Calliope
Posts: 99
7/20/2019
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Siankan wrote:
If you choose to free your Brilliant Souls "in exchange for secrets," you get the following text: "Perhaps the requirement for this level of soul is to have lived a life of startling unpleasantness. You stop writing when the shivers get too much." So yes, I think one can fairly say that an increase in a soul's worth does not necessarily involve "doing any good to the owner."
One wonders if the silence of Silent Souls is more a catatonia than a willing quiet.
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https://www.fallenlondon.com/profile/Calliope%20Rannis
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Siankan
Posts: 1048
7/20/2019
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**Logic Review Ahead. Skip if uninterested.**
asinineFlatfoot wrote:
You are a kung-fu master of the false equivalency fallacy.
I have seen this term used (and, for the most part, misapplied) more this election than for the past three or four years put together. For clarity, let us take a moment to review the term:
False equivalence is what happens when two things are equated based on some similarity that does not, in fact, lead to the equation. So, for example, it would be false equivalence to say that Siddharta Guatama was as crazy as David Koresh because they were both religious leaders, or to say that there is no difference between a boy stepping on an ant and Joseph Stalin causing the death of millions, or to claim that Loki is as heroic as Thor because they're both comic book characters.
To claim false equivalence, one must demonstrate how the proffered parallel fails to demonstrate the point, either by attacking the parallel or by demonstrating that the parallel, though true, does not lead to the proposed end. You have to actually engage the argument in question. Simply yelling "False equivalence!" does not harm the opposition. If anything, it undermines one's own credibility (and, in my classes, will result in an F and a note to rewrite the paper).
So, for example:
"Virginia is as bad as Hitler, because they both promised to help us!" is false equivalence. A good man can say, "I will help you." So can a bad. Even if, for sake of a mental experiment, we imagine for a moment that everyone who comes to us with a smile and a promise to help is actually plotting against us, that still would not make them all as bad as Hitler.
"Virginia can't be trusted merely because her platform sounds good; after all, Hitler promised to help people when he was running for office, too" is not false equivalence. First of all, there is no equivalence being claimed. All that is being claimed here is that a pretty package does not guarantee pleasant contents, followed by a well-known example of the same. The statement doesn't even go so far as to claim that Virginia is a pretty package with unpleasant contents; it merely argues that her claims should be inspected carefully rather than accepted naively.
"Virginia's false promises to London are as dangerous as Hitler's promises to Germany" is also not (necessarily) false equivalence. If one grant the underlying assumption (that Virginia's promises are false, and that she has other motives beneath her scheme), it is at least possible that they present a danger to the world as great as Hitler's schemes did. However, that doesn't mean there aren't other logical problems here. First, one has assumed what right now nobody can prove: that Virginia's promises are false. We can speculate, but we cannot prove. Second, one would have to demonstrate not only that she's operating as a scheming liar, but that plans can cause as much damage to the world as Hitler's did--and remember, he has not only the Holocaust but also WWII and (indirectly) setting the stage for fifty years of Communist brutality in Eastern Europe on his account. Could Virginia equal him in one year as mayor of London? I can't logically disprove it, but I am highly skeptical. (If she can't, then this does become false equivalence, based on magnitude. That charge, however, would have to wait until it could be proven or disproven.)
If I have committed a logical fallacy and you can demonstrate that fact to me, I'll consider it a favor. One does, however, have to demonstrate.
asinineFlatfoot wrote:
Carillon? I'm not familiar. Is that one of the former mayoral candidates?
Carillon is a location in Sunless Skies where a group of devils have actually created what it sounds like Virginia is proposing here: a place where one can rehabilitate one's soul, working off those pesky stains in various fashions.
asinineFlatfoot wrote:
It's certainly one hypothesis that a life of thorough and complete misery is a way to augment your soul. But it's only a hypothesis, and assuming it's accurate, is that the only way? Could not a soul be made more brilliant by living a wondrous, charmed life?
As a reminder, the question at hand was whether or not it is "possible to artificially increase the value of a soul, without doing any good to the owner." While there are a host of unanswerables in that phrasing (it is involved, for example, with the question of whether anything can happen to someone that does not, in some sense, do good to that person), the question then at hand was whether or not one could safely regard any attempt to improve the value of one's soul as benevolent. We do not, of course, have definitive evidence, but as circumstantial evidence the impression that valuable souls got there through unpleasant means is certainly relevant. The question (equally unanswerable) of whether that is the only way to get there is separate entirely.
asinineFlatfoot wrote:
If Virginia takes to subjecting all of London to horrendous atrocities in the name of changing our souls, I should think she'd be on the fast track to impeachment. And if there's another way to get what she wants, besides atrocities, I expect she'd choose the subtler, less harmful route.
I think this statement has lost track of the claims it's responding to. I don't recall anyone discussing "horrendous atrocities." (I am also not sure what grounds there are for equating "subtler" and "less harmful.")
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Prof. Sian Kan, at your service.
