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1897 Mayoral Candidates Discussion Messages in this topic - RSS


Guest

11/12/2018
I dunno, it could run things by proxy via a Drownie.
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Catherine Raymond
Catherine Raymond
Posts: 2332

11/12/2018
Jolanda Swan wrote:
November would be great, and it would establish her as a character, but maybe that would too many anarchists in a row?


Too many anarchists? London has been subsisting in a subterranean cavern with bats living mostly on mushrooms for 30 + years! There cannot be too many anarchists in those circumstances so far as I am concerned.

--
Cathy Raymond
http://fallenlondon.com/Profile/cathyr19355

Catherine Raymond aka Mrs. Rykar Malkus http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Catherine%20Raymond (Gone NORTH)
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Catherine Raymond
Catherine Raymond
Posts: 2332

11/12/2018
Sir Frederick wrote:
Forgive me repeating myself, but I don't think the Parliamentarian would be a good choice, because she's a player-designed character from one of the Silver Tree pledge rewards.


I think she would be a poor choice for another reason--she's NORTHBOUND! Does London really want to elect a Mayor who may tear off to the NORTH in the middle of her term?

--
Cathy Raymond
http://fallenlondon.com/Profile/cathyr19355

Catherine Raymond aka Mrs. Rykar Malkus http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Catherine%20Raymond (Gone NORTH)
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Guest

11/13/2018
That would actually be a pretty fun event. Mayor takes off in the middle of her term- what do we do next? Chase her down and bring her back? Call for an early election?
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Siankan
Siankan
Posts: 847

11/28/2018
So I thought (silly me) that it would be fun to make a candidate mockup for each of the non-human species I mentioned earlier. This was, of course, absurd. however, after struggling for some time with platforms and possibilities, one candidate did emerge as a coherent possibility. Consider the following:

-----
The Pirate Poet
Slogan: Write your own future! (alt. The future is unwritten!)

Platform: The Pirate-Poet promises to make London into a city where birth means nothing, and where anything is possible for the sufficiently determined. There is always a candidate aiming to break the Great Chain (and these candidates have a tendency to win); the Pirate-Poet fits squarely in this tradition. Not even Feducci so embodies revolutionary ideas.

Support: The Pirate-Poet is clearly aligned with the Revolutionaries, and also likely to be popular with the Bohemians. Her contacts and message may bring together these factions, Urchins, and Criminals for a coalition of the down-and-out (but, note, a very different one from the coalitions that supported Feducci and the Campaigner). The Dockers could go either way, depending on balance needs; many in Wolfstack have reason to hold a grudge, but she is also the first zailing candidate and many others might be happy just to get her on their side for once.

Opponents: Any revolutionary is going to make enemies among supporters of the status quo, which in London means Society, Church, and Constables. (It also means the Masters, though their heavy influence is no felt directly in matters political.) In addition, Society is unlikely to willingly allow a Clay (Wo)Man to participate in politics, and the Constables have issues with her illegal activities. The Church is likely to be divided, I think, and be the weakest force against her. (If Hell supports her, this may change.)

Problems: The legal problems here are staggering, but for our purposes that just means lots of interesting drama. (If Feducci and the Captivating Princess can run, I do not think Clayness is going to be an insurmountable barrier to Failbetter.) A more serious problem, however, is her likely appeal. The Pirate-Poet is a popular character on her own, especially (but by no means exclusively) to Sunless Sea players. Also, her nature is likely to appeal to those who view gender and sexuality in fluid terms (which, to judge from the forum, is not an insignificant portion of PCs), which will almost certainly tilt votes her way. In short, the problem may be finding someone to compete with her on even terms.
-----

That observation, however, does lead me to another. I'm not saying this is a good idea, but let's imagine for a moment

-----
Mr. Fires
Slogan: (don't have one, sorry)

Platform: Mr. Fires promises to keep the gaslights on, to maintain a society where Londoners can explore the Neath's many delights in peace. (Does exploring these delights really lead to a peaceful society? Look, he's a merchant, not a logician; stop asking questions and nobody will get hurt.)

