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Election 1897: Madame Shoshana Messages in this topic - RSS

Anne Auclair
Anne Auclair
Posts: 2215

7/17/2019


Madame Shoshana announced her candidacy in the horoscopes page of the London Gazette: you will have the opportunity to vote for Shoshana in the upcoming Election. This was followed by a prediction that a woman would be the next mayor, and a warning that bats are in the Sixth House.


The discussion thread for Madame Shoshana's campaign.

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Diptych
Diptych
Administrator
Posts: 3409

7/17/2019
She could be a genuine prophet and a fraud. Just 'cause someone can see the future doesn't stop them from committing fraud.

--
Sir Frederick, the Libertarian Esotericist. Lord Hubris, the Bloody Baron.
Juniper Brown, the Ill-Fated Orphan. Esther Ellis-Hall, the Fashionable Fabian.
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Cooper
Cooper
Posts: 61

7/18/2019
I am definitely backing Shoshana here, but that is partially due to lack of other suitable candidates.

Mrs. Plenty just annoys me - her carnival is notoriously shoddy when it is not outright sinister, and I consider being a former Seeker to be an anti-credential. As for London going on vacation? Please. Next!

Virginia ... is a devil. To her credit, she does at least physically exist. However, I less-than-fondly remember my competition against her for some Correspondence Stones. I stormed her camp, won, and was extremely disappointed I did not end her then and there. My attitude towards her has not improved. I still want her dead. Moreover, Dr. Orthos is one of her associates. I want him dead, too. Her campaign and the people running it have personally offended me ... and that's even before getting into the sheer folly of having a DEVIL run London. "Calisthenics for the soul?" Yes, get your soul in top shape before I steal it from you. Fools.

As for Shoshana ... her intentions are good. I would not see London end. She is not a fraud - she engages in fraudulent behavior as a business model, not when she actually wants to know something or affect a change. Her vagueness is irritating, but I'll much take it over Virginia's smugness or Mrs. Plenty's gap-toothed churlishness.

So sail on, Shoshana! This Paramount Presence will do what he can to stem the inevitable tide of Paris for as long as he can.

--
Padraig Cooper,
Remorseful Opportunist. https://www.fallenlondon.com/profile/Padraig%20Cooper
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Jolanda Swan
Jolanda Swan
Posts: 1476

7/17/2019
Yes, my mistake. While working on the carnival, she makes her living with hot readings. I have been frustrated many times myself. In some occasions however, including the elections card, he is shown, to have an actual ability to make predictions.
Of course, this doesn't mean she is capable of defending London from the fate she sees in her visions. I am simply leaning towards her because, well, she is not a devil. Which is good.

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0bsidian Fire
0bsidian Fire
Posts: 113

7/17/2019
Given the nature of Fallen London, "Maybe Magic, Maybe Mundane" is about as good as you can get it. Either Shoshana has a really good mundane information network (which for anyone looking to get anywhere in Fallen London is a must) or she has some mystic knowledge about how the world/neath/universe actually works (which is also very helpful for getting anywhere in Fallen London). Or she has both.

What I can say having done both the Shroud and Glass stories as far as I could take them until I had to pick a side (played both sides of the War of Illusions) is that at least with Shoshana working for the Shroud, we know she isn't in cahoots with the Fingerkings. Quite the opposite in fact, given what the Shroud is trying to do.

[spoiler]The Shroud are frauds, in the classical sense of the term. There is nothing "supernatural" about them. All of their info is gotten by mundane information networks and their Seances are nothing but elaborate parlor tricks (no mirrors though!). What gets interesting is what they use it for. As far as I can tell from the Shroud story, they use the information they get to help people in Fallen London get emotional closure for various things (especially people left on the Surface). They also do not say no to any tips or payment people give them. On the flip side, they don't ask for the payment either, even if they do look for wealthy patrons on purpose. So are they frauds? Yes. Are they being overly obnoxious about it? Probably not. Is something that really doesn't have humanities best interest in mind taking advantage of the Shroud? No, unless you count the cats...

This is in contrast to the Glass, who are in cahoots with the Fingerkings who admit that they are stage magicians and have people pay them to be stage magicians. Of course... there "stage" magic makes heavy use of mirrors. This also means the Fingerkings get a steady supply of humans hosts for them from the audiences they are preforming for... and yes... the Glass Magicians are aware of this and do it anyway.[/spoiler]

There's probably a discussion to be had here about what is really considered "mystic" about the Fallen London setting. Are Fingerkings "mystic"? Are Devils? Are Judgements or the Correspondence "mystic"? In some sense they are, but in another sense, those are all beings of "mundane" physics in Fallen London. Stars are beings that enforce the laws of the universe with a language made of light. Devils are really the servants of a Judgement who rebelled and yet still can't help carrying out their original purpose (making all those souls taste good to eat). Fingerkings Are Not and can't exist in the Is.

