TheThirdPolice
Posts: 609
3/30/2018
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Uncovering the Neath's mysteries was one of my favourite activities many years ago when Echo Bazaar began. I would love to recapture that feeling, and I'm sure many of you are a lot more knowledgeable than I am. There are many things to discuss, big and small (and I should really think about that Mystery tab soon).
Let's skip the spoiler tags and assume this whole thread will be full of secrets. In addition to discussing these, feel free to add your own questions — if the thread gets unwieldy I'll curate the list by editing this post (which is why the numbering gets out of order).
NOTE: I will no longer be updating this post. Instead see this google sheet. This post and the thread below will still contain more details than the sheet.
UNANSWERED MYSTERIES:
3. Who wrote “A proposal to ban black-painted ships from the river, written in a cramped hand on scented letter-paper” and why? UPDATE: It is perhaps relevant that the phrase "a world painted black" appears in reference to Surface anarchists and Night-Liberators
9. Why is the Banded Prince's seat of power called the Resplendent Court of the Wakeful Eye? And who originally built this crumbled palace?
10. What exactly is the Red Book of the Presbyterate? And what to make of its phrase "When we leave the light, we encounter the darkness. When we leave the darkness, we do not always encounter light."? UPDATE from Grumpy_Kong: Perhaps this phrase is a literal dig at the poor quality of other Neathlight compared to the Mountain's luminance.
11. What is a proper translation for the weird little thieves' proverb "Downstairs for the crushers, upstairs for the push, and the roof for the windering"?
13. Do all Clay Men have names? We've met Norbert and Jasper and Frank but it seems likely this only applies to the more human-adjacent. It's hard to tell with FL's naming style so I'm wondering if this is discussed more explicitly somewhere.
26. Can sentient nonhumans or Drownis be members of the Church in Fallen London, according to official policy? Asked by evergreenmonster
OLD MYSTERIES
[spoiler]
LIKELY ANSWERED MYSTERIES:
1. Why do the Clay Men want to spread horrifying tales of Polythreme? ("MORE OF YOU KNOW OF THE TRUE NATURE OF POLYTHREME,' says a Clay Man, next time you visit. 'THIS IS GOOD.' ") UPDATES from Optimatum & JainaEgo: The motive is possibly a commitment to accuracy rather than a desire to make Polythreme seem scary. Alternatively, perhaps they wish to motivate do-gooders to help more Clay Men leave Polythreme for London.
2. Why is the Fathomking called His Complexity by Drownies and Dockers? His whim is legendary, but does anyone know a more detailed story? ANSWERED by Optimatum: The title fits his mutating physiology as well as his behavior; this seems sufficient to explain it.
7. The Firebrand mentions the alchemist Mynsicht and (presumably the poet) "Winstanley's patroness" discussing the Nadir. Are these just a sprinkling of real names to add depth, or is Failbetter referencing specific statements? And who was Winstanley's patroness anyway? EDIT: Actually, the revolutionary Digger Gerrard Winstanley is a better fit than the poet, given the Firebrand's affiliation. This is confirmed by GW's "mystic aristocrat" contact Lady Eleanor Davies, who wrote books of prophecy. I doubt there's anything specific to find here, but if anyone wants to dig through some strange old texts it could be fun...
8. Why does exactly one spire of the Bazaar lack carved Correspondence sigils? The Master who meets you at this spire, at the end of the University murder mystery story, speaks in a high pitched whisper — not sure which this is but we can rule out Iron and Pages. (BONUS fun question: the stairs of this spire are built for claws, not feet. What do such stairs look like? Are they cylinders rather than flat, or even just airy cylindrical rungs arranged in a stair shape?) ANSWERED by JainaEgo and DuneTheWanderer: There is likely no special significance to the empty spire assuming the spires are the blank pages for the Bazaar to write its messages for transport. Perhaps the Bazaar grew/constructed this spire after or shortly before its arrival in the Neath.
18. The tomb-colonist moth transformation is apparently a self-directed "sidestep on the Great Chain" and nothing to do with the Flukes or other powers. Asked by Grumpy_Kong, answered by HeirOfLight. Update by me: Researching this, I discovered that the Most-Moth is described as a "gift" (possibly a sarcastic use of the word) from the Mountain to Lorenzo the Almost Dead Man, i.e. one of the Seven Against Nidah who stormed that city to take back immortality. Are all moths gifts of the mountain, much like the more straightforward type of immortality? Or did the Mountain use an existing phenomenon to punish or reward this fellow?