Support: If we give the Dockers to the Pirate-Poet, Mr. Fires is diametrically opposed to her. He will have the support of the Constabulary, certainly, and his business connections will give him a lukewarm connection to Society. (An opponent like the Pirate-Poet may, however, drive them into his arms.) His control over the candle market might also be used to put pressure on the Church, which (especially if the other candidates are worrisome) might bring them around, too, under protest. Yes, this coalition is mostly unwillingly being forced into being, but, well, have you met the neddy men?

Opponents: Everyone else? Well, Dockers and Revolutionaries, clearly. Probably Criminals, though I'm sure he has contacts. His schemes for London indirectly pit him against the Bohemians on several levels. In other words, the natural allies of the Pirate-Poet are the natural enemies of Mr. Fires, and vice versa. (That said, in a Poetless race, I could see Mr. Fires' well-documented hedonism and connection with the Bazaarine school win over the Bohemians, at need.)

Problems: Well, he's a Master. This is a more dangerous violation of the base premises than the Captivating Princess ever could be, and I'm not going to say it's a good idea. However, the pull of a Master might be enough to counterbalance the popularity of the Pirate-Poet and make a fairer competition. (Yes, I said Master, Pirate-Poet, and fair all in one sentence. I know.) That in itself creates a problem, however, because it makes a third candidate even more difficult. We don't want a final product of Caesar/Pompey/Crassus, or still worse Antony/Octavian/Lepidus. How do we end up without a third wheel on this bicycle?
-----

You've got me. I don't know. I can at least tell you what we have to work with:

- Tomb Colonies, Great Game, Hell, and (if we want to work with them) Rubbery Men.
- Possibly Urchins, Criminals, or even the Church, or at least part of the Church. (It would be interesting to me to see the faction divided, maybe along the Fiacre's/Southwark split, maybe not.) Perhaps shake things up by giving the Duchess or the Widow a voice.
- Needs a platform sufficiently outside the status quo/revolutionary dichotomy to draw people sick of, bored of, or uninterested in it
- Needs to be a fairly decent person, someone that those who have major problems with the other two can rally behind
- Should probably be a good, old-fashioned human being

Is there a strong candidate that fits here? Factionally, I could see the Gracious Widow solving our problems, but she certainly won't help anyone put off by the other two, and I've not put any real thought into her platform. Also, I don't know that she'd be strong enough to compete with the other two (though she might be), and it's hard to run a campaign from a darkened room (not that similar problems stopped Slowcake). Maybe the Northbound Parliamentarian? She's got Colony connections, and a clear candle-lit platform that puts her at particular odds with Mr. Fires. If somehow we could bring in the Game she might be viable; I might also give her Society and let Mr. Fires have Hell in exchange. Still, someone would have to do an exceptional job to bring her up to par, and I don't know for certain that it could be done.

Anyway, this is just a thought exercise; while the Pirate-Poet looks like a real possibility, giving in to the temptation to pair her with Mr. Fires has BAD IDEA written all over it. Still, it was fun to think about, and I'd love to hear if it sparked any interesting thoughts in you.
edited by Siankan on 11/28/2018

--
Prof. Sian Kan, at your service.
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Osborn Draiss
Osborn Draiss
Posts: 16

12/7/2018
Maybe the president of Benthic collage? That would get Hell and probably the rubbery men to, and I'm sure some finagling we could get the great game on their side to. Some of the other criteria are a bit iffy, but maybe we can bring in the Provost instead of Mr. Fires for a final showdown of collages.

--
Osborn Draiss, a bumbling idiot who doesn't know what he's doing.

If you, for some unknowable reason, want to contact me, you can find me at https://www.fallenlondon.com/profile/Osborn%20Draiss. I am always interested in new friends.
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Catherine Raymond
Catherine Raymond
Posts: 2332

12/7/2018
That would actually be a pretty fun event. Mayor takes off in the middle of her term- what do we do next? Chase her down and bring her back? Call for an early election?



In real life (or at least in any approximation of same more rigorous than Fallen London), they probably would call for another election. I suspect Failbetter's stafff would revolt at having to deal with Election Madness twice in one year.

--
Cathy Raymond
http://fallenlondon.com/Profile/cathyr19355

Catherine Raymond aka Mrs. Rykar Malkus http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Catherine%20Raymond (Gone NORTH)
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Sir Wensleydale of Hardwick
Sir Wensleydale of Hardwick
Posts: 195

12/21/2018
But seriously, player character mayors. Think about it.

