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Tribulations of a Translator (POTENTIAL SPOILERS) Messages in this topic - RSS

Cpt. Eructus
Cpt. Eructus
Posts: 76

2/17/2019
Hello, fellow zailors

I've taken upon myself the task of translating Sunless Sea into Spanish. I know it's a huge endevour and I don't know if I'll ever finish it, but I'm doing it mostly for my own entertainment. If it does come to fruition though, I'll be gald to share it, and open this amazing game to the Spanish-speaking community.

As it was to be expected, I've run into some difficulties, and I'm sure I'll run into more still, but I hope some of you may be able to help me extricate the more obscure meanings or etymologies of some of the game's concepts so I can find a suitable Spanish equivalent, or as close as possible to one.

The first doubt that has me puzzled is the term Lorn-Fluke, more particularly the "Fluke" part. What does it stand for? The most complete dictionary entry I have found for the word is the one in Wikitionary, but none of the meanings seem to me particularly suited to the monster, even the more maritime ones (either a flatfish, or the lobes in a whale's tail). Could it be a play on the phrase "turn flukes" which is "Of a whale: to go under, dive" aswell as nautical slang for "go to bed"? Or am I looking at this completely the wrong way?


If anybody can help, I would appreciate. Thanks in advance
edited by Cpt. Eructus on 10/17/2019

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Cpt. Eructus
Cpt. Eructus
Posts: 76

2/19/2019
That's partly true, but I really wanted to keep the "z" accent thing and océano is the only word that I could think of that has a c/z sound. I considered other more uncommon or literary Spanish words for sea that would keep a certain feel of strangeness while still being understandable, but none of them had the required sound.


About using a foreign-but-close word like Portuguese or Italian, I don't like it because it would mean changing the established history of the world, and turning that Dutch explorer into an Italian or a Portuguese for no reason (keeping it in Spanish may be partly guilty of the same but at least is not adding a third unrelated language into the mix). It always irked me when dubbed films and tv shows made blatantly Hispanic characters Italian by default, so they could keep speaking a foreign language in the Spanish dub. I get why they did it and it's not an easy thing to work around, but it never worked for me, so I don't like to do it myself.

Besides, Suboc(z)éano is not exactly Spanish either. Spanish is not as flexible a language as English or German, you can't just slap a preffix before a word and call it an accepted word (although we sometimes do it in common speech), so the fact that I did exactly that, does sound a bit weird to a Spanish ear and not like a normal word you would hear in real life.

I appreciate the debate and making me question things. Please, keep'em coming!smile
edited by Cpt. Eructus on 2/19/2019

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Siankan
Siankan
Posts: 1048

2/19/2019
Cpt. Eructus wrote:
About using a foreign-but-close word like Portuguese or Italian, I don't like it because it would mean changing the established history of the world, and turning that Dutch explorer into an Italian or a Portuguese for no reason (keeping it in Spanish may be partly guilty of the same but at least is not adding a third unrelated language into the mix). It always irked me when dubbed films and tv shows made blatantly Hispanic characters Italian by default, so they could keep speaking a foreign language in the Spanish dub. I get why they did it and it's not an easy thing to work around, but it never worked for me, so I don't like to do it myself.


There are a couple of thoughts to consider here:

1. The only Surface explorer I know of in Sunless Sea is Demeaux, who is certainly not Dutch. (If I have forgotten someone, I'm sure it will be pointed out to me.) Also, unless I've entirely missed it, there's never been an explanation given for how the Unterzee got its name. Thus, I don't think there's any history here to be obscuring.

2. The above is a moot point, because you're not preserving any linguistic history anyway. Subozéano is no kinder to any hypothetical namer than an Italian or Portuguese name would be. If not "changing the established history of the world" is a concern, then the only real route is to maintain Unterzee.

Captain Eructus wrote:
Besides, Suboc(z)éano is not exactly Spanish either. Spanish is not as flexible a language as English or German, you can't just slap a preffix before a word and call it an accepted word (although we often do it in common speech), so the fact that I did exactly that, does sound a bit weird to a Spanish ear and not like a normal word you would hear in real life.