19. I was thinking about one mystery answer the other day, about how Sir Stamford Raffles brought the tigers to the labyrinth. What bothered me is the fact Raffles died before the fall. So does it just mean by founding the ZSL he brought the tigers? Why the specific answer? Where did the tigers even come from? Is the tiger population in the labyrinth a mix of Surface tigers and Elder Continent tigers? Or maybe just EC tigers? Did they even have tigers before the fall? Asked by admdiamond. Answered by JainaEgo & Optimatum & rahv7 & me: Varchas (or its settlers) came from the surface long ago (independent of the Bazaar) from somewhere in Asia. The tigers down here have a large population and a long history with the Fingerkings, so it seems likely that this distant event is when the first tiger population was introduced to the Elder Continent. It's also possible that the first cats came from the Mountain of Light's Garden, as humans and Snuffers seem to have, but there's no direct evidence either way. As for Sir Raffles, he may have found the Neath before London fell, but even if not, he would not be the first Fallen London character whose biography differed slightly from the source material. I also ran across a reference that suggests tigers are potentially (but not necessarily) even older than Varchas: they once ruled one of the Presbyterate's seventy-seven kingdoms.
FULLY ANSWERED MYSTERIES:
4. How did the phrase "The Lao—" end before it was interrupted by a torn page?
("More rarefied and elaborate roles? The last page in the bundle has been torn half-across. It reads, 'The Lao—' ") ANSWERED by suinicide: the unreleased profession Laocoönian, of which we know little
5. The Revolutionaries use the Bach cantata "Wachet Auf" to deliver signals to sleeper agents. Unless there's some deeper layer here, this is due to its English name "Sleepers Wake". This one was easy to solve myself, but I wanted to share an example of Failbetter's wonderful attention to detail.
6. Does Abstraction affect Unaccountably Peckish, or the compulsion to Seek? A heavily stained soul is required for Seeking, but as far as I know you can then sell it and keep going. Is this ever discussed more explicitly? ANSWERED by cathyr19355, hekazu, and REDACTED: devils refuse to purchase stained souls and even have an adverse physical reaction to them
12. Another easily answered but fun reference: the reference to a court case "R v Malphas" refers to a Great Prince of Hell from the demonological text the Lesser Key of Solomon
14. The White is a Judgement spy master, who seeks the Counsel of Peace (extinction of suns?) as preferable to the changes or extinctions sought by the Liberation of Night. Info from Alexis here unavailable in-game Asked by MastrTMF, answered by rahv7 & Peridigital
17. The oft-referenced marble shipments to the Tomb Colonies are used to build the Grand Sanatorium, an evil place where the most decrepit of Tomb Colonists are housed for their final, endless decay. Asked by Grumpy_Kong
15. What do the flukes get out of the various bad things that happen to the Bazaar in the various spoilery fates and Sunless Seas content? I mean, it seems they got exactly what they wanted out of the bargain... Asked by Grumpy_Kong. Answered by A Nice Friend & illuminati swag: The Bazaar abandoned the Flukes and may have forbid them from interfering in matters of love and stories. The mutual animosity also stems from the Flukes' alliance with Mr Candles, who became Mr Eaten due to the other Masters' betrayal.
16. Is the thief-of-faces a Fluke project gone and set itself up as a major player? Did he most recently steal Salt's face and that's why no one has seen It around for a while? Asked by Grumpy_Kong. Answered by suinicide, JainaEgo, St Arthur: The Lorn-Flukes did create the Thief-of-Faces, and it does have major ambitions: specifically, it stole a piece of the Mountain of Light to make Mount Nomad, for which the Mountain imprisoned it in Flint, but it later escaped. Salt probably vanished into the East; as far as we know the Thief-of-Faces was not involved there.
20. Why is Storm in the Neath, what is its purpose, why is it so angry, and how did it die? Asked by Carbattle; answered by JainaEgo and rahv7: Based on the interpretation that Storm is "the Hunter" in the play The Seventh Letter (and the line "Ah, were it only my unfettered choice. But I owe him his hunts and the joys of his voice."), Storm arrived in the Neath to enforce the Judgements' laws, but has allowed the Bazaar to continue its plot with a seven city limit. It is unknown how it died and what exactly death means for it — though its thoughts can have strange effects on our dreams — but you might be angry too if you were dead, or if you were a space dragon cop. A Nice Friend speculates that suicide may have been its only merciful alternative to punishing the Bazaar.
21. Why the heck does the Scuttling Squad (or perhaps some other rats) send people Venge-Rat corpses filled with diamonds with notes saying, "DONE BECAUSE WE ARE TOO MENNY"? asked by DuneSabaku; answered by Barse: a reference to a pretty tragic bit in Jude the Obscure - why the rats are doing it, though, I've no idea. Maybe there are just too many of them? :P
22. What does the royal family eat? asked by evergreenmonster; Answered by suinicide & JainaEgo: Raw goat. Honey. Wine. Possibly worse. JainaEgo also vaguely remembers the possibility of cannibalism but isn't certain of the memory.
23. In the Salt ambition in Sunless Sea, you (sorta?) become Salt by taking his name in Frostfound. Cormatron asks why you still have Salt's yearning if the Cladery Heir removes your earlobe and therefore your restlessness. I have no answer to this but I'm putting it under 'fully solved' anyway because I doubt this is anything more than a minor plot hole.
24. Why are moon pearls useful for clocks? Asked by evergreenmonster, answered by me: The appearance of moon-pearls changes predictably over time to match the phases of the moon, which seems useful for a timekeeping device.