--
Sir Wensleydale of Hardwick- Riverside Regular, Newspaper Editor, Legendary Charisma.

Mr Netae- SEEKING MR EATEN'S NAME

Aaron Wimbleton- Private Detective. Some Medical Experience.

https://www.fallenlondon.com/profile/Aaron%20Wimbleton
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Jolanda Swan
Jolanda Swan
Posts: 1472

12/22/2018
I for one wouldn't mind NPCs specifically crafted for the Elections. As long as we have three unknowns, and are allowed to find enough about them in three weeks, it would prove as exciting as our favorite NPCs! The ES writers have proved they can write exceptional characters when asked to.

--
Lover of all things beautiful, secret admirer of ugly truths, fond of the Parabola Sun... and always delighted to role play.
http://fallenlondon.com/profile/Jolanda%20Swan
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The Curious Watcher
The Curious Watcher
Posts: 130

12/22/2018
Nominate our lord and savior, the almighty Heptagoat,as Mayor to make our city truly a Notable location to be in.

--
Den Blackwell, Paramount
https://www.fallenlondon.com/profile/Den%20Blackwell
The Silent Vake Hunter: GONE NORTH
The Ravenous Wanderer:
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The Melancholic End-Bringer:
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The Lethal Nightmare:
https://www.fallenlondon.com/profile/The%20Lethal%20Nightmare
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Jolanda Swan
Jolanda Swan
Posts: 1472

12/22/2018
And they already have a slogan - AAAAAAGH. Or even BAAAAAGH!

--
Lover of all things beautiful, secret admirer of ugly truths, fond of the Parabola Sun... and always delighted to role play.
http://fallenlondon.com/profile/Jolanda%20Swan
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lukeskylicker
lukeskylicker
Posts: 85

12/23/2018
I stand by my idea that the only good candidate would be two urchins in a trench coat.

--
http://fallenlondon.com/Profile/lukeskylicker
A man who likes to sound smart when he's really just making it up as he goes.

Rehabilitator of Wretched Mogs.
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Jolanda Swan
Jolanda Swan
Posts: 1472

12/23/2018
An urchin proxy, similar to the Amanuensis, does not sound like a bad idea.

--
Lover of all things beautiful, secret admirer of ugly truths, fond of the Parabola Sun... and always delighted to role play.
http://fallenlondon.com/profile/Jolanda%20Swan
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Sir Wensleydale of Hardwick
Sir Wensleydale of Hardwick
Posts: 195

12/23/2018
... Is anyone going to take my suggestion seriously? Are they even going to pay attention to it?

--
Sir Wensleydale of Hardwick- Riverside Regular, Newspaper Editor, Legendary Charisma.

Mr Netae- SEEKING MR EATEN'S NAME

Aaron Wimbleton- Private Detective. Some Medical Experience.

https://www.fallenlondon.com/profile/Aaron%20Wimbleton
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lukeskylicker
lukeskylicker
Posts: 85

12/23/2018
Sir Wensleydale of Hardwick wrote:
... Is anyone going to take my suggestion seriously? Are they even going to pay attention to it?



You are not the first person to suggest throwing player mayoral candidates into the ring and, unfortunately, it simply causes too many problems.

For example, name three players who a majority of the player base (or at least a majority for an election victory which is 34%) are simply aware of the existence of. Alright, that's cool, you managed to somehow pick three... but why did you pick those three? There's probably many other players who a good portion of us are aware of, how are you going to pick those three players in any way that would not show favoritism. A lottery? You're going to make an extremely unique game play experience be locked behind the requirement of not only being one of the most influential and elite members of a community... but you're also going to make it dependent on the Fallen London Random Number Generator?!

Having it be yourself against two NPCs doesn't work either! The election would be for show and there would be no point in grinding a career as everyone would vote for themselves.

It is an interesting idea, and we have all considered before, but the logistics problems it creates are too monumental to be worth it.

--
http://fallenlondon.com/Profile/lukeskylicker
A man who likes to sound smart when he's really just making it up as he goes.

Rehabilitator of Wretched Mogs.
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Azothi
Azothi
Posts: 527

12/23/2018
Sir Wensleydale of Hardwick wrote:
... Is anyone going to take my suggestion seriously? Are they even going to pay attention to it?
lukeskylicker gives a good explanation of the logistical problems that underlie the idea. I want to emphasize something else, though.

