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Election 1897: Madame Shoshana Messages in this topic - RSS

Anne Auclair
Anne Auclair
Posts: 2215

7/17/2019


Madame Shoshana announced her candidacy in the horoscopes page of the London Gazette: you will have the opportunity to vote for Shoshana in the upcoming Election. This was followed by a prediction that a woman would be the next mayor, and a warning that bats are in the Sixth House.


The discussion thread for Madame Shoshana's campaign.

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Jolanda Swan
Jolanda Swan
Posts: 1482

7/17/2019
Just wondering: apart from her really disturbing (and as we know true) prediction about the future of London, what else do we know about her?
Also, are any of her other predictions genuine? I mean 'bats are in the Sixth House' sounds silly but then, she is talking about the Masters being in London which makes sense. Are we missing something?

--
Lover of all things beautiful, secret admirer of ugly truths, fond of the Parabola Sun... and always delighted to role play.
http://fallenlondon.com/profile/Jolanda%20Swan
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Anne Auclair
Anne Auclair
Posts: 2215

7/17/2019
Jolanda Swan wrote:
Just wondering: apart from her really disturbing (and as we know true) prediction about the future of London, what else do we know about her?

She's a leading figure in the Shroud and the Glass like to prank her by stealing her tarot cards. She has an irregular column in the Gazette, so she works for Mr. Huffam as well as Mrs. Plenty. She employs urchin spies to collect information for her and might get Surface intelligence via Great Game contacts.

--
http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Anne%20Auclair
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Azothi
Azothi
Posts: 527

7/17/2019
Jolanda Swan wrote:
Also, are any of her other predictions genuine? I mean 'bats are in the Sixth House' sounds silly but then, she is talking about the Masters being in London which makes sense. Are we missing something?
Her predictions are classic hot reading for the most part, as she receives intelligence from her various contacts. This creates an illusion of magic and mysticism, as she has access to information that audience is not informed that she is aware of.

For the most part, she fits into a "maybe magic, maybe mundane" archetype, though she has been proven to be a fraud in some aspects of her business.

--
Azoth I, the Amaranthine Wanderer - Midnighter - A Paramount Presence (not currently accepting new Proteges)
Away to where the Chain cannot bind us.
Hesperidean.
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Jolanda Swan
Jolanda Swan
Posts: 1482

7/17/2019
I imagine that even her current prediction might be hot reading. If the player character can find out about it, then someone as well-connected as Soshana can do it too.

--
Lover of all things beautiful, secret admirer of ugly truths, fond of the Parabola Sun... and always delighted to role play.
http://fallenlondon.com/profile/Jolanda%20Swan
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Jolanda Swan
Jolanda Swan
Posts: 1482

7/17/2019
So, I just got her card with enough reputation to make the last choice, and... no, she is not a fraud. Interesting.

--
Lover of all things beautiful, secret admirer of ugly truths, fond of the Parabola Sun... and always delighted to role play.
http://fallenlondon.com/profile/Jolanda%20Swan
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Siankan
Siankan
Posts: 850

7/17/2019
Jolanda Swan wrote:
Also, are any of her other predictions genuine? I mean 'bats are in the Sixth House' sounds silly but then, she is talking about the Masters being in London which makes sense.

I could see that being a reference to the Masters in a vacuum but Mame Shoshana is one of the inventors of Chiropteromancy. The bats (like the sun to Surface astrologers) are always in one House or another.
Of course, if the bats are in the Sixth House, somebody better move his investments out of Paris. London is the Fifth City, after all.

--
Prof. Sian Kan, at your service.
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Azothi
Azothi
Posts: 527

7/17/2019
Jolanda Swan wrote:
So, I just got her card with enough reputation to make the last choice, and... no, she is not a fraud. Interesting.
This is the "maybe magic, maybe mundane" paradigm. You're free to interpret her tarot card readings as mystical. That doesn't change the fact that Shoshana is a proven fraud who offers you hush money to not bring that fact to the authorities.