25. So if death doesnt happen in the 'neath how does aging work? Do people age slower, not at all, what? Asked by evergreenmonster, answered by me: People continue to age, although I get the impression the decay is more about accumulated damage and a reduced ability to recover from wounds. Eventually you become a tomb-colonist, and eventually the tomb-colonists who do not find a better ending start to lose their ability to speak, to see, etc.
[/spoiler]
edited by TheThirdPolice on 4/5/2018
edited by TheThirdPolice on 4/5/2018
edited by TheThirdPolice on 7/21/2018
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Excessive Corpse & Tender to Irreal Ravens
Lover of Flawed Souls
And with especial pride, Worst Screwup of the Decade!
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Vavakx Nonexus
Posts: 892
4/6/2018
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Aniline wrote:
Since we're on the topic of the Mountain:
THIS COUNTRY - MOUTH-OF-THE-RIVER - THIS WAS THE PLACE OF HER OVERTHROW
...what's it about? Most of the all-caps quality texts you get in destiny locations are actually taken from the Pyramid Texts, mainly the Cannibal Hymns.
Utterance 282 wrote:
"O this country (xAs.t) Mouth-of-the-River,
this is the place of my overthrow.
This country, Mouth-of-the-River belongs to me, the Gold of the Praise,
It is xaj-tA.w of the praise, this your ox,
the renowned one, against whom this has been done." For the Castle of Forest's OPEN ARE THE DOUBLE-DOORS OF THE HORIZON...
Utterance 220 wrote:
"Opened are the double doors of the horizon; unlocked are its bolts.
Alternatively: The doors of the horizon open themselves, its bolts slide." Down Among The Flukes has THERE ARE GODS WHO LIVETH ON THEIR FATHERS, FEEDETH ON THEIR MOTHERS, which also comes from the Cannibal Hymns.
Utterance 273 wrote:
"Clouds darken the sky,
The stars rain down,
The Bows [a constellation] stagger,
The bones of the hell-hounds tremble,
The porters are silent,
When they see king Unis,
Dawning as a soul,
As a god living on his fathers,
Feeding on his mothers." The Liberation of Night gets its I HAD A DREAM, WHICH WAS NOT ALL A DREAM from Lord Byron's Darkness, breaking the Egyptian pattern.
Darkness wrote:
I had a dream, which was not all a dream.
The bright sun was extinguish'd, and the stars
Did wander darkling in the eternal space,
Rayless, and pathless, and the icy earth
Swung blind and blackening in the moonless air;
For the fifth and only remaining desting, A Long Road, I don't have the slightest clue. ASCEND NOW TO YOUR PLACE IN THE SUN never comes up word-for-word in what Egyptian texts I've seen and it's the sort of phrase that could pop up just about anywhere.
[spoiler]On the topic of references to Egyptian texts, the option for sending an Antedeluvian Ushabti to somebody is titled "I repeat to you the good deeds which my own heart did for me from within the serpent-coil", which comes from the Coffin Texts!
Coffin text 1130 wrote:
Hail in peace! I repeat to you the good deeds which my own heart did for me from within the serpent-coil, in order to silence strife...
I made the four winds, that every man might breathe in his time..
I made the great inundation, that the humble might benefit by it like the great...
I made every man like his fellow; and I did not command that they do wrong. It is their hearts which disobey what I have said...
I have created the gods from my sweat, and the people from the tears of my eye. [/spoiler]
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Amets Estibariz, the Moulting Eidolon: Cradled by a sun all their own.
Blabbing, the Hobo Everyone Knows: The One Who Pulls The Strings. A Clarity In The Darkness.
Charlotte and the Caretaker: A family?
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Optimatum
Posts: 3666
7/21/2018
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TheThirdPolice wrote:
26. Why is the permit to the Side Streets of the Bazaar called a Shaper's Pass?
What does it mean to be a Shaper? Complete guess, but I bet it's the same concept as Notability and being a Person of Some Importance. It's about having the narrative weight to shape stories.
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Optimatum, a ruthless and merciful gentleman. No plant battles, Affluent Photographer requests, or healing offers; all other social actions welcome.
 Want a sip of Cider? Just say hi!
PM me for information enigmatic or Fated. Though the forum please, not FL itself.
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a Nice Friend
Posts: 127
4/8/2018
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I think the Red-handed Queen is just a powerful parabolan entity and Scathewick (and/or the Captivating Princess) is just one of her agents in the waking world.
The Red-handed Queen is usually accompanied by chess imagery, so she might be related to the Great Game or the Greater Game. I don't know. She's one of those Neathy entities that we just don't really have a lot to go on.
edit: the Captivating Princess is a monster, like all of the Empress' children, she just got a sort of... makeover.
edited by a Nice Friend on 4/8/2018
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Definitely a nice friend - http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/a%20nice%20friend
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SingingFlame
Posts: 34
4/8/2018
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a Nice Friend wrote:
I think the Red-handed Queen is just a powerful parabolan entity and Scathewick (and/or the Captivating Princess) is just one of her agents in the waking world.