--
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The Curious Watcher
The Curious Watcher
Posts: 130

7/18/2019
What good is a healthy soul under the weight of the Sixth City?

What good is a carnival if it ends up as the next Forgotten Quarter?

Save London! Support Shoshana, or doom will come to us all!

--
Den Blackwell, Paramount
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The Silent Vake Hunter: GONE NORTH
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Jolanda Swan
Jolanda Swan
Posts: 1476

7/21/2019
I also think that Failbetter should provide a clearer narrative on her - the clues are there, but you have to be a sleuth to put them all together.

Soshana is:
anti-Fingerking
anti-London's imminent destruction.

She tries to provide solace to people by providing them with emotional closure after a tragic story. For that puprose she sometimes uses fraud, but the final goal is inner peace.

She works with Dr Schlomo to that end.

She can separate truth from fiction.

Cons: she appears to be too scattered to actually convey her message, which makes you wonder if she will be capable to actually put her plans into motion if she is elected.

Am I forgetting anything?

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silurica
silurica
Posts: 132

7/21/2019
Jolanda Swan wrote:
When one city falls, the other is crashed underneath it. This is why we find relics of the previous cities. So it doesn't matter how healthy the city will be.
Now, as to what Shoshana can do to prevent this... she is aligned with factions fighting against the Masters, who are the ones trying to steal Paris and drop it on our heads. So there is that.

Popping into this election discussion here to point out, we don't know yet where Shoshana's loyalty lies outside of the Shroud. Asking about her platform has her representative reveal that she plans to work with the Ministry, which might lead one to believe she's with the Masters/Bazaar's side, but perhaps not necessarily so (the Jovial Contrarian said hi to the constables). She works with Dr Schlomo, but we aren't sure who Schlomo is with either aside of the many cats in his office (there are theories, but I'm speaking strictly of proven fact here). Her goal to "stave off the end" is in direct conflict with the interests of the powers that be, but her plan as we know it so far will aid them instead...

It's all vague and confusing, just like her predictions. I'm looking forward to new information about her that will be revealed next week, I think whatever we will learn will potentially make or break my vote for her. She's the most interesting candidate, if not the most competent.
edited by silurica on 7/21/2019

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Meika Osborne, the Reckless Researcher
Leonard West, the Scarlet Informant
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Anne Auclair
Anne Auclair
Posts: 2215

7/22/2019
Seon wrote:
Well isn’t Madame Shoshana connected with the constabulary? They say that trying to expose her as a fraud to the police gets the higher ups to immediately silence the matter.

Or maybe she has dirt on all of them. I dunnow.

The court system itself is technically Society (the Judge for instance), and she has lots of Society customers who genuinely like her and/or don't want to be dragged through the mud by association (in game terms she'd have a lot of Favors in High Places and Blackmail Material). So she's pretty much untouchable. And, in all fairness, is anything she does really worth the constabulary's time?
.
edited by Anne Auclair on 7/22/2019

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string
string
Posts: 11

7/29/2019
As someone who didn't vote for Madame Shoshana mainly because of risks related to Arbor (along with the plan to get the Ministry involved), Shoshana's warning to "Be careful in Arbor, my dear" suddenly has me very interested.


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    Dudebro Pyro
    Dudebro Pyro
    Posts: 710

    7/18/2019
    Would you say the Khanate has been defeated?

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    Spare Starveling Kitties always welcome. I collect them.
    For that matter, send me your unwanted cat boxes too.
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    Julius de Poisson
    Julius de Poisson
    Posts: 28

    7/18/2019
    Miriam Plenty promises a rest for London - and while it's eyes are closed will steal it's wallet and hat. And shoes.

    Virginia will administer calisthenics and a tonic, making sure our souls are fresh... and sweet... and plump...

    Shosana sees the coming calamity and wants to avert it. If the 6th city is to be kept from our heads best we start talking about it. Now.

    --
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    menaulon
    menaulon
    Posts: 98

    7/18/2019
    If you ask Shoshana about her plans, this is what she says: https://www.fallenlondon.com/profile/Mstislav/16474246
    [spoiler] Focus on love means she most likely plans to prolong London through established means, giving enough love stories to the Masters that Bazaar stays satisfied with London for longer. Of course, some Masters want for the Sixth City to Fall as soon as possible, so it is not clear whether this would succeed. The meddling might also make stories worthless, like what had happened with Jack. Shoshana's plan is not an outwardly Revolutionary one, but more time for London means that there is more time for all other plans. [/spoiler] I don't see real red flags with Madame Shoshana so far, but we will have to wait for the second week to get a full look.