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MidnightVoyager
Posts: 858
7/20/2019
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Here we go again, can we have a thread for just mechanical stuff? And not endless debating? It becomes difficult to find news about the event or anything when the threads are all full of in-character political debate.
edited by MidnightVoyager on 7/20/2019
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Midnight Voyager - A blood-cousin to predators. Collector of beasts. Affably mad.
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phryne
Posts: 1351
7/20/2019
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MidnightVoyager wrote:
Here we go again, can we have a thread for just mechanical stuff? And not endless debating? It becomes difficult to find news about the event or anything when the threads are all full of in-character political debate.
You have a point there. Since this thread is in the Bazaar subforum, it actually should be the place for just the mechanical stuff. The Election subforum, for example this thread, is the designated place for heated debate, in and out of character (and it should never spill out of there).
Now that's been cleared up would all you good citizens please go to your designated places with minimal fuss, thank you 
edited by phryne on 7/20/2019
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Accounts: Bag a Legend • Light Fingers • Heart's Desire • Nemesis • no ambition
Exceptional Stories, sorted by Season and by writer ― Favours & Renown Guide
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+5
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Siankan
Posts: 1048
7/20/2019
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phryne wrote:
Now that's been cleared up would all you good citizens please go to your designated places with minimal fuss, thank you
As it happens, I agree. Sorry for chasing the rabbit too far.
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Prof. Sian Kan, at your service.
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Anne Auclair
Posts: 2215
7/21/2019
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asinineFlatfoot wrote:
Anne Auclair wrote:
asinineFlatfoot wrote:
Now have some other facts: the overwhelming majority of imported souls are done so legally. You may even be among those who've signed your soul away. (I'm not; I have particular need for my soul)
That's a specious argument! If something is legal it is of course done legally, by definition. If murder were legal, the overwhelming majority of murders would be legal.
To clarify: when the Brass Embassy acquires a soul, it's generally done by approaching somebody and making a formal request. They ask for consent. They don't go around stealing souls from people without permission.
They ask consent except when they don't (such as in the case of the drugging). And they ask for "consent" from parties who cannot rightfully give it: children. And they get very mad at you when you interfere with their attempts to pry a soul from an urchin - setting fire to your house in fact (using coercion to dissuade third parties from interfering, hmmmm). Then they have human spirifers to do the really dirty work of stealing souls on their behalf. Lastly, cases of consent are irrelevant if you think the soul trade is inherently immoral and should be illegal in the first place.
asinineFlatfoot wrote:
Anne Auclair wrote:
The Brass Embassy buys from these "illegal" spirifiers. You see them do it in the Ladybones Soul Trade storyline. The police end up raiding one of these warehouses. Devils aren't choosy on where their souls come from.
That is not relevant. The point is, devils and their soul trade are not dangerous. The existence of spirifiers does not invalidate this point.
The existence of spirifiers, who are employed by the Devils in their soul trade, are just one of the things that makes the soul trade dangerous.
asinineFlatfoot wrote:
Anne Auclair wrote:
Also, when you attend a Brass Embassy party during the Feast of the Rose, the Devils try and drug you into signing your soul away. So they're clearly not above taking souls without consent.
There will be unscrupulous members of any organization. It's hasty generalization to say that they are all unscrupulous.
This unscrupulousness is an inherent part of the soul trade. The Devils regularly exploit people, try to take souls from children, buy stolen souls in full knowledge of where they came from, and even steal them themselves. This is documented in all the stories about the soul trade.
.
edited by Anne Auclair on 7/21/2019
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http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Anne%20Auclair
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Doctor_Static
Posts: 64
7/21/2019
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Drazzle Psmyth - to re-iterate, with nuance :: "Diabolicly Truthful" implies a literal factual, twisted in ulterior motive, real intent, and sinister result . . . No Matter "The Word" of the Contract - The Purpose is Evil, whether bared in the "Fine-Print", or no . . . DO be polite, but never trust a devil you can't see the menace of Nemesis in - for you ARE decieved.
-:- Drazzle -:-
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.: yr hmbl svnt -:- Yggdrasil 'Drazzle' Fawlty Psmyth -:- Citizen, Esquire, Anarch, Author -:-
. . . Life's a Riddle. The World's a Game. Love is a Mystery. Reality is a Dream. Time is a Song. Mind is a Word. Anarch Is Logos . . . Magick IS Afoot . . . And - the Game of The Game is a Name of a Name!
-:- (18, 18, 18, 25, 02 - 07, 04, 20, 19 - 13, 13, 13, 13 - 12, 09, 02, 01, 04) -:-
https://www.fallenlondon.com/profile/Yggdrasil%20%22Drazzle%22%20Fawlty%20Psmyth/
https://community.failbettergames.com/messages.aspx?TopicID=6&Page=46#post235960
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Doctor_Static
Posts: 64
7/21/2019
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(("Vote Madame Shoshana - "the Shy Sphynx" - and never be riddled with doubt again!!"))