The Red-handed Queen is usually accompanied by chess imagery, so she might be related to the Great Game or the Greater Game. I don't know. She's one of those Neathy entities that we just don't really have a lot to go on.
edit: the Captivating Princess is a monster, like all of the Empress' children, she just got a sort of... makeover.
edited by a Nice Friend on 4/8/2018
I think Dr. Carrywell might have a stronger connection to the Red-Handed Queen than Scathewick. Her portrait is the same one used for the Queen in the Parabolan destinies, and her harvesting secrets from the nearly dead points to a possible Great Game connection.
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Matilda Ydmos, the Discerning Huntress (Nemesis)
Anne Carnacki, the Audacious Canon (Heart's Desire)
Eleanor Redrick, the Stalwart Well-Widow (Bag a Legend!)
-Any social actions welcomed-
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TheThirdPolice
Posts: 609
7/21/2018
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Reasonable. A high level of social influence names you "A Shaper of Tastes". The only other reference to Shaper I can find is probably unrelated — a maddened Snuffer's battle cry "For the Shaper" presumably refers to its good old dad.
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Excessive Corpse & Tender to Irreal Ravens
Lover of Flawed Souls
And with especial pride, Worst Screwup of the Decade!
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Azothi
Posts: 586
8/7/2018
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I can't help but suspect that the Gulbahar Redaction may be hinting at a connection to the Sultan's Dream that has been teased for years now.
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Azoth I, the Emissary of Cardinals - A Paramount Presence (not currently accepting new Proteges)
Away to where the Chain cannot bind us.
 Hesperidean.
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Barse
Posts: 706
8/7/2018
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Having a flick through the spreadsheet and noticed one or two things that I know a little about!
A Thieves' Proverb wrote:
"Downstairs for the crushers, upstairs for the push, and the roof for the windering"
Crushers I believe are the police, in reference to the big "beetle-crushers" or boots that policemen at the time wore. Push means the money or valuables. Not entirely sure about windering, but it seems likely to just be window/means of escape. I used a couple of sources, but this has the definitions of the first two.
The Red Book of the Presbyterate wrote:
"Work is completed by day. Dark-work is by its nature not work but crime."
Another proverb from the Red Book to go along with the other one quoted on the sheet. I'm also half-tempted to believe that the Order Vespertine inscriptions come from the Red Book or something associated. Maybe it's just the contexts in which we encounter it, but the Red Book seems to have a preoccupation with light and dark, and the link between light and law.
edited by Barse on 8/7/2018
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 The Scorched Sailor, up for most social actions and RP. Not as scary as he looks.
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Optimatum
Posts: 3666
4/9/2018
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Only bad batches of it, but we have no clue what exactly makes a batch bad.
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Optimatum, a ruthless and merciful gentleman. No plant battles, Affluent Photographer requests, or healing offers; all other social actions welcome.
Want a sip of Cider? Just say hi!
PM me for information enigmatic or Fated. Though the forum please, not FL itself.
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Optimatum
Posts: 3666
3/30/2018
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1. I don't think it's that the Clay Men want to spread scary tales of Polythreme as much as they want to spread accurate tales. You can make the tales scarier by twisting their words, after which the Clay Men hate you. They also don't like it if you write a scary travelogue, while writing a neutral or positive travelogue gets a good reaction.
2. I'm pretty sure it's because he's very complex biologically: "Hearts," he muses. "I should develop another one. I grow more elaborate by the day."
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Optimatum, a ruthless and merciful gentleman. No plant battles, Affluent Photographer requests, or healing offers; all other social actions welcome.
Want a sip of Cider? Just say hi!
PM me for information enigmatic or Fated. Though the forum please, not FL itself.
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Jaina
Posts: 239
4/7/2018
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Who is the Red-Handed Queen? She appears in the Chess dreams, Parabola (in a destiny), and maybe somewhere else. She's clearly significant but I cannot for the life of me figure out who or what she is. Is she some kind of Devil that didn't leave Parabola? A person powerful enough in the world of dreams to control it, the way alley cats do?
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Cair-Var, a power-hungry lover of Devils and Rubberies
Hungry Ego, A morally upstanding citizen
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a Nice Friend
Posts: 127
3/31/2018
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On the Flukes:
When the Bazaar found them unsuitable for its scheme, it basically abandoned them and forbid them from love, and most likely forbid them from interfering with its precious stories. Their existence is barely tolerated as long as they stay out of sight.
The life it promised them was probably so much more than what they got.
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Definitely a nice friend - http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/a%20nice%20friend
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suinicide
Posts: 2409
4/3/2018
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22) raw goat. Honey. Wine. Possibly worse.
edited by suinicide on 4/3/2018
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http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/profile/sunnytime
A gentleman seeking the liberation of knowledge, with a penchant for violence.
RIP suinicide, stuck in a well. Still has it under control.