I must point out here how un-English Unterzee is. It is not merely "a bit weird" or "not exactly" English; it is clearly a foreign word. Yes, the words are cognates, and yes, an English speaker can work out the meaning without overmuch effort, but the same is true of the Castillo de San Marcos, and nobody's mistaking that for an English name. Unterzee feels no more English than Mexico or Paris or Tennessee or Mediterranean. We recognize all those places as places, but the place-names are clearly borrowed from some other tongue. I don't think it's possible to maintain that familiar foreignness within a single language; for Spanish, it may not even be possible with Portuguese, which are as closely related as any two languages on earth. If anything, the relationship is like that between Spanish and French.

E.g., mar. In Portuguese or Catalan, the sea is still mar. In Italian, it is mare. In French, it is mer. The vowel-shift here between French and Spanish is understandable but foreign, much like the shifts between under and unter, sea and zee.


Now, as I've said before, something always has to give. That 'familiar foreignness' may be one thing that does. However, giving it up and giving up the sea/ocean distinction at the same time seems like a bad bargain.

Another note: The 'nautical z' is a challenge on its own. It works in Sunless Sea because it's so prevalent. Zailors zail the Zee, after all. It connects the ideas together with a verbal twist. That complex, as far as my limited knowledge goes, isn't going to be preservable in Spanish, where all the relevant words come from the wrong branch of the linguistic tree. Certainly Subozéano can't preserve it on its own. Without the zailing, zinging zailors, does preserving the 'z' in Subozéano do anything?

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Siankan
Siankan
Posts: 1048

3/9/2020
Cpt. Eructus wrote:
On the description of Batuk
"His head is bald. His beard is near."


I hate to break up a fascinating conversation, but I'm almost entirely certain that this is a typo, and that it should read, "His beard is neat."

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Siankan
Siankan
Posts: 1048

2/19/2019
Jermaine Vendredi wrote:
Except that the German term is Untersee, with an s

You are absolutely correct, and my brain knew this if I'd slowed down a bit. Assuming the 'z' is not merely a matter of accent (which we must leave as a possibility, since the "nautical 'z'" is an established matter of accent already, and doesn't need to derive from the name of the sea), then the Unterzee is neither Dutch nor German, but a hybrid of both.

Cpt. Eructus wrote:
The thing is that Unterzee is close enough to the English Undersea that anyone con understand it. That's not the case in Spanish (I mean, it could be understood through context and basic English knowledge but it would still be a bigger logic jump and the word would stick like a sore thumb among the Spanish text), and that's why I decided to translate it as Subozéano.

Ah, but here we get into the stickier details of translation. Connotation and flavor are at least as important in choosing a word (especially an important word) as the dictionary definition. In those terms, Subozéano departs from Unterzee in two important ways.

1. It is Spanish, albeit Spanish with an accent. Unterzee is very much not English, even though (as you've pointed out) it's close enough for one to figure out. It already sticks out like a sore thumb. That foreignness is important. It sets the Zee off as something different, something strange. Had Alexis simply called it the Undersea, it wouldn't have had the same effect; it's at least arguable that the flavor of the entire game would have changed. The Spanish equivalent would be to give it a name in Portuguese, or French, or Italian (or, following the above, a combination thereof).

2. It is too broad, geographically. There is an important distinction in English between sea and ocean. Sea is a flexible term. In phrases like "going to sea" or "at sea," we are usually referring to crossing great bodies of water, and we can use "the sea" or "the high seas" to simply mean the vast body of water that is 2/3 of the Earth. However, when part of a name sea is always a smaller body, usually one bound in some way by land: the Caribbean Sea, the Mediterranean Sea, the Sea of Japan. It can even be used for what are (truth be told) large lakes: witness the Dead Sea and the Sea of Galilee. Ocean could never be any of those things. It always and only means the vast landless stretches that separate the continents, the "high seas," the ancient domain of Oceanus himself. Ocean is deep and unbridled and dangerous to men.

Why does this matter? The Unterzee is continually described as being a limited body of water. It has definite boundaries (although some of those boundaries do odd things with time and space). It is several times mentioned to be very shallow compared to Surface oceans. It is without tides or waves (except when something large disturbs it) or even storms (unless, again, some outside force disturbs it). The Unterzee, at end of day, is merely a large, calm underground lake; its dangers come from monsters and darkness and strange powers, not from the water itself. Unterzee helps carry that.