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edited by Doctor_Static on 7/21/2019
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.: yr hmbl svnt -:- Yggdrasil 'Drazzle' Fawlty Psmyth -:- Citizen, Esquire, Anarch, Author -:-
. . . Life's a Riddle. The World's a Game. Love is a Mystery. Reality is a Dream. Time is a Song. Mind is a Word. Anarch Is Logos . . . Magick IS Afoot . . . And - the Game of The Game is a Name of a Name!
-:- (18, 18, 18, 25, 02 - 07, 04, 20, 19 - 13, 13, 13, 13 - 12, 09, 02, 01, 04) -:-
https://www.fallenlondon.com/profile/Yggdrasil%20%22Drazzle%22%20Fawlty%20Psmyth/
https://community.failbettergames.com/messages.aspx?TopicID=6&Page=46#post235960
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theonie
Posts: 77
7/21/2019
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asinineFlatfoot wrote:
I'll not sit idly and let people continue to paint every last devil as a soul-snatching boogeyman! If you wish to argue against Virginia, do so out of her merits and her promises, not the fact that she is not human. It's blatant racism! Some of the kindest and most helpful people I've met have been devils!
Really? Can you name at least one genuinely kind and helpful devil? :-)
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theonie, an inescapable, midnight, terrifying, and irresistible lady. All social actions except Affluent Photographer welcome. As a Midnighter, will gladly accept all invitations to Orphanages.
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Jolanda Swan
Posts: 1784
7/21/2019
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Fellow Londoners, Anne Auclair has set up a wonderful thread for each and every candidate. Let us peruse that for in-character debate. Here is Virginia's:
http://community.failbettergames.com/topic27536-election--virginia.aspx
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Lover of all things beautiful, secret admirer of ugly truths, fond of the Parabola Sun... and always delighted to role play.
http://fallenlondon.com/profile/Jolanda%20Swan
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Kharsirr Lynx
Posts: 318
7/22/2019
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So, Genuine Rubbery Lumps for Ms Plenty supporters. Could you share which other candidates offer as memorabilities, please?
edited by Kharsirr Lynx on 7/22/2019
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https://www.fallenlondon.com/profile/Kharsirr%20Lynx
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Waterpls
Posts: 324
7/22/2019
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>>>So, Genuine Rubbery Lumps for Ms Plenty supporters.
What is it?
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Long grinds: Heptagoat 100/180; Cider Done; Correspondence 21/21; Paramount 4/4.
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Kharsirr Lynx
Posts: 318
7/22/2019
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Waterpls wrote:
>>>So, Genuine Rubbery Lumps for Ms Plenty supporters.
What is it?
Persuasive Gloves, Bizarre+1, shares BiS with Twelve-Carat Diamond Ring.
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https://www.fallenlondon.com/profile/Kharsirr%20Lynx
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Jolanda Swan
Posts: 1784
7/22/2019
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Madame Shoshana offers a Neathy Tarot deck. Beautiful writing on that one!
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Lover of all things beautiful, secret admirer of ugly truths, fond of the Parabola Sun... and always delighted to role play.
http://fallenlondon.com/profile/Jolanda%20Swan
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Jolanda Swan
Posts: 1784
7/22/2019
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So, if I remember correctly, the Flash Lay's should now offer new tidbits, right? Other than that we pick a candidate and a free gift.
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Lover of all things beautiful, secret admirer of ugly truths, fond of the Parabola Sun... and always delighted to role play.
http://fallenlondon.com/profile/Jolanda%20Swan
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Kharsirr Lynx
Posts: 318
7/22/2019
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Jolanda Swan wrote:
Madame Shoshana offers a Neathy Tarot deck. Beautiful writing on that one!
And parameters there are... what?
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https://www.fallenlondon.com/profile/Kharsirr%20Lynx
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silurica
Posts: 210
7/22/2019
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The third poll seems broken, I can vote more than once.
--
 Meika Osborne, the Reckless Researcher
 Leonard West, the Scarlet Informant
 Chizuru Nishiooji, the Rueful Ex-Diplomat
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earthbourn
Posts: 149
7/22/2019
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Kharsirr Lynx wrote:
Jolanda Swan wrote:
Madame Shoshana offers a Neathy Tarot deck. Beautiful writing on that one!
And parameters there are... what?
Gloves, 8 Shadowy, 1 Dreaded
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Tenterhook - A sun-seared creature learning to be human.
The Mechanist, L. - Found what she was looking for. Gone now.
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Kaigen
Posts: 530
7/22/2019
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Jolanda Swan wrote:
So, if I remember correctly, the Flash Lay's should now offer new tidbits, right? Other than that we pick a candidate and a free gift. I just did a Flash Lay and got the same text as last week, so the new tidbits might not be turned on yet.
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Just a simple doctor with a chess habit. Publisher of The Flit Dispatch.
"One must remember that the impossible is, alas, always possible."
-Jacques Derrida
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Waterpls
Posts: 324
7/22/2019
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Devilbone Talons. Gloves: Watchful +8, Respectable +1. Virginia.
Why the Hell its Respectable?
edited by Waterpls on 7/22/2019
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Long grinds: Heptagoat 100/180; Cider Done; Correspondence 21/21; Paramount 4/4.
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