It's good to bring ideas up again to offer it to a wider audience and try to gain more interest. And it's normal to be annoyed by the absence of a response after you brought it up two days ago, after over a month where the only other response was negative from Isaac Gates (who, for better or worse, is no longer on the forum). But don't take it personally - people have different interests. You can't make anyone respond.

EDIT: Alright, I stand corrected. Turns out this is a pretty effective way of making people respond.
edited by Azothi on 12/23/2018

--
Azoth I, the Amaranthine Wanderer - Midnighter - A Paramount Presence (not currently accepting new Proteges)
Away to where the Chain cannot bind us.
Hesperidean.
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Siankan
Siankan
Posts: 847

12/23/2018
Sir Wensleydale of Hardwick wrote:
But seriously, player character mayors. Think about it.

Let us think, then, you and I.

Thought One
Mayors feature repeatedly in content throughout the year. In order to do this, naturally, Failbetter must have creative control over the characters who become mayor. To use a PC as mayor, therefore, either

1) Failbetter doesn't do mayoral events during the year, disappointing basically everyone and obviating most of the interest of having a PC mayor,

or

2) the PC's player releases creative control over his or her character for the year (which is not likely to happen),

or

3) Failbetter and the player coordinate on every event the mayor is involved in.

Before you jump on #3 as being an excellent solution, consider the workload that involves. Even a single interaction at a single event is going to involve several pieces of text, for alternative choices and possibly alternative outcomes. Each one of these would have to be done in consultation with and vetted by the player. Now, multiply that by the number of desired interactions and the number of desired events, and you're starting to dedicate a lot of someone's time to this continual consultative process. If the player is particularly difficult to work with, this can quickly turn into a morass, sucking up someone's time, creating a lot of headaches, and preventing whomever's told off for the job from creating new content.

Also, what happens when the player suddenly decides in January that this is too much work, and bails without warning? What does Failbetter do then? Scrap any planned content for February? Take liberties with the PC mayor and hope? And if the player isn't happy with the way the PC mayoral events come out, what's the likelihood this sours opinions of Failbetter, both for the player and the overall player base.

Thought Two
Then we have to call in Baseborn & Fowlingpiece. The standing policy in almost every company involved in continuing creative endeavors is to not look at outside suggestions or creations. Why? Because it's one of the few defenses against someone claiming "They stole my idea!" and demanding a cut of the cash. Now, consider the legal complications of Failbetter actually using a character created by an outside source. Can the solicitor's rats write up the right documents to deal with it, along with the NDA and all the other infernal contracts? Yes. However, you have to pay them, and Gruyere is expensive.

Thought Three
Every player who's advanced to a certain point has met the Jovial Contrarian or the Duchess. Only the tiny sliver of players who've been on venues like the forum or the Discord have heard of even the best-known NPCs. Even of those, only a percentage pay enough attention to, say, Mr. Pages' Fabularities to know anything about them. For the vast majority of the player base, even the Drake Dynamos of the world are unknown quantities.

Thought Four
How do you decide what PCs to let run? Do we run a poll? Introduce primaries? Hand-select? All of these options have a way of causing disagreement, and consequently hard feelings.

Speaking of hard feelings, how will the campaign affect those who are on the forum? After all, Anne Auclair and I can argue all day about the appropriateness of the Jovial Contrarian as mayor and still share a civilized cup of tea when it's over. What if we're arguing about the appropriateness of Lady Sappho? What about Sir Wensleydale? Are you prepared to have your character dissected in the way we usually do at elections? Are you going to be able to maintain good relations with those who argue vociferously that you should not be the mayor? Perhaps you are, but I'm willing to lay down money that not everybody is--and that not everyone who thinks they are would stand the test. We have a delightful community around here, and I am not convinced that in-game politicking is the proper ingredient for maintaining it.

Thought Five
Now, let's imagine that you, the player, have had your PC elected mayor. Congratulations! It's quite an honor. Now, what are you going to do? Perhaps protest against yourself? The mayoral card is usually interesting, in one way or another, but if I am the mayor, it seems awkward to do anything with it at all. I suppose Failbetter could make mirror versions of every single mayor interaction based on some "You're the Mayor!" quality, but again that's a lot of extra work for someone, which means time and resources not going toward making the game better for the whole player base. Otherwise, however, being mayor is likely to feel like an anticlimactic letdown.