Humans are pattern-seeking creatures: that's the root of prayer, numerology, fortune-telling, and all sorts of human behaviors. This is the principle behind tarot cards. Suppose that Shoshana draws "The Manacled One", "The Gibbet", and the "Page of Staves" - all real Mme Shoshana Tarot Cards(TM) - and explains their meaning. Now the mind is wired to draw connections to those vague meanings, creating the illusion of fortune-telling. A lot happens in a day, especially in Fallen London.

Essentially, I can open a fortune cookie, read what it says, and then realize the next day that wow, that fortune made a lot of sense. The fortune cookie is no more magical than Shoshana needs to be.

Now, I think there is some evidence for Shoshana having supernatural connections: her fruitful visits with Freud, for instance, in interpreting dreams. Nevertheless, that doesn't change the fact that her business is built on deception and manipulation.

EDIT: I should perhaps clarify my position that while I believe the evidence leans towards Shoshana being a fraud, that's not the deciding factor that makes her my second choice; it's my opinion on the feasibility and effect of her policies versus her opponents' that give me hesitation.
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edited by Azothi on 7/17/2019

--
Azoth I, the Amaranthine Wanderer - Midnighter - A Paramount Presence (not currently accepting new Proteges)
Away to where the Chain cannot bind us.
Hesperidean.
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Diptych
Diptych
Administrator
Posts: 3410

7/17/2019
She could be a genuine prophet and a fraud. Just 'cause someone can see the future doesn't stop them from committing fraud.

--
Sir Frederick, the Libertarian Esotericist. Lord Hubris, the Bloody Baron.
Juniper Brown, the Ill-Fated Orphan. Esther Ellis-Hall, the Fashionable Fabian.
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Azothi
Azothi
Posts: 527

7/17/2019
Diptych wrote:
She could be a genuine prophet and a fraud. Just 'cause someone can see the future doesn't stop them from committing fraud.
Agreed. After all, we know her predictions about [spoiler]The Sixth City faling[/spoiler] are dead-on, even if I believe she could have more feasibly received that information from human sources than from mystical ones.

Personally, I see her business as the line: the tricks she uses to woo potential voters and earn money at the carnival are classic tricks, and if she were a performance artist with the spirit medium act instead of tricking people and making them more susceptible to financial predators, I'd be applauding her skills. Any real mysticism she possesses she deals with, I suspect, in private - those meetings with Schlomo, for instance.

--
Azoth I, the Amaranthine Wanderer - Midnighter - A Paramount Presence (not currently accepting new Proteges)
Away to where the Chain cannot bind us.
Hesperidean.
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Jolanda Swan
Jolanda Swan
Posts: 1482

7/17/2019
Yes, my mistake. While working on the carnival, she makes her living with hot readings. I have been frustrated many times myself. In some occasions however, including the elections card, he is shown, to have an actual ability to make predictions.
Of course, this doesn't mean she is capable of defending London from the fate she sees in her visions. I am simply leaning towards her because, well, she is not a devil. Which is good.

--
Lover of all things beautiful, secret admirer of ugly truths, fond of the Parabola Sun... and always delighted to role play.
http://fallenlondon.com/profile/Jolanda%20Swan
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0bsidian Fire
0bsidian Fire
Posts: 113

7/17/2019
Given the nature of Fallen London, "Maybe Magic, Maybe Mundane" is about as good as you can get it. Either Shoshana has a really good mundane information network (which for anyone looking to get anywhere in Fallen London is a must) or she has some mystic knowledge about how the world/neath/universe actually works (which is also very helpful for getting anywhere in Fallen London). Or she has both.

What I can say having done both the Shroud and Glass stories as far as I could take them until I had to pick a side (played both sides of the War of Illusions) is that at least with Shoshana working for the Shroud, we know she isn't in cahoots with the Fingerkings. Quite the opposite in fact, given what the Shroud is trying to do.