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Barse
Posts: 706
4/3/2018
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21 at least is a reference to a pretty tragic bit in Jude the Obscure - why the rats are doing it, though, I've no idea. Maybe there are just too many of them? :P
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The Scorched Sailor, up for most social actions and RP. Not as scary as he looks.
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a Nice Friend
Posts: 127
4/3/2018
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Since Storm's purpose is to enforce the law (probably via murder) I wonder if it had to self-destruct in order to show the Bazaar mercy.
Storm's thoughts and dreams seem to be stuck bouncing and echoing around the cavern roof of the Neath, giving it a sort of second life. This is probably why the Neath is sometimes referred to as the skull of a long-dead pagan god: it houses Storm's mind!
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Definitely a nice friend - http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/a%20nice%20friend
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TheThirdPolice
Posts: 609
4/5/2018
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I'll continue to update the first post but at this point it seems easier to update you folk here as well on the reddit discussion (I'll leave you to read the above yourselves):
New Unanswered:
26. Can sentient nonhumans or Drownies be members of the Church in Fallen London? Asked by evergreenmonster (This is a question to direct roleplaying, so while many of us know about a certain secretly nonhuman church member, the question is more about church policy.)
New Fully Solved:
24. Why are moon pearls useful for clocks? Asked by evergreenmonster, answered by me: The appearance of moon-pearls changes predictably over time to match the phases of the moon, which seems useful for a timekeeping device.
25. So if death doesnt happen in the 'neath how does aging work? Do people age slower, not at all, what? Asked by evergreenmonster, answered by me: People continue to age, although I get the impression the decay is more about accumulated damage and a reduced ability to recover from wounds. Eventually you become a tomb-colonist, and eventually the tomb-colonists who do not find a better ending start to lose their ability to speak, to see, etc.
edited by TheThirdPolice on 4/5/2018
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Excessive Corpse & Tender to Irreal Ravens
Lover of Flawed Souls
And with especial pride, Worst Screwup of the Decade!
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Optimatum
Posts: 3666
4/5/2018
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25. Note that Tomb-Colonists who live long enough also go mad outright, hence the Sanitarium. All Things Must End tells us that the oldest ones can even see the Far Country, where the permanently dead go.
26. No clue if they officially can join the Church, but Drownies pretty much never leave the water if they can help it. The ones in Dahut have their own church, but their worship is about the Fathomking and the sea rather.
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Optimatum, a ruthless and merciful gentleman. No plant battles, Affluent Photographer requests, or healing offers; all other social actions welcome.
Want a sip of Cider? Just say hi!
PM me for information enigmatic or Fated. Though the forum please, not FL itself.
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Optimatum
Posts: 3666
4/5/2018
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I suspect that the Presbyter doesn't actually have any method of giving or taking eternal life. Citizens are not allowed to live past a thousand years, but the Presbyterate Adventuress's father did just that, so it's clearly possible. As such I suspect citizens are supposed to submit themselves to execution on their thousandth birthday.
Also, re: aging, the Adventuress notes that she's much older than she looks, so proximity to Stone does visibly slow aging outright.
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Optimatum, a ruthless and merciful gentleman. No plant battles, Affluent Photographer requests, or healing offers; all other social actions welcome.
Want a sip of Cider? Just say hi!
PM me for information enigmatic or Fated. Though the forum please, not FL itself.
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Jaina
Posts: 239
4/6/2018
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Does Hesperidian Cider come from the garden? I was under the impression it was made from apples from Parabola.
Who is Nicator?
Also, the Presbyterate Adventuress was destined to age a lot more severely than the folks in Fallen London seem to. It seemed like on some level the Presbyter was able to actually affect that, although I could have just misinterpreted her story in Sunless Sea.
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Cair-Var, a power-hungry lover of Devils and Rubberies
Hungry Ego, A morally upstanding citizen
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suinicide
Posts: 2409
4/6/2018
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The cider is at least heavily related to the garden, as it gives visions of it.
Nicator was a (the first?) Presbyterian king, who died because of something he saw in the mirror. He appears in SMEN, rather worse for wear.
The adventuress was being hunted, so the presbyter could give her that death.
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http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/profile/sunnytime
A gentleman seeking the liberation of knowledge, with a penchant for violence.
RIP suinicide, stuck in a well. Still has it under control.
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a Nice Friend
Posts: 127
4/6/2018
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Hesperidian Apples grow in the garden, which is only accessible by winged creatures. Sometimes they drop the seeds outside of the garden though, I think? You do find a hesperidian apple in a dream in Sunless Sea, I forget how it got there.
The Capering Relicker was the first person to brew hesperidian cider from the apples but he's unfortunately a bit loopy, so good luck getting any useful answers out of him. Dude's thousands of years old. (though his nephew the Manager of the Royal Beth seems much more coherent)
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Optimatum
Posts: 3666
4/1/2018
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16. The Thief-of-Faces is in some way the progeny of the Flukes, as iirc it was created since they left Axile. I doubt it's powerful enough to take on a Judgement's shape though. (I don't think it outright attacked Stone either, just stole a life-diamond from the Garden while Stone wasn't paying attention, so not sure we know relative power levels.)
