must put away the quill and noteband a bat with this jot)) ... May we debate further - and mayhap share a coffee and converse, fortuitously, my good sir! -:- Yr Hmbl Svnt -:- Drazzle -:-
    .
    edited by Doctor_Static on 7/22/2019
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    Jolanda Swan
    Jolanda Swan
    Posts: 1444

    7/22/2019
    So much sophistry to sugarcoat the fact that there is a group among us that wants to eat our souls.

    For all their Republican talk, the Devils are just an openly cruel version of the aristocrats in Fallen London. They live in luxury, charm the crowds, torment whomever they choose with their hunts, and often swoop down upon us and come up with our souls in their talons. For all the talk of fair deals, they never even offer something of value in its stead. Plus, come on. They are NOT being truthful when they claim the soul has no value, that it's just a nuisance. They just show you the abstraction to prove it's not painful at all.

    Yet despite their uselesness, somehow we are supposed to put one in charge, because she kept her word not to kill us... after she tried to kill us... and after we beat her at chess? The very fact that she tries to kill and rob you (a dealbreaker for sane people) is suddenly not a crime, but proof of academic brilliance! And her not trying to kill you a third time, is proof of sterling character! Yup.

    Why not say it like it is? She is a beautiful, imposing veteran revolutionary with real charm. She is out of a novel - the Princess General. Take her out of the equation, see what she has to offer - a spa? Any other candidate would be laughed out of the room.
    edited by Jolanda Swan on 7/22/2019

    --
    Lover of all things beautiful, secret admirer of ugly truths, fond of the Parabola Sun... and always delighted to role play.
    http://fallenlondon.com/profile/Jolanda%20Swan
    +4 link
    Jeremiah Oathes
    Jeremiah Oathes
    Posts: 72

    7/22/2019
    Jolanda Swan wrote:
    see what she has to offer - a spa? Any other candidate would be laughed out of the room.
    I forgot to point that out before. We don't need to take the risk in making a natural enemy of us Mayor to build a spa. We could get permission from the Masters and build it ourselves. There are a great many quite wealthy individuals in Fallen London, so collecting a few ten-thousand Echoes in donations should be no big problem.

    asinineFlatfoot wrote:
    What's to stop us from taking her kindness and running away with it? Would a position as Mayor really poise her so to massacre us without any resistance? Are we that powerless that we would let that happen?

    And I thought you know how Devils operate. They will do it in any way they can get away with. Smart, smooth, beguiling. We will be frogs in boiling water, comfortable and naive until it's too late. And regarding the "powerlessness" - I'm SO GLAD that we solved that Spirifer problem once and for all. I am SO HAPPY that the Devils are not able to manipulate many of us into conspiring and working against their own. Unconceivable what could happen if they were able to act that subtle. Yes, let's give them a platform and high visibility. I'm sure, Viginia will make it obvious for us when we need to act to rescue our society (and souls).

    You know, as if the Masters weren't a problem big enough. But, thank God, they aren't this sneaky.
    edited by Jeremiah Oathes on 7/22/2019

    --
    Dr Jeremiah Oathes - Natural Philosopher, Alchemist and Anatomist (part-time). Occasionally in Service to the Crown and the Bazaar. Would like to dissect a Master (for science and mad laughter).
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    Sir Wensleydale of Hardwick
    Sir Wensleydale of Hardwick
    Posts: 194

    7/22/2019
    Jolanda Swan wrote:
    So much sophistry to sugarcoat the fact that there is a group among us that wants to eat our souls.

    For all their Republican talk, the Devils are just an openly cruel version of the aristocrats in Fallen London.


    That's probably more of a criticism of the Society rather than of Hell.

    They live in luxury, charm the crowds, torment whomever they choose with their hunts,


    Those first two things are also done by self-respecting members of Society. The hunts, on the other hand... Most of the time, [spoiler]the people who are hunted have sold them stained souls, which have no value to them.[/spoiler]

    and often swoop down upon us and come up with our souls in their talons. For all the talk of fair deals, they never even offer something of value in its stead. Plus, come on. They are NOT being truthful when they claim the soul has no value, that it's just a nuisance. They just show you the abstraction to prove it's not painful at all.


    I realize that two Devils in particular are willing to just up and take your soul, but other than that, they will always offer something in return. Like, say, a large diamond. And later, some very comfortable lodging.

    Yet despite their uselesness, somehow we are supposed to put one in charge, because she kept her word not to kill us... after she tried to kill us... and after we beat her at chess? The very fact that she tries to kill and rob you (a dealbreaker for sane people) is suddenly not a crime, but proof of academic brilliance! And her not trying to kill you a third time, is proof of sterling character! Yup.


    To be fair, this point makes a lot of sense. Of course, she hadn't offered this deal before then. And also, Devils aren't necessarily useless. Some of them do Notable work for the Bazaar.

    Why not say it like it is? She is a beautiful, imposing veteran revolutionary with real charm. She is out of a novel - the Princess General. Take her out of the equation, see what she has to offer - a spa? Any other candidate would be laughed out of the room.
    edited by Jolanda Swan on 7/22/2019


    And they were. That is, against more competent candidates. And the Contrarian is part of the Calendar Council. That didn't prevent his election as mayor last year.

