MrEvil135
Posts: 39
7/13/2018
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So according to the lore as I know it, the dream world Parabola "Isn't". That is, the Judgments won't allow something like it to occur. Things from said dream world Parabola, like the Fingerkings, are also "Isn't". This brings us to cats, against whom the Fingerkings are fighting the war of illusions. Cat's are smart in the neath because of it's connection to the dream world, which again, is "Isn't". In the dream world, cats are larger carnivorous tigers and such, and the general lawlessness of the neath allows some of the dream self of cats to leak into the neath. Now, keep in mind that everything from the dreamworld is "Isn't", so the dream avatars of cats are also "Isn't". But in the neath the dream avatars of cats combine with the physical bodies of cats, giving them their super intelligence. Cats are therefore combined with their physical bodies, which are "Is", and there dream avatars, which are "Isn't". Meaning that cats are somewhat both "Is" and "Isn't"
So if cats are both "Is" and "Isn't", does that make all cats in the neath Schroedinger's Cats?
Think about it.
edited by MrEvil135 on 7/13/2018
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This account represents the FALLEN CITIES INVESTIGATION TEAM. Our current members
Alejandro: Our proud leader, minor poet, chess piece, Midnighter, Runner of the Oft-Mendacious Gazette. Probably a vampire. Open to any and all social actions
Mr Evil: Vengeful, somewhat insane. Currently is obsessed with the northern cardinal direction. Has dead family members. Wants to go north. Manages this account. North.
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Azothi
Posts: 586
7/14/2018
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Nice. Very nice.
I've thought about it and the observational (heh) joke is very interesting, and while humor need not be wholly accurate, it's well worth discussing the similarities and differences between the cats of the Neath and Schrodinger's cat. The thought experiment focuses on the apparent absurdity of the mathematics that produces a cat that is both dead and alive due to the absence of observation. The state of the cat can be described by the probability of it being dead or alive, but when we observe it, we only observe one result. This is because the wave function (which describes various probabilities) collapses upon observation. Schrodinger's cat lies in the blurry area where the mathematical description of its state accounts both for it being alive and it being dead.
The cats of the Neath, on the other hand, live in a perpetual state of possessing both a "Judgemental" (in every sense of the word) nature and a Parabolan nature, this doesn't change upon observation. The cat is not either Is or Is Not: it is Is and it is Is Not. This is most apparent when we place a Parabolan creature by a mirror; its dual nature is clear, and it is not comparable to Schrodinger's cat.
I'm unsure if regular cats will appear as their Parabolan selves in the mirror. If not, then there's a compelling comparison to Schrodinger's cat here, where the state of the cat as either Is or Is Not is determined by the observer. This is a weird spot because quantum effects manifest on macroscopic scale as what we know as classical physics, so the idea of an entire cat in superposition without the specificities of Schrodinger's thought experiment is questionable, but taking things a little less literally, it can be imagined that the "real / Is" particles of the Neath interact with the cat, causing its state to be observed and stabilize as part of the Is, while the "not real / Is Not" particles or whatever of Parabola interact with the cat, causing its state to be observed and stabilize as part of the Is Not.
Another question to be raised is what happens when you put a cat inside a Mirrorcatch Box. Alternatively, what happens if you place a cat in a Mirrorcatch Box and then take it to Parabola? Or, even better, what if you take a cat in Parabola to the real world through a Mirrorcatch Box? We can hypothesize this is possible because it has been demonstrated that Mirrorcatch Boxes can be taken into Parabola, at least where the boundary between Parabola and the Neath is weak (Irem, at least, and possibly the Nadir).
Finally, I think this speculation touches on an interesting idea, which is that the Neath itself is the "box", and we are all the cats.