I am no Spanish expert (as I proved in class last week, when I suddenly couldn't remember the word mujer), but I believe that océano carries the same connotations as its English cousin. Zee and See and sea are all much closer in meaning to mar.

---

In short, Unterzee tells us that this body of water is strange and foreign, but also small and limited. Subozéano, if my limited Spanish isn't betraying me, does neither. Now, is there a perfect solution? Not if we believe the Palace gates. Omnis traductor traditor; something always has to give. Nevertheless, it may be that there's a closer translation waiting to be found.
edited by Siankan on 2/19/2019

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Siankan
Siankan
Posts: 1048

4/15/2019
I really do think it's a typo. "Dream-Green" would be Viric, so it makes perfect sense to be here. If it's stayed in this long, it's probably because we've all mistaken the 'h' for the 'n' we expect to be there.

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Cpt. Eructus
Cpt. Eructus
Posts: 76

4/16/2019
With that, I think I have finished the entire qualities.json file, the second largest (barring the inevitable myriad of typos I no doubt have made along the way). Now comes the main course,events.json. I'll probably take a break to avoid burning out.
edited by Cpt. Eructus on 4/16/2019

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Siankan
Siankan
Posts: 1048

9/26/2019
Cpt. Eructus wrote:
Does anybody know what's the etymology for lacre, whatever it is?

It's a newly-coined word, but the ultimate source is the Latin lacrima, tear. (Related English words include lachrymose, sad or prone to tears, and lachrymal, producing tears.) Given that lacre is

[spoiler]Bazaar-tears that make you hopelessly sad,[/spoiler]

my hat is off for neatly tying it together in a made-up word.


If I remember correctly, the Spanish equivalent changes the -c- to a -g-. (Is this correct?) If so, I suppose that one could make a similar change to lacre in hopes that a Spanish speaker might make the connection that way. However, to me that seems like overdoing it, and even if the connection to tears gets missed, it's not necessarily the end of the world. Myself, I would probably leave it as-is.
edited by Siankan on 9/26/2019

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MissVeils
MissVeils
Posts: 1

3/8/2019
¡Buenas! =D


I actually started translating Sunless Sea to Spanish 2 years ago but had to give it up due to having no time between work and studies. I have studied translation and would love to help someone braver than me! Also I am absolutely loving all the research, reasoning and discussion on the translation of these terms <3


Also on the characters referred to as "they" I would go with the recently created "elle". Even if it's not on the dictionary, I feel like many terms that are used in the game aren't anyway. Would be better than just assigning them a gender.

(I just broke my lurking and registered because THAT'S how excited I got that someone is doing this)
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Siankan
Siankan
Posts: 1048

2/18/2019
I. On Lorn-Flukes: Don't underestimate the power of leaving a name untranslated. Yes, there are layered meanings in Lorn-Fluke, as in most all Failbetter names, but that doesn't mean everyone is picking up on them. Even for those who do, it is often less important than the alien feeling of the name. "Lorn-Fluke" might not say lonely-alien-spikey-fish-thing to a Spanish audience, but if it gets across "alien and strange," it's done its main work.

II. "Cladery" is connected to the cladent lobe which the Heir's mother cut off the Bazaar. This organ apparently is what compelled the Bazaar to travel.

III. Quaker's Haven definitely refers to Quaker in the religious sense. And no, the current inhabitants are certainly not Quakers.

Given how deep Failbetter goes into meanings, you'll likely need a serious dictionary for a project like this. The Oxford English Dictionary is the ideal, but not something you see on every shelf. If you live in an English-speaking country, you can probably find a library with one somewhere in range. If not, you'd probably have to subscribe to the online version. It's not cheap, but apparently there's a celebratory discount running through the end of March, 90 USD for American customers and 90 GBP for everyone else.

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Cpt. Eructus
Cpt. Eructus
Posts: 76

2/18/2019
Thanks, I'll keep all of that in mind. Leaving Lorn-Fluke untranslated was my last resource, because it could potentially make things awkward with derived words like fluke-core, but it might prove to be the lesser evil. I'll have to give it some more thought.