[spoiler]The Shroud are frauds, in the classical sense of the term. There is nothing "supernatural" about them. All of their info is gotten by mundane information networks and their Seances are nothing but elaborate parlor tricks (no mirrors though!). What gets interesting is what they use it for. As far as I can tell from the Shroud story, they use the information they get to help people in Fallen London get emotional closure for various things (especially people left on the Surface). They also do not say no to any tips or payment people give them. On the flip side, they don't ask for the payment either, even if they do look for wealthy patrons on purpose. So are they frauds? Yes. Are they being overly obnoxious about it? Probably not. Is something that really doesn't have humanities best interest in mind taking advantage of the Shroud? No, unless you count the cats...

This is in contrast to the Glass, who are in cahoots with the Fingerkings who admit that they are stage magicians and have people pay them to be stage magicians. Of course... there "stage" magic makes heavy use of mirrors. This also means the Fingerkings get a steady supply of humans hosts for them from the audiences they are preforming for... and yes... the Glass Magicians are aware of this and do it anyway.[/spoiler]

There's probably a discussion to be had here about what is really considered "mystic" about the Fallen London setting. Are Fingerkings "mystic"? Are Devils? Are Judgements or the Correspondence "mystic"? In some sense they are, but in another sense, those are all beings of "mundane" physics in Fallen London. Stars are beings that enforce the laws of the universe with a language made of light. Devils are really the servants of a Judgement who rebelled and yet still can't help carrying out their original purpose (making all those souls taste good to eat). Fingerkings Are Not and can't exist in the Is.

--
Kharagal Mierqid - Bohemian Correspondent who is obsessed with the Language of Stars...
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Chamberlain1012
Chamberlain1012
Posts: 2

7/17/2019
I don't believe that her precise source of information is relevant to her suitability as a candidate. Clearly, she's getting good information from somewhere. The key issue at hand is whether she is able to do anything about the very real danger that she foretells. The answer to that is no, not only because of the metaplot, but also because of the proposed solution to this future disaster: involving the Ministry of Public Decency, which is Mr. Pages' private fiefdom. Needless to say, this is rather like asking the CIA to stop the Bay of Pigs invasion. Quite aside from her rather charming characterization and good sources, there's simply no way she can do what she promised the way she promises, and so I would say she isn't an effective candidate.
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Jolanda Swan
Jolanda Swan
Posts: 1482

7/17/2019
Oh, I hadn't realized that Shroud's agenda was that benevolent. Well, that kind of... cements my decision to vote for Soshana.
And the information pairs well with the sudden clarity she displays when you accuse her of being a fraud.

--
Lover of all things beautiful, secret admirer of ugly truths, fond of the Parabola Sun... and always delighted to role play.
http://fallenlondon.com/profile/Jolanda%20Swan
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0bsidian Fire
0bsidian Fire
Posts: 113

7/17/2019
Echo of what Mrs. Plenty thinks of Shoshana: https://www.fallenlondon.com/profile/Kharagal%20Mierqid/16466879

--
Kharagal Mierqid - Bohemian Correspondent who is obsessed with the Language of Stars...
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Anne Auclair
Anne Auclair
Posts: 2215

7/17/2019
Azothi wrote:
For the most part, she fits into a "maybe magic, maybe mundane" archetype, though she has been proven to be a fraud in some aspects of her business.

Oh, there's definitely magic. There's plenty of evidence that she's a dreamer. In Parabola you can spy on anything happening in front of a mirror, get glimpses of possible futures, find evidence of previous civilizations, see into other people's dreams, and even get visions of the dead. These are all things that mediums claim to do.

This information though is often not very useful in everyday fortune telling. Pay a visit to Doctor Schlomo if you want an illustration of why that is. Everyday Londoners have very practical concerns and problems. Shoshana has powers, but not the powers to reliably provide these ready made answers - so she resorts to other methods to make a living.

0bsidian Fire wrote:

What I can say having done both the Shroud and Glass stories as far as I could take them until I had to pick a side (played both sides of the War of Illusions) is that at least with Shoshana working for the Shroud, we know she isn't in cahoots with the Fingerkings. Quite the opposite in fact, given what the Shroud is trying to do.