-----

Mayoral PCs have been suggested several times. Real solutions to the above problems, however, have not been so forthcoming. Thus they remain, and are likely to remain, merely a thought exercise.
edited by Siankan on 12/23/2018

--
Prof. Sian Kan, at your service.
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lukeskylicker
lukeskylicker
Posts: 85

12/24/2018
Siankan wrote:

<snip snip>
Mayoral PCs have been suggested several times. Real solutions to the above problems, however, have not been so forthcoming. Thus they remain, and are likely to remain, merely a thought exercise.



Damn, and here I thought I had deconstructed the idea pretty well.

Ignore my post this guy is WAY more comprehensive.


Also, absolutely fantastic point and forgot to mention. The forum, reddit, and discord are all, by far, the most active and engaging communities Fallen London has to offer. However, outside of people looking for an answer to a question or being linked to an update or ES post, represent an extraordinarily small sliver of the whole playerbase.


The only player that I'm aware of who might have a true shot of being a recognizable figure outside of the forums might be spacemarine9 since he became all but a myth for reasons I don even have to mention.

But alas I think he has retired has he not?

--
http://fallenlondon.com/Profile/lukeskylicker
A man who likes to sound smart when he's really just making it up as he goes.

Rehabilitator of Wretched Mogs.
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Anne Auclair
Anne Auclair
Posts: 2215

12/24/2018
I'd like to nominate the very respectable Mr Clathermont.

Mr. Slowcake was exceptional fun (his campaign had the best writing!), but he wasn't the Great Game candidate a lot of us were hoping for. This highlights the scarcity of usable Great Game characters, most of them being either very anonymous or very foreign, as well as the larger philosophical problem of a spy running for office as the candidate of spies not normally being a very spy thing to do. When you also take into consideration that members of the Great Game generally spend most of their time, well, fighting other members of the Great Game, it's clear that any candidate must be a sort of unifying figure which all sides feel they can use or manipulate.

Surveying London, the only well established Great Game character with a unifying position and the cover story to run for Mayor would be Mr Clathermont. Everyone knows he's in deep with the Great Game, but his official occupation is as that of tattooist. He's also not aligned with any of the factions (London, Khannate, Surface Powers, Elder Continent), his role being that of a neutral provider of special services and information. Furthermore, Mr. Clathermont also has a lot of Zailors among his clientele, which hints that his support could extend well beyond London's spies in ways very conductive to a Great Game campaign (remember that in Ms. Plenty's Carnival the spies disguise themselves as Drownies).

Also, I think the Dauntless Temperance Campaigner deserves a second shot. Dauntless is literally her last name and Determination probably her middle one. The Contrarian learned from his defeat and grew into a much better (and somewhat more ruthless) contender. There's no reason the same can't happen with the Campaigner. Tea can be spicy as well as sweet.

--
http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Anne%20Auclair
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Sir Wensleydale of Hardwick
Sir Wensleydale of Hardwick
Posts: 195

12/26/2018
Siankan wrote:
Sir Wensleydale of Hardwick wrote:
But seriously, player character mayors. Think about it.

Let us think, then, you and I.

Thought One
Mayors feature repeatedly in content throughout the year. In order to do this, naturally, Failbetter must have creative control over the characters who become mayor. To use a PC as mayor, therefore, either

1) Failbetter doesn't do mayoral events during the year, disappointing basically everyone and obviating most of the interest of having a PC mayor,

or

2) the PC's player releases creative control over his or her character for the year (which is not likely to happen),

or

3) Failbetter and the player coordinate on every event the mayor is involved in.

Before you jump on #3 as being an excellent solution, consider the workload that involves. Even a single interaction at a single event is going to involve several pieces of text, for alternative choices and possibly alternative outcomes. Each one of these would have to be done in consultation with and vetted by the player. Now, multiply that by the number of desired interactions and the number of desired events, and you're starting to dedicate a lot of someone's time to this continual consultative process. If the player is particularly difficult to work with, this can quickly turn into a morass, sucking up someone's time, creating a lot of headaches, and preventing whomever's told off for the job from creating new content.