The Judgements would be the observers, and the Neath is an unknown. When a living being is in the Neath, it is impossible for the Judgements to directly observe whether they are alive or dead - whether they obey the Laws or whether they defy them. When a human that has visited the River leaves the Neath, their state is observed by the Judgements. Suddenly, they are no longer both alive and dead because of the unnatural vitality of the Mountain - they're just dead. This ties into the relational interpretation of quantum mechanics (which, as a disclaimer, I am sympathetic to but acknowledge that has no guarantee of being correct), which for our purposes allows the wave function to be collapsed or not in different frames of reference. Because we are all inside the Neath - the "box" - we can observe each other. If we've died, we're dead by the Judgements' standards, and that's clear from our frame of reference. The "cat" is dead. The Judgements, though, as an external observer, would not have observed this, and so from their frame of reference, all living beings in the Neath exist in a superposition of being both alive and dead.
And, of course, if the Judgements would hear the knocking and turn their eyes upon the Neath, they would bring light - the light of law and the light of knowledge as they open the box and judge whether the cat is alive or dead.
tl;dr: We are all cats.
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Azoth I, the Emissary of Cardinals - A Paramount Presence (not currently accepting new Proteges)
Away to where the Chain cannot bind us.
 Hesperidean.
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Diptych
Administrator
Posts: 3493
7/13/2018
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Oh, well done.
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Sir Frederick, the Libertarian Esotericist. Lord Hubris, the Bloody Baron.
Juniper Brown, the Ill-Fated Orphan. Esther Ellis-Hall, the Fashionable Fabian.
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incerteza
Posts: 103
7/13/2018
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So if cats are both "Is" and "Isn't", does that make all cats in the neath Schroedinger's Cats?
I guess you might find it amusing: there was a cute (unconfirmed, but cute) theory that cats have an easy route to Parabola not because "it just happened", but because some nameless guy who used to deal with the roads to Parabola granted them access.
So you can say, you have found the name.
(A side note, the cats' intelligence might not be caused by the Parabola itself - non-Parabolan animals like rats, ravens, and at least one spider are also smart enough to talk. It's possibly the general lawlessnes, most commonly associated with the Nadir.)
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Jermaine Vendredi
Posts: 588
8/13/2018
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In fairy tales, it is common for a path that is clear in front of you to vanish behind. Tales are also full of forests to get lost in. While that is wilderness, I've always thought of the Forgotten Quarter as an immense expanse of ruins, where one corner looks much like every other. And it reminds me of a visit to a ruined town on Malta, not that large when seen from a nearby hilltop, but very, very easy to get lost in. Indeed, to prove it to myself, I did...
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No plant battles, please.
https://www.fallenlondon.com/profile/Jermion
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Netos Korlan
Posts: 78
7/16/2018
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MrEvil135 wrote:
Here's another interesting idea. All of us go through the same motions while in the neath, the Making Your Name quests, siding with the Last Constable or The Cheery Man, pursuing ambition, or in the most unwise of cases, Seeking the Name. Yet every time one of us does this thing, it's treated as if it never happened before. How many times has the last constable fought with the Cheery Man?
This brings another fact regarding us as all cats in the neath. Perhaps it is this way because the entire neath is in a sort of superposition. Some people side with the Last Constable, other the Cheery Man, but they happen multiple times in the same Neath. We are the cats, the Neath is our box, and we should pray that the Judgements don't decide to open up and take a look.
This is in fact what I wanted to write about in a new topic (and maybe still should).
The presence of multiple player characters executing supposedly unique actions, while unavoidable given the nature of the game medium, also strikes a funny parallel with Dark Souls.
For the parallel to be complete, we should be able to write down our names with chalk and summon each other.
I mean, no one has already discovered the route to the Cave of the Nadir? Really? When the most reliable method of obtaining an Eyeless Skull is to ask someone to give you one?
I had this funny image of people pretending not to know the route to the Cave of the Nadir, as a sort of prank, whereas the Forgotten Quarter is full of coded street signs that lead you right to it
edited by Netos Korlan on 7/16/2018
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http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Stelios%20Korlan
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Sanguinifex
Posts: 18
8/13/2018
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Netos Korlan wrote:
MrEvil135 wrote:
Here's another interesting idea. All of us go through the same motions while in the neath, the Making Your Name quests, siding with the Last Constable or The Cheery Man, pursuing ambition, or in the most unwise of cases, Seeking the Name. Yet every time one of us does this thing, it's treated as if it never happened before. How many times has the last constable fought with the Cheery Man?