Edit: I'm thinking a partly-realted term. The parasitic worms called flukes in English are apparently called "duelas" in Spanish. That relates by sound to "doler" (to hurt) and "dolor" (pain), which could stand for the spiky horror part. there might be something there I can use.

Edit2: By the way, and this is not really about the translation as much as mere curiosity: is there any explanation on why the unterzee is called the unterzee? Was it discovered by a Dutchman? For my translation I'm keeping only the "z" theme and calling the zee "ozéano", which doesn't have the slightest lick of sense linguistically, but at least keeps the theme, so to speak
edited by Cpt. Eructus on 2/18/2019

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Diptych
Diptych
Administrator
Posts: 3590

2/18/2019
Oh, I like that duelas/dolor link. And, it was a Dutch explorer who rediscovered the Tomb-Colonies for London, so sailing became popularly associated with Dutch.

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Ixc
Ixc
Posts: 386

2/18/2019
There was a famous Dutch explorer whose accent was immortalized along with deeds (apparently discovering the Tomb Colonies), thus the z’s (or Zees) in nautical speech.

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Jermaine Vendredi
Jermaine Vendredi
Posts: 598

2/19/2019
@ Siankan
Except that the German term is Untersee, with an s, whereas Dutch does, in fact, use zee, as in Zuiderzee.

re. the Oxford English Dictionary. If you are a member of a library in the UK, your library card should / will give you access to online reference material, including dictionaries. Library card number is the sign-in.

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Cpt. Eructus
Cpt. Eructus
Posts: 76

2/19/2019
Siankan wrote:
As it's left untranslated in the English text, standard procedure is to leave it untranslated when shifting to another language, as well. (It is your call though, and there have certainly been cases of translating such words when they'd cause confusion in the new language, because of false cognates or another reason.)



The thing is that Unterzee is close enough to the English Undersea that anyone con understand it. That's not the case in Spanish (I mean, it could be understood through context and basic English knowledge but it would still be a bigger logic jump and the word would stick like a sore thumb among the Spanish text), and that's why I decided to translate it as Subozéano.
edited by Cpt. Eructus on 2/19/2019

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NotaWalrus
NotaWalrus
Posts: 287

4/6/2019
Cpt. Eructus wrote:
In any case, I think "Isla del Deshogar" translates the feeling of nostalgia for a lost home.

Now I wonder if Polythreme, being an Anglicized word of Greek origin, should be left untouched or Hispanicized following the Spanish rules for transcribing Greek words, leaving us Politreme. In this case, it's not a brand name like the ship classes, so there's more sense in transcribing it, but on the other hand, there's not much added clarity or understanding to be gained by doing it, it just alters the sepelling and pronunciation.

I'd go with Politreme, since that's pronounceable in Spanish

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Siankan
Siankan
Posts: 1048

4/8/2019
Cpt. Eructus wrote:
I think I'll do that. Thanks.

What meaning of brisk do you think applies to the Brisk Campaigner? Lively and energetic or abrupt and curt? Looking at her dialog, it could be both (D__n, it probably is both)

Definitely both. A brisk manner isn't curt in the sense of being rude (well, not normally), but it is the attitude of a person who is here to get things done, and is going to do them efficiently and without distraction. She's not going to waste time on foolishness or irrelevancies. Remember that the Campaigner is a veteran army medic, and I think you'll get to the right place.

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Diptych
Diptych
Administrator
Posts: 3590

2/17/2019
Flukes are certainly sea creatures, and also covered in hooks and spikes, and also very unlikely to actually exist - they're putting their name to good use! I can't speak for FBG's writers, but the definition meaning the prongs of an anchor seems appropriate- both spiky and nautical, as well as representing the Flukes keeping the Rubberies anchored to their past.
edited by Diptych on 2/17/2019

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Jermaine Vendredi
Jermaine Vendredi
Posts: 598

2/18/2019
Isn't a fluke also a liver parasite? And a stroke of luck, of course. And doesn't lorn mean forsaken?
edited by Jermaine Vendredi on 2/18/2019

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Cpt. Eructus
Cpt. Eructus
Posts: 76

2/19/2019
Siankan wrote:

Out of curiosity, what is the precise challenge? Do you just find the "_____ de la Zee" formula inelegant?