    --
    Sir Wensleydale of Hardwick- Riverside Regular, Newspaper Editor, Legendary Charisma.

    Mr Netae- SEEKING MR EATEN'S NAME

    Aaron Wimbleton- Private Detective. Some Medical Experience.

    https://www.fallenlondon.com/profile/Aaron%20Wimbleton
    0 link
    Jolanda Swan
    Jolanda Swan
    Posts: 1444

    7/22/2019
    So let me clarify then.


    Between the Devils and Society:

    Of course my statement is not a criticism of aristocrats ONLY. I am comparing the worst of aristocrats to all the devils in London. As in, the Devils in Fallen London are as bad as the worst of aristos. All privilege, nothing to offer to the community, and the idea that they can grab what they want as long as they stay marginally within the law and wear pretty hats.
    Human aristocrats of course come in all kinds - you may find the compassionate one or the helpful one. Devils? Not so much.


    The hunts:
    Sure. They hunt people with a certain attribute most of the time. So? Is it now fine to hunt any kind of people for sport? I had no idea!



    The Soul and the bauble:

    Now, the Devils do offer you a large diamond. Of course, they carefully conceal just how precious your own soul is, of course, and the fact that compared to that, they offer something paltry in return. (OOC: I understand the paltriness of the reward to be a good choice of game design , by the way). You, the player, supposedly have a choice whether to sell or not, as you don't really need money, but in a society Adrift in a Sea of Misery, Londoners have to choose between eating and keeping their souls.


    The Notable people:

    The Devils never offer anything of value to society. If their only contribution to London is the dreaded Notability grind that most Londoners hate... well, not exactly a point in their favor.



    But people Voted for the Contrarian!:

    I agree that the Contrarian's participation in the council was a point against him. But the Contrarian is human. Which means he is pretty layered and so far his track record was, well, humane. It was plausible he wanted to do a good job in the city he lived in. The Devils on the other hand have never shown a sliver of humanity.

    I mean, last year our choice was between Hell, a Monster and the Contrarian. Not like we had a choice whether to vote for him, really.

    So no. I must insist that strengthening a Devil (even if just by becoming happy test subjects) and normalizing their influence in society is a bad, bad idea that will not End Well.
    edited by Jolanda Swan on 7/22/2019

    --
    Lover of all things beautiful, secret admirer of ugly truths, fond of the Parabola Sun... and always delighted to role play.
    http://fallenlondon.com/profile/Jolanda%20Swan
    +6 link
    Seon
    Seon
    Posts: 28

    7/22/2019
    Virginia is a mean old lady, even if she’s competent. She’s also rather an elitist snob at that.

    Shoshana seems to be genuinely nice when you talk to her, so she gets my tentative support.
    0 link
    Vorwoda Hawksby
    Vorwoda Hawksby
    Posts: 16

    7/22/2019
    My dear Miss Belle,

    You paint a pair of interesting scenarios, and I must say that my one real concern with Virginia's campaign is Dr. Orthos' presence. Particularly a comment he made to me today when I officially joined Virginia's campaign, that with Virginia busy in politics, there will be one less competitor for him in the Forgotten Quarter. Personally, I'm hoping she has him scheduled for Abstraction, to show the Brass Embassy a concrete example of just how much human souls need improvement!

    My dear Miss Swan,


    As to the Hunts...
    I'm sorry to hear you characterize the Hunts as mere sport. As the good Sir Wensleydale circumspectly remarked, most victims have swindled the Devils, and the Hunts are a means of RETURNING damaged goods. Nothing is taken from the quarry - quite the contrary. There is no moral difference between the usual FQ Hunt and a constable tracking down a confidence trickster. In both cases, a malefactor is pursued, and justice is done.

    I admit that sometimes mistakes occur. I myself was once unjustly the quarry in a Devil's Hunt, while on an expedition to the Foreign Quarter. It was a case of mistaken identity. I'm quite certain that the Devil whose fancy hat I shot off during the incident won't make such an unfortunate mistake again! As with any legal system, miscarriages of just DO occasionally occur. But on the whole, justice is done, and the criminals get their just desserts.

    And my point about the chess game was was intended to show that she has a history of honesty. Yes she tried to kill us before. She had previously made no promise not to. Multiple human residents of our fair city have tried to kill me, too. So, no moral high-ground for humanity there. But Virginia abides by her agreements, even when it is to her own disadvantage. It is this personal integrity and honesty that places her far above an inveterate fraud like Madame Shoshana.

    And while (as I mentioned) the benefits to London of Virginia's plan may be incidental, they ARE concrete benefits for us, which places her plan miles ahead of the Do-Nothing-While-Doom-Approaches plan of the Masters' puppet Mrs. Plenty. Good Lord, the few of us who survive THAT may end up serving France! The horror!
    edited by Vorwoda Hawksby on 7/22/2019

    --
    Ambition: Nemesis
    My darling lady-love,
    Lies cruelly slain above;
    To track her unknown killer I've descended,
    To London, in the Neath.
    And though I pass Hell's teeth,
    I'll see her slayer's foul existence ended!
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