FailbetterFuzz
Administrator
Posts: 232
12/7/2017
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Greetings Skyfarers,
All going well, we'll be releasing an update with our new trading system next week. Prospects and Bargains are a little different to trade in Sunless Sea, and they work differently to trade in most other games, so we wrote a detailed blog post on how we developed them, and we also did a live stream on Twitch yesterday which you can check out for a demonstration on how the system works (I really recommend watching this one especially since we explain a couple of the outstanding bugs we will be launching with and why).
Once the update goes live, you've read the patch notes and are aware of any outstanding issues, then please jump in game and check it out. After you've got a good sense of it (and this may take a few hours since new Prospects and Bargains are generated every 30 in-game days), then jump on this thread and tell us what you think.
We'd like to know:
- If you think the system is too easy
- If you think it's too hard
- If you feel it's just right
- Any other feedback you have
Please bear in mind that this is just the first implementation. New Prospects and Bargains will be added throughout development, outstanding issues will be addressed, and mostly likely prices will be tweaked. This is why we are gathering all the feedback, so thank you in advance. Oh, and yes, we will be adding your Sovereigns to the Shop and Bazaar interfaces in a future update.
edited by FailbetterFuzz on 12/14/2017
edited by FailbetterFuzz on 4/6/2018
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Nanako
Posts: 536
12/16/2017
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A small specific comment, regarding this bargain:
https://i.imgur.com/x5GRtkv.png
Most of the bargains in the game have some explanation for the price. Explanations like:
-We bought all this stuff by accident
-we're fencing stolen/illegal goods
-The trader only makes short trips around the local area to aggregate produce
-The seller is undercutting competition, selling things they produced themselves
You get the idea.
Anyways with this specific example, i dont see a reason for it. This particular bargain was found in magdalenes and he was selling three barrels.
To take threee barrels of hours from lustrum, and drag them all the way over here, to sell them at 40% of market value? It doesnt make sense, he's making a huge loss any way you slice it. At that price difference he'd be better off visiting winchester and selling them there.
I think this bargain needs some explanation to justify the low price. Why is this seller willing to take such a low payment for the galaxy's hottest commodity, he could get more selling them to just about anyone anywhere
For comparison, see this bargain, also selling hours:
https://i.imgur.com/sO1PGJe.png
This one is good, because it explains that the hours he's selling are not from lustrum, but mined by his own hand from floating rocks. Hence, this one fits well into the self produce/undercutting justification. He can set whatever price he likes for his own labour
On the other hand, the original one at the top is a broker. That's a person who buys and sells things - he didn't mine those hours himself. The economics of it don't make sense when considering he'd have to buy them from whoever mined then, and then pay shipping costs to get them to whereveer he's selling them at
edited by Nanako on 12/17/2017
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Sunless Skies needs engine and speed control mechanics. Have a look at my design proposal for implementing it
http://community.failbettergames.com/topic25687-a-design-for-engines.aspx
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Jimmius
Posts: 31
12/15/2017
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this has made the game so much... easier? but I mean that in a good way. Like the game is now difficult, but not in a contrived way of "you just can't make enough to sustain yourself lol".
It rewards exploration and helps newer players explore the map with less dear, but also tempts you into taking risky routes and overextending, possibly incurring Condition or running out of supplies.
I was chased back from Carillion with two Marauders firing potshots and a Cantankeri mournfully wailing at me, and d__mn if it wasn't one of the coolest moments in the game so far, strafing and dodging shots whilst trying not to overheat the engine.
A+ addition so far, can't wait to see how it's expanded on.
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Kalirren
Posts: 6
12/26/2017
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I started a new game two nights ago, if it makes a difference. Don't know what the dev calendar is.
You should be able to buy anything at unattractively high price at New Winchester, as well as the major hubs. That's the whole point of big towns; you can find just about anything, but it's never at particularly attractive price.
Bargains do seem a bit too commonplace. Right now I find that I'm running around the Reach with no Prospects (I've fulfilled them all) and am still running into bargains left and right. Given that bargains live at places, but prospects are accepted and carried with you, I think the game would feel more mission-driven if Prospects were everywhere but you needed more luck to find bargains.
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The bewildered Everyman
Posts: 3
12/17/2017
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Hello everyone,
as i am in the process of testing the system, I am not really ready to give focused feedback just now. I do have a specific suggestion though.