It certainly sounds somewhat awkward, to my ear at least, although I think it does sound better than what I had thought at first: "_____ del Zee" (Mar in Spanish can be indistintcingly masculine or feminine; masculine is more common overall, while feminine is more poetic and more usual among sea-folk, but I didn't think of using the feminine article with the unstranslated form). Something to keep in mind. Then again, ozéano lets me use adjectives like "ozéanico" in addition to "del ozéano"
edited by Cpt. Eructus on 2/19/2019

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Cpt. Eructus
Cpt. Eructus
Posts: 76

2/22/2019
Well, the creatures of the zee seem determined to be troublesome. I'm now scratching my head on how to translate Jillyfleur and Jillyfish. Do you think the "jilly" part actually means something or is it just a funny way of spelling jelly? Maybe it's some form or feminine moniker, derived form the name Jill (the jillyfleur's cap is supposed to look like a woman's face according to some events)?
edited by Cpt. Eructus on 2/22/2019

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Optimatum
Optimatum
Posts: 3732

2/22/2019
I'm pretty sure it's just supposed to be a corruption of jelly, yeah.

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Siankan
Siankan
Posts: 1048

2/23/2019
Cpt. Eructus wrote:
I like it, but as aguamala is already a compound word, and it kind of needs both parts of the word to be identified as the concept it refers to (neither agua nor mala by themselves convey the full meaning), it makes it more difficult to add a twist that reflects that it's not exactly the same as a regular real-world jellyfish.

How common a word is it in Spanish? Failbetter makes extensive use of rare words to set the stage, sometimes (e.g. Aestival) without changing the word at all. If medusa is the expected word and aguamala is even somewhat unusual or obscure, you may have enough variance there to make it work.

Regarding jillyfish v. jellyfish: Perhaps jillyfish might be somewhat silly, but then English has an odd relationship with variant spellings. We've absorbed so many words from so many sources that English orthography becomes very flexible, and that's before you get into, e.g., the significant spelling differences between British and American English. A minor vowel-change (like jellyfish to jillyfish) is something that we can accept pretty easily, particularly in a game. It's really hardly different from the pronunciation differences you can find even when the spelling doesn't change. (E.g. wash, whose regional pronunciations range from wosh to warsh, or the way some parts of the American South pronounce hill, Hell, and hail almost indistinguishably.) Of course, there are similar regional differences between Manila, Mexico City, and Madrid, but there's also a greater base consistency both within the language and between its regions. I can see where such a shift would stick out more in Spanish than it did in English.

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Siankan
Siankan
Posts: 1048

2/25/2019
Cpt. Eructus wrote:
Aguamalva could work for the Jillyfleur though, but not so much for the connection to "malvada" because again, that's not how you abbreviate words to form compounds in Spanish, but because "malva" is also a kind of flower, so it would keep the floral theme. So maybe Aguamalva for the Jillyfleur and straight Aguamala for the Jillyfish. But I'm still not sure about it.

It sounds good to my (non-Spanish) ears. You've got a solid connection, but also a logical transition and distinction.

Also, a side note on medusa: this word also exists in English to describe the adult stage of a jellyfish. It may be worth noting then that Failbetter didn't use it, even with the "woman's face" connection.

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Ixc
Ixc
Posts: 386

2/27/2019
I know I’m little late to the conversation, but perhaps the Fingerkings could be called “Reyes de Vidrio(s)”, or Kings of Glass/the Glass.

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Siankan
Siankan
Posts: 1048

3/7/2019
Cpt. Eructus wrote:
I think the convention for classes of military or civilian vehicles is to leave them as is.

Irrelevant, really, but this reminds me of the old story that the Chevrolet Nova sold poorly in Spain, because nobody wanted a car that said no va right on the bumper. Probably an urban legend, but it amuses me all the same.

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xKiv
xKiv
Posts: 876

10/8/2019
I don't know, to me a shapechanger/shapeshifter would be somebody who can change shape at will, not just "at a shape changing clinic". Shapeshifter is a doer. Shapeling is a product.