This brings another fact regarding us as all cats in the neath. Perhaps it is this way because the entire neath is in a sort of superposition. Some people side with the Last Constable, other the Cheery Man, but they happen multiple times in the same Neath. We are the cats, the Neath is our box, and we should pray that the Judgements don't decide to open up and take a look.
This is in fact what I wanted to write about in a new topic (and maybe still should).
The presence of multiple player characters executing supposedly unique actions, while unavoidable given the nature of the game medium, also strikes a funny parallel with Dark Souls.
For the parallel to be complete, we should be able to write down our names with chalk and summon each other.
I mean, no one has already discovered the route to the Cave of the Nadir? Really? When the most reliable method of obtaining an Eyeless Skull is to ask someone to give you one?
I had this funny image of people pretending not to know the route to the Cave of the Nadir, as a sort of prank, whereas the Forgotten Quarter is full of coded street signs that lead you right to it
edited by Netos Korlan on 7/16/2018
I'm suspicious the Nadir is something you can't tell other people the location of very easily. So multiple people know where it is, and sometimes you find the eyeless skulls of people who physically died there, but unless you actually go on an expedition with someone who knows the way--and an Eyeless Skull counts for that, it used to be a person, it kind of still is because their soul is stuck in the Nadir--you aren't going to be able to find it, no matter how complete the directions.
(I figure that, although you can sell the location to factions in-game, you tell them they need a Skull as part of those directions. Of the 4 factions you can do this with, one at least also isn't human, and there's something extremely uncanny about Urchins as well. Revolutionaries and the Game should have the connections to obtain the appropriate items. What this makes you wonder is why you can't just buy access to the Nadir. Again, I'm guessing is because you need a guide who's been there.)
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http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Sanguinifex
Any non-harmful social actions except plant battles and affluent photographers!
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Ixc
Posts: 365
8/13/2018
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The Nadir might not be truly physically accessible. On the expedition, the trail to it takes you in a circle, literally. And then, you take some unwise tea and fall asleep, and only then you can access it. Of course, Irrigo also dampens reality AND hides things, so that may be because of it’s effects.
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Pleased to meet you. Ixc, spy and detective. Inventor of the Correspondence Cannon.
Are you a Paramount Presence? Record your name here. For posterity, of course.
Out of the night that covers me,
Black as the pit from pole to pole,
I thank whatever gods may be
For my unconquerable soul.
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MrEvil135
Posts: 39
9/21/2018
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Here's another idea, The good ol' Judgments (you are free to read that phrase as ironicly as you want) dictate their laws via lights. But should the Liberation ever take effect, it is suggested that the only light will be the colors of the Neathbow. Why do these lights still exist even after the Judgments demise? After all laws are gone, why do these light and colors still exist? Perhaps I am overdue for a trip to the Iron Republic. Maybe there I shall find my answers.
--
This account represents the FALLEN CITIES INVESTIGATION TEAM. Our current members
Alejandro: Our proud leader, minor poet, chess piece, Midnighter, Runner of the Oft-Mendacious Gazette. Probably a vampire. Open to any and all social actions
Mr Evil: Vengeful, somewhat insane. Currently is obsessed with the northern cardinal direction. Has dead family members. Wants to go north. Manages this account. North.
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MrEvil135
Posts: 39
7/13/2018
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incerteza wrote:
(A side note, the cats' intelligence might not be caused by the Parabola itself - non-Parabolan animals like rats, ravens, and at least one spider are also smart enough to talk. It's possibly the general lawlessnes, most commonly associated with the Nadir.)