19. Given that tigers have established seats of power and a lot of history with the Fingerkings (wars, claimed territories, etc) it's reasnable to say they were around before London. Either a previous city brought them or they originated from the Elder Continent. (Or surface tigers came from the Neath, which isn't that far fetched, given Stone's possible role as Garden of Eden and source of life on Earth.)
Jaina wrote:
Wasn't the Clay Coalman all about bringing more Clay Men to London? Maybe he was an exception, but from my chats with him and the Clay Quarters stuff it seems like they really don't like their homeland.
Not sure about the Clay Men in London, but there's a Clay Broker in Polythreme who explicitly says the shipments of obedient Clay Men to London are a tithe for the Masters.
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Optimatum, a ruthless and merciful gentleman. No plant battles, Affluent Photographer requests, or healing offers; all other social actions welcome.
Want a sip of Cider? Just say hi!
PM me for information enigmatic or Fated. Though the forum please, not FL itself.
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Jaina
Posts: 239
4/1/2018
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Post about the family tree of the Bazaar from Spacemarine9's fantastic blog http://saint-arthur.tumblr.com/post/139091455609/can-you-please-explain-the-bazaars-family-tree (relevant for Flukes, Fathomking, and Thief of Faces)
19. Varchas was a city that fell from the surface onto the Elder Continent. It was somewhere around Cambodia
http://thefifthcity.wikia.com/wiki/Varchas
Wild tigers used to live in southeast Asia, including Cambodia, so it is not unreasonable to assume that some fell with the city that became Varchas. (note: this doesn't mean that they were necessarily the first tigers [and definitely not the first cats, given Amarna's descent] in the neath, but it's the most likely source of surface tigers in sufficient quantities to establish a breeding population).
edited by JainaEgo on 4/1/2018
edited by JainaEgo on 4/1/2018
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Cair-Var, a power-hungry lover of Devils and Rubberies
Hungry Ego, A morally upstanding citizen
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TheThirdPolice
Posts: 609
4/3/2018
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Updated again! There are some more things added to the likely/fully solved mysteries due to reddit discussions transferred here. I'm going to post one here as well because I went deep on some Sunless Sea wiki reading and discovered a potential origin of the moth transformation I've never seen anyone pick up on before:
[spoiler]Lorenzo the Almost Dead Man was one of the Seven who traveled to the Mountain of Light and attacked the city of Nidah in a failed bid to steal back immortality for mankind. Though they failed, Lorenzo describes the Most Moth painfully growing inside him as a "gift" of the Mountain.[/spoiler]
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Excessive Corpse & Tender to Irreal Ravens
Lover of Flawed Souls
And with especial pride, Worst Screwup of the Decade!
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suinicide
Posts: 2409
3/30/2018
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4 probably goes on to talk about the laocoonian, one of the unimplemented jobs. Probably describing what it does.
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http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/profile/sunnytime
A gentleman seeking the liberation of knowledge, with a penchant for violence.
RIP suinicide, stuck in a well. Still has it under control.
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TheThirdPolice
Posts: 609
3/30/2018
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Thanks, suinicide. I didn't realize we knew the names of unreleased professions using the "unlocked by" text. Laocoön did come to mind since "Lao" is such an unusual start to a word. It's a very odd name for a profession: Laocoön has a cameo in the Aeneid where he warns against the Trojan horse and then gets killed by sea serpents. So a Laocoönian is maybe a Doomed Monster-Hunter a la Sunless Sea, or maybe a poorly trusted prophet (though Cassandra would be a more obvious reference there).
Anyway, assuming all we have to go on is the name, I'll mark that solved and add question 6 to the original post.
edited by TheThirdPolice on 3/30/2018
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Excessive Corpse & Tender to Irreal Ravens
Lover of Flawed Souls
And with especial pride, Worst Screwup of the Decade!
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Catherine Raymond
Posts: 2518
3/30/2018
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TheThirdPolice wrote:
Thanks, suinicide. I didn't realize we knew the names of unreleased professions using the "unlocked by" text. Laocoön did come to mind since "Lao" is such an unusual start to a word. It's a very odd name for a profession: Laocoön has a cameo in the Aeneid where he warns against the Trojan horse and then gets killed by sea serpents. So a Laocoönian is maybe a Doomed Monster-Hunter a la Sunless Sea, or maybe a poorly trusted prophet (though Cassandra would be a more obvious reference there).
Anyway, assuming all we have to go on is the name, I'll mark that solved and add another question:
6. Does Abstraction affect Unaccountably Peckish, or the compulsion to Seek? A heavily stained soul is required for Seeking, but as far as I know you can then sell it and keep going. Is this ever discussed more explicitly?