    --
    Menaulon
    Open to social actions, but would prefer to be betrayed in the search for Photographer.
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    Jolanda Swan
    Jolanda Swan
    Posts: 1476

    7/17/2019
    I imagine that even her current prediction might be hot reading. If the player character can find out about it, then someone as well-connected as Soshana can do it too.

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    Jolanda Swan
    Jolanda Swan
    Posts: 1476

    7/17/2019
    So, I just got her card with enough reputation to make the last choice, and... no, she is not a fraud. Interesting.

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    Chamberlain1012
    Chamberlain1012
    Posts: 2

    7/17/2019
    I don't believe that her precise source of information is relevant to her suitability as a candidate. Clearly, she's getting good information from somewhere. The key issue at hand is whether she is able to do anything about the very real danger that she foretells. The answer to that is no, not only because of the metaplot, but also because of the proposed solution to this future disaster: involving the Ministry of Public Decency, which is Mr. Pages' private fiefdom. Needless to say, this is rather like asking the CIA to stop the Bay of Pigs invasion. Quite aside from her rather charming characterization and good sources, there's simply no way she can do what she promised the way she promises, and so I would say she isn't an effective candidate.
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    Jolanda Swan
    Jolanda Swan
    Posts: 1476

    7/17/2019
    Oh, I hadn't realized that Shroud's agenda was that benevolent. Well, that kind of... cements my decision to vote for Soshana.
    And the information pairs well with the sudden clarity she displays when you accuse her of being a fraud.

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    Jolanda Swan
    Jolanda Swan
    Posts: 1476

    7/23/2019
    I understand that she is going to guide people into Parabola, which chimes with her agenda. The Shepherd is self-evident, while the Rose and the Reflection in the Mirror suggest, of course, Parabola itself.
    edited by Jolanda Swan on 7/23/2019

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    Anne Auclair
    Anne Auclair
    Posts: 2215

    7/29/2019
    Here's my attempt to decode Madam Shoshana's tarot fortunes.
    [spoiler] Sinning Jenny is drawn the Rose, the Lady and the Ship.

    The Rose and Lady are Zodiac signs, so lets start with them.

    The Rose can be received in two ways, by being an artist or a cold blooded killer.

    Are you an artist? wrote:
    'The Rose belongs to the glacial group of signs,' says Madame Shoshana. 'You are intuitive, and feel empathy for all unfortunates.'

    Are you a stone cold killer? wrote:
    'The Rose belongs to the glacial group of signs,' says Madame Shoshana. 'You are intuitive and insightful.'

    Jenny is both intuitive and empathetic. She'a also a performer and a Vake hunter. So this seems to fit her.

    The Lady in contrast can be awarded to hedonists and adventurous sorts.
    Are you a Hedonist? wrote:
    'The Lady belongs to the igneous group of signs,' says Madame Shoshana. 'You have a tendency towards impulsiveness, which you should curb.'


    Are you an Adventurer? wrote:
    'The Lady belongs to the igneous group of signs,' says Madame Shoshana. 'You are often the most charming person in the room.'

    So the Lady is someone who is both impulsive and charismatic. This does not fit with Jenny, who for all her salaciousness is incredibly controlled, so it would seem to match a second person. And while the Vake might be impulsive, is it charming? Now Mr. Wines on the other hand, can be impulsive and is certainly charming (he regularly holds parties after all).

    The Ship is not a Zodiac sign, but ships are synonymous with travel and the Unterzee is associated with danger, so this card has something of a risky journey about it. Now, as Jenny was asking about the past, her question might involve unfinished business with the Sisterhood, whose citadel happens to reside across the Zee, and who sent Jenny on a quest to mission to London.

    Perhaps Jenny has to get something from Wines?

    The Empress's fortune is a little easier, as all her cards, the Spider, the Lantern, and the Cat, are in the Zodiac.

    The Spider is dealt to artists and animal lovers.

    Are you an artist? wrote:
    'The Spider belongs to the glacial group of signs,' says Madame Shoshana. 'You embrace the life of the mind, I think. Always be respectful towards match-sellers and penny-dreadful pedlars.'