Right now, we have 14 trade-goods, that are part of the trading-system and get imported into New Winchester. These are in order of base price:
Good
| Price
| Exporters
| Sack of Seeds
| 40
| 1,5 (Nature Reserve, (Hybras))
| Crate of Crockery
| 50
| 0
| Crate of Munitions
| 60
| 0
| Jumble of Souls
| 70
| 2 (Port Avon, Magdalenes)
| Barrel of Hours
| 80
| 2 (Port Prosper, Lustrum)
| Caddy of Tea
| 90
| 0
| Ministry Literature
| 100
| 0
| Gourd of Nectar
| 120
| 2 (Titania, Carillon)
| Pane of Glass
| 135
| 0
| Roll of Bombazine
| 150
| 0
| Bronzewood
| 175
| 2 (Circus, Traitors Wood)
| Caged Catch
| 200
| 0
| Selection of Souls
| 250
| 0
| Cask of Gemstones
| 300
| 0
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So, right now we have 5 goods that get imported by 2 ports and 9 goods that are not exported at all. From these goods, Glass, Munitions and Tea are relatively important for quests (Glass was explained earlier in this thread, Tea is important to fuel Port Avon, Munitions are required for traitors wood). I suspect this may be because there will be more ports (that have exports) in the final game, but right now it is kinda frustrating to hunt for a bargain not to get a good price but to get a specific good at all.
In light of this I would suggest spreading the exports out a bit.
One possible solution I devised based on the lore of the ports wouldlook something like this:
1a) Sack of Seeds could stay as it is (as Hybras looses its shop relatively quickly). But as I said, I think it would be nice to have the munition available at all times, so I could see the Nature Reserve selling munitions instead of seeds. After all, Leadbeater and Stainrod are a weapon-manufacturer in the lore.
2a) I think Port Avon has the better Story-Reason to sell souls (the ruins), so I would let them stay there.
2b) Magdalenes could sell Glass instead of Souls, as the red and golden windows are an important theme of the port.
3a) From the two ports that sell Hours, Lustrum is the one who I think has more lore reason to do so (they mine the hours after all and the story of the port revolves around it).
3b) Port Prosper could instead sell Caddies of Tea, as it is the end of an imperial trade-route and a stronghold of the London-aligned Windward-company. Also, it has a story-faction of noveau-riche West-Enders. Alternatively, Port Prosper with its industrial theme and slight overtones of war could sell the crates of munitions to have them available somwhere.
4a) I think, it's a hard question if Titania or Carillon has the better reason to sell Gourds of nectar, as both places have a connection to the cloister hives. So I have given both ports ideas for other exports.
4b) Titania could export Literature . They are a city of poets and Creators after all. (And have a loyalist faction that may be intend to have them approved by the ministry).
4c) Carillon could export Selections of Immaculate souls. In the end, the whole playe serves to refine souls after all. So it would make sense that they could sell some with hich quality.
5a) I think Traitors Wood has clearly the better in-story-reason to export bronzewood. It's an bronzewood-forest after all.
5b) The circus could instead export Rolls of bombazine. I think it's thematically okay, as the circus has prominent tents and costumes (it even has the player fetch some), so it may be sensible that they produce some forms of cloth.
I think implementing something like this would enhance the new system by giving players more reasons to revisit specific ports for a special export and making some sought-after materials available to move certain stories along without waiting for special offers.
Best Regards,
TbE
edited by The bewildered Everyman on 12/17/2017
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illuminati swag (Benthic)
Posts: 137
12/12/2017
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Prospects and Bargains really make the early game more survivable. I made 400 sovereigns or so in a single trip, which wasn't all trading, but a lot of it was. Right now, if anything, they feel a bit too profitable, but I'd need more time to figure out if that's actually the case. It's certainly a huge step up from the previous situation in terms of fun, and I do prefer it to Sea's trading system in a lot of ways.
Hold space feels rather tight - I ended up with 7 cargo full of bargains, meaning that I was running from port to port on 2 fuel and 1 supply and constantly having to do rations. That was mostly my fault, but I do think that raising the default hold space, maybe to 15 or so, would be nice. This could also potentially go alongside a small reduction in the profit from Prospects and Bargains, so each individual one wouldn't be as good but you could carry more cargo and fulfill more of them at a time. I'm also a bit confused about the Moloch, a sleek luxury liner, having more hold space than the explicit trading vessel. Maybe there will be better trading locomotives with even more space available at some point, but right now it's a bit weird.
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Nanako
Posts: 536
12/12/2017
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Feedback from me!