[spoiler]The Devils won't take a stained soul. See, for example, http://fallenlondon.wikia.com/wiki/Your_soul_is_stained_now [/spoiler]
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Cathy Raymond
http://fallenlondon.com/Profile/cathyr19355
Catherine Raymond aka Mrs. Rykar Malkus http://fallenlondon.com/Profile/Catherine%20Raymond (Gone NORTH)
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Optimatum
Posts: 3666
4/8/2018
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The Red-Handed Queen is either the Captivating Princess or Carrywell from Ambition: Nemesis. Either way, we don't know much about the dream-persona.
Edit: As pointed out, Scathewick is the wrong character.
edited by Optimatum on 4/9/2018
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Optimatum, a ruthless and merciful gentleman. No plant battles, Affluent Photographer requests, or healing offers; all other social actions welcome.
Want a sip of Cider? Just say hi!
PM me for information enigmatic or Fated. Though the forum please, not FL itself.
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Dune
Posts: 2
3/30/2018
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I suspect that the unadorned Spire was created the most recently of the spires of the Bazaar.
[spoiler]The Masters are not human, as can be easily elaborated. However, what they actually are is a bit of a more complicated question. They are from the High Wilderness, and originally joined the Bazaar when it first entered the Neath to attempt to cultivate the cities that Fell in order to acquire a love story of sufficient potency. They are apparently far more bat-like than humanoid, which explains their high-pitched voices. The claw-based stairs probably look similar to a climbing ladder one sees in the cages of domestic birds, and would likely be far more comfortable for a creature based on bats.
As for why the spire is unadorned, one must understand the nature of the Correspondence itself. The Correspondence is just that - a form of communication. Specifically between stars. Yes, those stars. The stars, also known as Judgements, send messages to each other across the High Wilderness via couriers, of which the Bazaar was once of their number. If the unadorned spire was indeed built after the Fall, it isn't decorated with Correspondence sigils because the Bazaar hasn't couriered a message since then.[/spoiler]
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TheThirdPolice
Posts: 609
3/31/2018
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Several more questions added from reddit! Some of them were answered there and went straight to the solved section — I recommend checking those out if you haven't seen Alexis' exclusive Kickstarter answer about the nature of the White.
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Excessive Corpse & Tender to Irreal Ravens
Lover of Flawed Souls
And with especial pride, Worst Screwup of the Decade!
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PSGarak
Posts: 834
4/6/2018
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The Mountain Stone has a wound, from which flows a river of blood with exceptional vital properties. I believe the wound is also related to the Thief of Faces, in a way that seems plausibly thematically related to the idea of being overthrown in some fashion.
For a more detailed breakdown of the nature of this river, its properties, and its symbolism I direct you to Anne Auclaire's post from 11/28 in this thread on Darkdrop Coffee: http://community.failbettergames.com/topic23268-considering-darkdrop-coffee.aspx?Page=1 .
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http://fallenlondon.com/Profile/PSGarak
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Optimatum
Posts: 3666
4/6/2018
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Misc stuff:
- Hesperidean Cider is made from Hesperidean Apples, which originated in the Garden.
- You can indeed find a tree in Parabola in Sunless Sea, but that's not its native environment.
- The Garden seems to be outright inside the Mountain, according to No More Dominion.
- I don't think it's so much that only winged creatures can access the Garden, as that the Presbyterate prevents access to the Garden but outlaws harming winged creatures.
- THIS COUNTRY - MOUTH-OF-THE-RIVER - THIS WAS THE PLACE OF HER OVERTHROW: This is either referring to Adam's Way or Nidah. Either way, the subject of the overthrow in question is Stone: the relevant destinies are about either destroying the Mountain or otherwise revolutionizing who has access to immortality.
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Optimatum, a ruthless and merciful gentleman. No plant battles, Affluent Photographer requests, or healing offers; all other social actions welcome.
Want a sip of Cider? Just say hi!
PM me for information enigmatic or Fated. Though the forum please, not FL itself.
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Ixc
Posts: 365
4/6/2018
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For the thieves proverb, I think the crusher is a breaking and entering tool, such as crushing glass to enter a building. The push is continuing on, and is the most taxing and dangerous stretch in case of detection. To winder is to wind (as in wind a rope), so it could be like using a cable or zip line to descend and escape.
Just wondering, but where did you find that proverb?
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Pleased to meet you. Ixc, spy and detective. Inventor of the Correspondence Cannon.
Are you a Paramount Presence? Record your name here. For posterity, of course.
Out of the night that covers me,
Black as the pit from pole to pole,
I thank whatever gods may be
For my unconquerable soul.
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Optimatum
Posts: 3666
4/6/2018
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Ixc wrote:
Just wondering, but where did you find that proverb?
It's from one of the heist cards.
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Optimatum, a ruthless and merciful gentleman. No plant battles, Affluent Photographer requests, or healing offers; all other social actions welcome.
Want a sip of Cider? Just say hi!
PM me for information enigmatic or Fated. Though the forum please, not FL itself.
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PSGarak
Posts: 834
4/9/2018
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Jaina wrote:
Is the Captivating Princess still human? I've gotten the impression that she is something more from our interactions. There's a danger there.