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Ixc
Ixc
Posts: 386

10/15/2019
“Anyone can be a needy man; all you need is a stick.”

I think even agents of the Masters and Constables somewhat dislike the Neddy Men; especially for their unsubtle and brutal methods. It could be they give such an unflattering nickname expecting that the Neddies would be too stupid to figure out it’s an insult (and thus far they’re right).

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xKiv
xKiv
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10/23/2019
Siankan wrote:
Shaping might be a product,


English is weird enough that the process of shaping something my produce something else called a shaping, yes.

but shapeling cannot be. The suffix -ling is exclusively used for living things, usually people, and usually as a diminutive.


I don't think that's relevant. You can call somebody a product of some process, environment, or (most often) circumstances. Doesn't kill them.

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Siankan
Siankan
Posts: 1048

1/7/2020
Salty or salted certainly connects to the sea and to zailoring generally. Also, it's a suggestion of age (both because old heads, like salt, are white, and a wry nod at salting being a way to preserve meat). The age links are particularly appropriate for this text, which is emphasizing Scrimshander's historical leanings. These inhabitants aren't just piratical historians; they are historical themselves.

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Cpt. Eructus
Cpt. Eructus
Posts: 76

2/1/2020
"Approach the Raven Haired Dotress"

Does "dotress" mean something or am I right to assume it is a typo and it actually means "doctress"

Apparently this Nook event is UNUSED, so not a big deal, but I may as well get it done just in case.
edited by Cpt. Eructus on 2/1/2020

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Ixc
Ixc
Posts: 386

2/1/2020
Insofar as I know, dotress doesn't actually exist in the English language. It may be (highly unlikely) that its refering to dote, ie. someone who dotes. Otherwise, it's more likely she's a doctress, whether medical or academic. It would depend on the text, I think, which I'm unable to find on the wiki.

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Jermaine Vendredi
Jermaine Vendredi
Posts: 598

7/19/2019
May be worth checking Irish sources -- the word sounds to me as if it's meant to be/sound Irish.

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Siankan
Siankan
Posts: 1048

7/23/2019
Honestly, it sounds like someone got called away in the middle of editing and only half-completed some kind of change. I could see "fierce as lambs or meek as lions," if someone were being cheeky, or perhaps "fierce as lions or meek as kittens" if the writer were playing it straight. As is, it doesn't make any more sense to me than it did to you.

If you think it was an error, I suppose you could simply alter it to make more sense. Alternatively, you could just translate it straight. I wish I could give you better guidance, but it comes down to your call here.

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Prof. Sian Kan, at your service.
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EJ Hamacher
EJ Hamacher
Posts: 31

8/8/2019
Bottling or jugging meat is still common in parts of the Commonwealth. Salted and pressure canned with an eye for longevity rather than desirability.

--
Meditationes est perscrutari occulta; contemplationes est admirari perspicua.
Dr. E.J. Hamacher: Esoteric Philologist; Midnighter
John Claverling: Seeker; Murderer; Reprobate
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Cpt. Eructus
Cpt. Eructus
Posts: 76

6/13/2020
What's your take on translator notes. There are a few things that could benefit from a little explanation, like some literary quotes from authors largely unknown outside the Anglosphere used in the ingame text.

Of course, I don't want to overdo it and explain every little contextual change I've made to the original text, but in your opinion, would it be beneficial to add the occasional note?

Generally, I would say that video games are not the place for that kind of thing, but Sunless Sea is already almost more like a novel than a game, so it could even contribute to that literary flavour.

I started wondering this when i came across the first and only mention of the L.B.s in Sunless Sea. And while L.B.s may be easy for an English audience to interpret as Little Bastards, there's nothing of the sort in Spanish (there's h. de p. (hijo de puta> son of a bitch), but that's way too strong and doesn't fit the style at all), so I opted for translating the abbreviation literally as PP.BB. (pequeños bastardos, repetition indicates plural in Spanish, as with EE.UU. for the USA) and add a very short note explaining it.
edited by Cpt. Eructus on 6/14/2020

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Captain Eructus, Royal Bethlehem Hotel, Fallen London (when not at zee)
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