The thing about cats though, is that if you meet some in the Mirror Marches (as I have done so many times, the University quest really is aggravating that way), your character will mention that the cats remind you of the cats you know in london. Heck, one even asks you "Did you escape from the labyrinth?" talking as if he knows of the labyrinth of tigers and the horrors of the third coil. It's as if the cats from Parabola are leaking into the real world, and visa-versa.
edited by MrEvil135 on 7/13/2018
edited by MrEvil135 on 7/13/2018
--
This account represents the FALLEN CITIES INVESTIGATION TEAM. Our current members
Alejandro: Our proud leader, minor poet, chess piece, Midnighter, Runner of the Oft-Mendacious Gazette. Probably a vampire. Open to any and all social actions
Mr Evil: Vengeful, somewhat insane. Currently is obsessed with the northern cardinal direction. Has dead family members. Wants to go north. Manages this account. North.
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incerteza
Posts: 103
7/13/2018
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MrEvil135 wrote:
The thing about cats though, is that if you meet some in the Mirror Marches (as I have done so many times, the University quest really is aggravating that way), your character will mention that the cats remind you of the cats you know in london. Heck, one even asks you "Did you escape from the labyrinth?" talking as if he knows of the labyrinth of tigers and the horrors of the third coil. It's as if the cats from Parabola are leaking into the real world, and visa-versa.
edited by MrEvil135 on 7/13/2018
Yes, they are definitely semi-Parabolan, I don't argue about that. I just meant, their intelligence might be explained by more common lawlessness.
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MrEvil135
Posts: 39
7/13/2018
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True, general lawlessness is a trait pertained only in the Neath, but that's the reason why I said only the cats in the Neath are Shroedinger's cats. A bit of a observational joke given the lore I have uncovered so far. I hear most of the Parabola lore comes from the last section of the shadowy Making Your Name storylets, in Mahogany Hall. I really must try to finish it at some point.
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This account represents the FALLEN CITIES INVESTIGATION TEAM. Our current members
Alejandro: Our proud leader, minor poet, chess piece, Midnighter, Runner of the Oft-Mendacious Gazette. Probably a vampire. Open to any and all social actions
Mr Evil: Vengeful, somewhat insane. Currently is obsessed with the northern cardinal direction. Has dead family members. Wants to go north. Manages this account. North.
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Jolanda Swan
Posts: 1783
7/13/2018
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Very, very insightful.
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Lover of all things beautiful, secret admirer of ugly truths, fond of the Parabola Sun... and always delighted to role play.
http://fallenlondon.com/profile/Jolanda%20Swan
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MrEvil135
Posts: 39
7/15/2018
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Here's another interesting idea. All of us go through the same motions while in the neath, the Making Your Name quests, siding with the Last Constable or The Cheery Man, pursuing ambition, or in the most unwise of cases, Seeking the Name. Yet every time one of us does this thing, it's treated as if it never happened before. How many times has the last constable fought with the Cheery Man? This brings another fact regarding us as all cats in the neath. Perhaps it is this way because the entire neath is in a sort of superposition. Some people side with the Last Constable, other the Cheery Man, but they happen multiple times in the same Neath. We are the cats, the Neath is our box, and we should pray that the Judgements don't decide to open up and take a look.
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This account represents the FALLEN CITIES INVESTIGATION TEAM. Our current members
Alejandro: Our proud leader, minor poet, chess piece, Midnighter, Runner of the Oft-Mendacious Gazette. Probably a vampire. Open to any and all social actions
Mr Evil: Vengeful, somewhat insane. Currently is obsessed with the northern cardinal direction. Has dead family members. Wants to go north. Manages this account. North.
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Skinnyman
Posts: 2133
7/15/2018
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MrEvil135 wrote:
We are the cats, the Neath is our box, and we should pray that the Judgements don't decide to open up and take a look.
Well...
SMEN spoiler from Deep Archives of the College of St Cyriac (obtaining the calling card)
[spoiler]But the laws of the Judgements, whose mask is God, lie upon us all even here beneath the earth. Lightly, but so they lie.[/spoiler]
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ESs items and quality requirements sheet. Please check if there are errors or if something is missing
Achievement list if you're feeling bored!
I am accepting Plant battles, Neath's Mysteries card, Starveling Cats and boxed cats.
No suppers, no second chances gain and no need to cure my menaces!
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