Yeah, the fact she's not on good terms with our snake friends is a knock against her.

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http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Anne%20Auclair
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MrBreaksIt
MrBreaksIt
Posts: 18

7/18/2019
I was distrustful of the Fingerkings, but wasn't aware of exactly how malevolent they were and am now rethinking my glass affiliation.

Ironically, I joined up with them because I thought the Shroud were up to something.

--
Eliza O'Claire, a Disguised Debutante.
https://www.fallenlondon.com/profile/Eliza%20O'Claire
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Cooper
Cooper
Posts: 61

7/18/2019
I am definitely backing Shoshana here, but that is partially due to lack of other suitable candidates.

Mrs. Plenty just annoys me - her carnival is notoriously shoddy when it is not outright sinister, and I consider being a former Seeker to be an anti-credential. As for London going on vacation? Please. Next!

Virginia ... is a devil. To her credit, she does at least physically exist. However, I less-than-fondly remember my competition against her for some Correspondence Stones. I stormed her camp, won, and was extremely disappointed I did not end her then and there. My attitude towards her has not improved. I still want her dead. Moreover, Dr. Orthos is one of her associates. I want him dead, too. Her campaign and the people running it have personally offended me ... and that's even before getting into the sheer folly of having a DEVIL run London. "Calisthenics for the soul?" Yes, get your soul in top shape before I steal it from you. Fools.

As for Shoshana ... her intentions are good. I would not see London end. She is not a fraud - she engages in fraudulent behavior as a business model, not when she actually wants to know something or affect a change. Her vagueness is irritating, but I'll much take it over Virginia's smugness or Mrs. Plenty's gap-toothed churlishness.

So sail on, Shoshana! This Paramount Presence will do what he can to stem the inevitable tide of Paris for as long as he can.

--
Padraig Cooper,
Remorseful Opportunist. https://www.fallenlondon.com/profile/Padraig%20Cooper
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The Curious Watcher
The Curious Watcher
Posts: 130

7/18/2019
What good is a healthy soul under the weight of the Sixth City?

What good is a carnival if it ends up as the next Forgotten Quarter?

Save London! Support Shoshana, or doom will come to us all!

--
Den Blackwell, Paramount
https://www.fallenlondon.com/profile/Den%20Blackwell
The Silent Vake Hunter: GONE NORTH
The Ravenous Wanderer:
https://www.fallenlondon.com/profile/The%20Ravenous%20Wanderer
The Melancholic End-Bringer:
https://www.fallenlondon.com/profile/The%20Melancholic%20End-Bringer
The Lethal Nightmare:
https://www.fallenlondon.com/profile/The%20Lethal%20Nightmare
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Soriel
Soriel
Posts: 5

7/18/2019
So as of right now I am a supporter of Virginia, as my characters beliefs personally believe that London needs help, constables can be hunted down (like the Special Constable, that I think can die?) urchins are running around on the streets being pickpockets and mugging people because they have to make a living, and there is a whole counter? meter? thing? for adrift in a sea of misery "Step outside the lamp-light and London is an abyss of disease, poverty, despair...".In my opinion, London is in dire needs of saving, but more so in a public services department, to at least help on some fronts, if you wouldn't mind, would someone care to explain to me how Shoshana could save London? For, in my opinion, if Paris is to fall (I figured this out from previous comments) wouldn't having a still living (due to Virginia's public services) city be good? or would we be dead anyway because of the 6th city falling? And in all this, what measures could Shoshana put into place? Personally I'm very curious, as I've not been in London for that long, and I still have much to learn. PS I haven't gotten any of the cards for each persons campaign, so I still know very little aside from the basic facts, feel free to enlighten me!
PPS all the edits are because I keep realizing I have more to say
edited by Soriel on 7/18/2019
edited by Soriel on 7/18/2019
edited by Soriel on 7/18/2019

--
A magnanimous and melancholy lieutenant who strives to learn secrets. Always up for roleplay and chess. Cheers to the constables! For keeping our minds safe from whatever used to be on the walls!
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