Also, what happens when the player suddenly decides in January that this is too much work, and bails without warning? What does Failbetter do then? Scrap any planned content for February? Take liberties with the PC mayor and hope? And if the player isn't happy with the way the PC mayoral events come out, what's the likelihood this sours opinions of Failbetter, both for the player and the overall player base.


Solution: Look to Port Carnelian as an example, but spread it out so that your &quotTime Passing in Mayoral Office&quot quality can only increase at 1 CP per day. This solution is not without problems (namely, Port Carnelian), but the problems involved could just be blocked off.

Siankan wrote:
Thought Two
Then we have to call in Baseborn &amp;amp; Fowlingpiece. The standing policy in almost every company involved in continuing creative endeavors is to not look at outside suggestions or creations. Why? Because it's one of the few defenses against someone claiming &amp;quotThey stole my idea!&amp;quot and demanding a cut of the cash. Now, consider the legal complications of Failbetter actually using a character created by an outside source. Can the solicitor's rats write up the right documents to deal with it, along with the NDA and all the other infernal contracts? Yes. However, you have to pay them, and Gruyere is expensive.


Solution: The way that I look at it, this would be more of giving an idea than the recipient stealing it.

Siankan wrote:
Thought Three
Every player who's advanced to a certain point has met the Jovial Contrarian or the Duchess. Only the tiny sliver of players who've been on venues like the forum or the Discord have heard of even the best-known NPCs. Even of those, only a percentage pay enough attention to, say, Mr. Pages' Fabularities to know anything about them. For the vast majority of the player base, even the Drake Dynamos of the world are unknown quantities.


Solution: Make them known. My original idea involved storylet a only open for less than a day. The solution involves that, and afterwards, opening a storylet revealing the candidates, and giving brief descriptions.

Siankan wrote:
Thought Four
How do you decide what PCs to let run? Do we run a poll? Introduce primaries? Hand-select? All of these options have a way of causing disagreement, and consequently hard feelings.

Speaking of hard feelings, how will the campaign affect those who are on the forum? After all, Anne Auclair and I can argue all day about the appropriateness of the Jovial Contrarian as mayor and still share a civilized cup of tea when it's over. What if we're arguing about the appropriateness of Lady Sappho? What about Sir Wensleydale? Are you prepared to have your character dissected in the way we usually do at elections? Are you going to be able to maintain good relations with those who argue vociferously that you should not be the mayor? Perhaps you are, but I'm willing to lay down money that not everybody is--and that not everyone who thinks they are would stand the test. We have a delightful community around here, and I am not convinced that in-game politicking is the proper ingredient for maintaining it.


Solution: Look to the beginning of Seeking Mr Eaten's Name. You are told then of what this would entail, and receive an item to let you opt out. The opt-out will be discussed in a second, but definitely let them know what may happen.

Siankan wrote:
Thought Five
Now, let's imagine that you, the player, have had your PC elected mayor. Congratulations! It's quite an honor. Now, what are you going to do? Perhaps protest against yourself? The mayoral card is usually interesting, in one way or another, but if I am the mayor, it seems awkward to do anything with it at all. I suppose Failbetter could make mirror versions of every single mayor interaction based on some &amp;quotYou're the Mayor!&amp;quot quality, but again that's a lot of extra work for someone, which means time and resources not going toward making the game better for the whole player base. Otherwise, however, being mayor is likely to feel like an anticlimactic letdown.


Solution: The opt-out item mentioned earlier would send a message to Failbetter saying that this mayor has resigned, and letting them create an auto-fire card for the runner-ups. This would require some bit of maintenance, but would be feasible.

And there is one more problem that is created: what about any qualities created by a PC election? Solution: Auto-fire card as always, just removing it quickly. Though this problem does not exist if the PC election would be one-off.

Hoo boy, this was a hard response to write.
edited by Sir Wensleydale of Hardwick on 12/26/2018

--
Sir Wensleydale of Hardwick- Riverside Regular, Newspaper Editor, Legendary Charisma.

Mr Netae- SEEKING MR EATEN'S NAME

Aaron Wimbleton- Private Detective. Some Medical Experience.

https://www.fallenlondon.com/profile/Aaron%20Wimbleton
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