    Are you an animal lover? wrote:
    'The Spider belongs to the glacial group of signs,' says Madame Shoshana. 'You are often rather emotional. Perhaps even hysterical. The colour of mould that grows behind wardrobes is comforting to you.'

    So, very intellectual but also emotional. Unhelpful. Though the Empress's devotion to her husband, more an idea at this point than an actual living person, and her emotional sale of London to get him back might fit here.

    The Lantern is given to hedonists and philanthropists.

    Are you a hedonist? wrote:
    'The Lantern belongs to the igneous group of signs,' says Madame Shoshana. 'You are creative. And you have passion for your craft.'

    Are you a philanthropist? wrote:
    'The Lantern belongs to the igneous group of signs,' says Madame Shoshana. 'You are excessively creative.'

    Of all the people the Empress might ask about, this sounds a lot like the Regretful Sculptress. She is the only one of the imperial family that one can describe as creative with a passion for their craft (and the only one who'd be described as having a craft, for that matter). Alternatively, this card could present a challenge or problem that needs an extremely creative solution.


    The Cat is given to philanthropists and adventurers.
    Are you a philanthropist? wrote:
    'The Cat belongs to the igneous group of signs,' says Madame Shoshana. 'You have a rather artistic bent, have you not?'

    Are you an adventurer? wrote:
    The Cat belongs to the igneous group of signs,' says Madame Shoshana. 'You are sometimes overly idealistic. This is a good thing.'

    So, someone artistic and devoted to higher ideals.

    And Shoshana suggests Mrs. Plenty for something! Though she hedges like crazy.
    Shoshana wrote:
    Mrs Plenty is the surest bet. Not the wisest. But the surest.

    Mrs. Plenty is arguably artistic and, um, idealistic, for a certain definition of idealism...

    So, one reading, the Empress has a problem with her daughter and needs someone who can help resolve it. It might just be they need a buyer for some statues, but it's probably something a little bit deeper than that. Alternatively, the Empress has a problem that requires a creative solution by an artistic and idealistic (gulp) personage.

    Shoshana's signs are the Shepherd, the Rose, and the Mirror's Edge. The last, again, is not a Zodiac card, though it doesn't seem particularly difficult to interpret. We've already gone over Rose with Sinning Jenny, so that just leaves Shepherd.

    Criminal masterminds and gamblers get this one!
    Are you a criminal mastermind? wrote:
    'The Shepherd belongs to the speleothemic group of signs,' says Madame Shoshana. 'You are ruled by logic, I think.'

    Are you a gambler? wrote:
    'The Shepherd belongs to the speleothemic group of signs,' says Madame Shoshana. 'You are extremely articulate.'

    Logical and articulate. I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest this represents how Shoshana views herself :P

    Rose, intuition and empathy, this could easily represent love. The Mirror's Edge obviously represents the Mirror Marches/Parabola. Shoshana in search of the answer contained in love will have to dive into Parabola.

    [/spoiler]

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    Anne Auclair
    Anne Auclair
    Posts: 2215

    7/20/2019
    Virginia thinks that Shoshana is telling the truth about the fortune telling btw. For her, what makes Shoshana a criminal is not fraud but trespass into things people should not know.

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    Jolanda Swan
    Jolanda Swan
    Posts: 1476

    7/18/2019
    When one city falls, the other is crashed underneath it. This is why we find relics of the previous cities. So it doesn't matter how healthy the city will be.
    Now, as to what Shoshana can do to prevent this... she is aligned with factions fighting against the Masters, who are the ones trying to steal Paris and drop it on our heads. So there is that.

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    silurica
    silurica
    Posts: 132

    7/21/2019
    I don't consider Mr Fires in that since he's not the majority and neither he is the one holding upmost authority; that would be the Bazaar. But now you brought him up, that is another peculiarity about Shoshana's plan. Her goal lines up with Fires, but her plan regarding love (stories) is the opposite of his.

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    Lady Sapho Byron
    Lady Sapho Byron
    Posts: 725

    7/22/2019
    I adore London and will do whatever is needed to keep it safe from Paris and the Night. That said, I'm not sure Madame Shoshana will be terribly effective in warding these off as a mayor. That said, I still support her, and for a reason that has received little or no comment: she would, undoubtedly, be the most entertaining mayor our fair city has yet elected.

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    Seon
    Seon
    Posts: 28

    7/22/2019
    I was barely aware of Shoshana but she seems to be a quite kind and nice old lady, even if she’s a fraud. She gets my tentative vote compared to our two other horrid choices.
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    Jolanda Swan
    Jolanda Swan
    Posts: 1476

    7/23/2019
    Sinning Jenny visits Soshana often as it seems (or so my Fate option on Soshana suggests, among other things).
    Well, not that I needed any more convincing, but If I did, that would be it.