Unlike her siblings, she was born after London fell. We don't know everything of why this would make her different but among other things, she has never experienced the surface, and uh... the Consort must have been in his current state when she was sired. Feel free to speculate.
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http://fallenlondon.com/Profile/PSGarak
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a Nice Friend
Posts: 127
4/9/2018
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SingingFlame wrote:
I think Dr. Carrywell might have a stronger connection to the Red-Handed Queen than Scathewick. Her portrait is the same one used for the Queen in the Parabolan destinies, and her harvesting secrets from the nearly dead points to a possible Great Game connection.
Oops. I got Carrywell and Scathewick's names confused because I haven't actually played Nemesis, just read echoes and summaries.
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Definitely a nice friend - http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/a%20nice%20friend
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TheThirdPolice
Posts: 609
7/21/2018
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Seems like it would be fun to return to this once in a while, but I've made a couple changes to make it manageable:
First, I've moved everything to a google doc so no more constant forum post edits.
Second, I'm going to keep the google doc constrained to the more novel questions, and especially ones about specific game text or possible real-world references that have not gotten much community attention. You can still discuss whatever you want in this thread, I'm just not going to rehash years of community lore discussions, especially not about the central lore topics that the game is built around. (I have a sheet in the doc for these topics and may eventually point people in the right direction, but that's on the backburner.)
Anyway, let's have some more questions:
26. Why is the permit to the Side Streets of the Bazaar called a Shaper's Pass?
27. This passage from the Advent Calendar (Dec 21) is about interpreting omens from bats, and a clear reference to the famous nursery rhyme about magpies. But are these city names just chosen mostly for scansion, or is there any significance to them?
"One for sorrow, two for joy. Three for Paris, four for Troy. Five for Athens, six for Thebes and seven... hush. Not yet."
28. In a zailor bar: "The evening finishes with a fist-fight over the nature of 'the Pillars': a formation in a desert, an abandoned city of glass or a village of savage women."
This must be referencing Irem, but that place is so mysterious I'm wondering if we can pick something more out of these references. It's worth noting that these zailors tell you four completely true tales about other far-off ports, so despite the storylet framing them as tellers of "yarns" and "tall tales", these guys seem unusually well-informed. (The desert fits with Irem's real world origins in the Qu'ran, the glass with its connection to mirrors and parabola, but the savage women...?)
edited by TheThirdPolice on 7/21/2018
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Excessive Corpse & Tender to Irreal Ravens
Lover of Flawed Souls
And with especial pride, Worst Screwup of the Decade!
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TheThirdPolice
Posts: 609
8/7/2018
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Barse has sucked me into the Discord and now my neatly organized doc is expanding with more and more sloppy notes and weird connections.
And so far all I've asked them about is my current favourite lore string to tug: a proposal to ban black-painted ships on the river. It turns out black ships do appear in two other places, seemingly connected:
* In the Mind of a Long-Dead God, you see a fleet of ships (color unspecified) originally sailing East, but sacrificing to a contemptuous Storm in order to go North, Seeking-style.
* When discussing dreams of water, Seeking, and weather with Schlomo, he repeatedly makes references to Homer. Most relevantly, he mentions a fleet of black ships with wind "dearly bought from that angry god." The Iliad uses black ships as an epithet for the Greek armada several times, and that fleet infamously had to sacrifice Iphigenia to an angry god (Artemis) in order to get wind to sail to Troy.
But what could this voyage possibly be in-game? I've never heard of multiple ships sailing North to seek Eaten, or of Storm getting involved in their quest.
And secondly — if it's connected at all — why would anyone want to ban black-painted ships on the Stolen River? I only have one very tenuous connection for who the author of that proposal might be: the Duchess. Schlomo speaks to her about wells and your dreams of water (the only time I know of that the Duchess is connected to Seeking, though it's not surprising that she's knowledgeable about it), and the scented letter paper fits the character. But a proposal to ban a color of ship seems too trivial for such an intelligent and serious character.
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Excessive Corpse & Tender to Irreal Ravens
Lover of Flawed Souls
And with especial pride, Worst Screwup of the Decade!
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Dudebro Pyro
Posts: 755
9/19/2018
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Maybe I'm missing something, but I really don't see what's so significant about the blank spire. The Bazaar is collecting love stories, and inscribing them on its skin using correspondence (this is known for a fact). It stands to reason that it would have blank spaces on its skin, otherwise it wouldn't be able to collect any more stories (not without overwriting older ones, which seems to defeat the purpose). Unless it just throws any new stories at anywhere at random, it doesn't seem surprising that it would simply not have gotten around to filling that particular spire yet.
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Dudebro Pyro, eccentric scholar
Spare Starveling Kitties always welcome. I collect them.
For that matter, send me your unwanted cat boxes too.
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Jaina
Posts: 239
4/9/2018
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...I was not aware that red honey could transform you into a monster. Huh.
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Cair-Var, a power-hungry lover of Devils and Rubberies
Hungry Ego, A morally upstanding citizen
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