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    phryne
    phryne
    Posts: 1228

    7/23/2019
    SPOILERS: Here's the Madame Shoshana 12-Fate option.

    Besides wiping Scandal, it gave 1x Blackmail Material, 5x Reputation and ~25 CP MW.

    Anyone care to guess on the meaning of the readings? I'm afraid those tarot cards are impregnable to me...
    edited by phryne on 7/23/2019

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    0bsidian Fire
    0bsidian Fire
    Posts: 113

    7/17/2019
    Echo of what Mrs. Plenty thinks of Shoshana: https://www.fallenlondon.com/profile/Kharagal%20Mierqid/16466879

    --
    Kharagal Mierqid - Bohemian Correspondent who is obsessed with the Language of Stars...
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    Anne Auclair
    Anne Auclair
    Posts: 2215

    7/17/2019
    Azothi wrote:
    For the most part, she fits into a "maybe magic, maybe mundane" archetype, though she has been proven to be a fraud in some aspects of her business.

    Oh, there's definitely magic. There's plenty of evidence that she's a dreamer. In Parabola you can spy on anything happening in front of a mirror, get glimpses of possible futures, find evidence of previous civilizations, see into other people's dreams, and even get visions of the dead. These are all things that mediums claim to do.

    This information though is often not very useful in everyday fortune telling. Pay a visit to Doctor Schlomo if you want an illustration of why that is. Everyday Londoners have very practical concerns and problems. Shoshana has powers, but not the powers to reliably provide these ready made answers - so she resorts to other methods to make a living.

    0bsidian Fire wrote:

    What I can say having done both the Shroud and Glass stories as far as I could take them until I had to pick a side (played both sides of the War of Illusions) is that at least with Shoshana working for the Shroud, we know she isn't in cahoots with the Fingerkings. Quite the opposite in fact, given what the Shroud is trying to do.


    Yeah, the fact she's not on good terms with our snake friends is a knock against her.

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    MrBreaksIt
    MrBreaksIt
    Posts: 18

    7/18/2019
    I was distrustful of the Fingerkings, but wasn't aware of exactly how malevolent they were and am now rethinking my glass affiliation.

    Ironically, I joined up with them because I thought the Shroud were up to something.

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    Siankan
    Siankan
    Posts: 847

    7/17/2019
    Jolanda Swan wrote:
    Also, are any of her other predictions genuine? I mean 'bats are in the Sixth House' sounds silly but then, she is talking about the Masters being in London which makes sense.

    I could see that being a reference to the Masters in a vacuum but Mame Shoshana is one of the inventors of Chiropteromancy. The bats (like the sun to Surface astrologers) are always in one House or another.
    Of course, if the bats are in the Sixth House, somebody better move his investments out of Paris. London is the Fifth City, after all.

    --
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    Jolanda Swan
    Jolanda Swan
    Posts: 1476

    7/17/2019
    Just wondering: apart from her really disturbing (and as we know true) prediction about the future of London, what else do we know about her?
    Also, are any of her other predictions genuine? I mean 'bats are in the Sixth House' sounds silly but then, she is talking about the Masters being in London which makes sense. Are we missing something?

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    Anne Auclair
    Anne Auclair
    Posts: 2215

    7/17/2019
    Jolanda Swan wrote:
    Just wondering: apart from her really disturbing (and as we know true) prediction about the future of London, what else do we know about her?

    She's a leading figure in the Shroud and the Glass like to prank her by stealing her tarot cards. She has an irregular column in the Gazette, so she works for Mr. Huffam as well as Mrs. Plenty. She employs urchin spies to collect information for her and might get Surface intelligence via Great Game contacts.

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    Cooper
    Cooper
    Posts: 61

    7/18/2019
    Catherine Raymond wrote:
    Julius de Poisson wrote:
    Miriam Plenty promises a rest for London - and while it's eyes are closed will steal it's wallet and hat. And shoes.

    <snip>

    Mrs. Plenty hardly needs to steal anything from London; the success of her Carnival shows that Londoners are willing to give money generously, and quite willingly, to her. The same might even be said of Virginia, given how many Society ladies eagerly seek out "Abstraction" as the devils call it. Mme. Shoshana may be serious about attempting to prevent the coming of the Sixth City from destroying London, but it's hard to see what she could do to stop it.


    More than nothing. And it is pleasing to see this issue at the very least recognized. This is one of the reasons I voted for the Contrarian, God bless him.

    --
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