The first odd thing i notice, is that the bazaar seems to have two cheap sales, one with a quality requirement and one without. this looks wierd
https://i.imgur.com/AhC81co.png
Also this quality seems to have no tooltip
I think the bazaars in each port could do with some more flavour text, rather than simply being a generic menu. Maybe a little segment in lustrum about pushing past miners, and trying to hear over the hour harkers. This bazaar thing is a good opportunity to inject a little of the culture of each port into things, have some more narrative content there
I'm not entirely onboard with the "every small port exports something" idea. Specifically; Magdalenes, Carillon and Polmear & Plenty's Circus, are three ports that all run on a service economy. They produce no goods and really shouldn't be exporting anything, imo.
They're currently exporting souls, souls and bronzewood respectively, though i don't see much reason they would export these things. Maybe there's some spirifage going on at magdalenes?
Devils eat souls, i remember it being explicitly specified in sunless sea that "devils don't....export souls". The implication being that souls are something they import, and consume. Carillon shouldn't be selling souls. The circus? Not a tree in sight, where is it getting wood from.
I don't think there's anything wrong with having a few ports which don't export, it can just be one of their little quirks. Give those places more importing opportunities instead
Not to mention that all three of the above ports are simply duplicating their exports from other places which make much more sense
As to a few others;
Port Avon is exporting souls? I suppose that makes some sense, since they have those soul filled ruins. But i figured their main export would be cider, apples, seeds or saplings. The apple orchards are the first and foremost thing about it. Maybe they could have multiple consistent exports?
Port prosper exports unseasoned hours. This too, is odd. I get the impression from the storylets that its the main place for refining and processing unseasoned hours. Therefore they should be IMPORTING unseasoned hours and exporting....seasoned hours? We don't seem to have an item ingame yet for properly processed hours, maybe this is a temporary state of affairs until one is added?
Anyways thats thematic feedback. I'll post more about mechanics and balance as i experience it
edited by Nanako on 12/12/2017
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Sunless Skies needs engine and speed control mechanics. Have a look at my design proposal for implementing it
http://community.failbettergames.com/topic25687-a-design-for-engines.aspx
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Nanako
Posts: 536
12/12/2017
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Okay, balance and mechanical thoughts
I'm a little perplexed about the frequency of bargains. When i first heard about this system, i imagined bargains as an occasional thing we might find every 2-5 stops. But from what i'm seeing, theres a consistent two bargains at every noncentral port, which feels a bit much. While it is nice to see so much content, i fear i'm going to burn through it too quickly at this rate and it'll get repetitive
The profit margins on these bargains is a bit much too. I'm not really feeling a need to look for prospects, when i can sell the items from bargains for a good profit anyway
The removal of all the shops in new winchester is a bit disappointing. It was nice to have it as a place we could purchase almost anything. I'd like to see those return, but the prices jacked up a bit so they're not an efficient option for sourcing goods
Its not at all clear when the trade system will refresh, since as far as i can tell we have no way of checking the ingame date, nor reliable ways of advancing it except just sailing around. But i did see the prospects refresh just after i finished my third one. So i've completed one full cycle
This system does give us some reason to use the bank, at least, storing cheap stuff for later.
On the whole, i'm inclined to say the system is too easy right now. Bargains are too common, and too profitable. The long duration between them refreshing is odd, and i wouldn't mind seeing it made more granular (less options at a time, but refresh more frequently).
I've spent the past hour or two just trading, this system is engrossing enough to occupy the majority of time. i don't know if that's a good thing, it may be overshadowing other aspects. It certainly overshadows quests in terms of income
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Sunless Skies needs engine and speed control mechanics. Have a look at my design proposal for implementing it
http://community.failbettergames.com/topic25687-a-design-for-engines.aspx
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A Parliament of Hounds
Posts: 37
1/29/2018
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Leonora Rothwood wrote:
One thing I liked in Sunless Seas was the frequency of date-stamped messages -- they really helped give a sense of time passing! Of course a lot of those were "Fed the crew" alerts and the like which I think would quickly get annoying in the floating-text format, but even just little snippets of flavor text that show up every two or three in-game days could help add a sense of time passing and what life on a space locomotive is like immensely. I think I would be less frustrated every time I checked the Bazaar in New Winchester and found nothing if I knew in advance that nothing was likely to show up until after a certain date.
Nothing particular to add, just wanted to say I very much agree with this. More floating text in general would be nice.
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Rakaposhi
Posts: 8
2/1/2018
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One problem with Prospects and Bargains I can forsee is that players will likely stockpile bargains in the bank until the relevant prospect shows up. As time passes and your wealth grows the player is likely to accumulate enough stock to fulfill any prospect at will. It's certainly what I've done in my time in the Reach (with the odd sale of bargains to New Winchester at regular prices when I've needed sovereigns for a new ship or the like)
At that point they don't seem any different than the 'Major Traders' who have the regular trading routes locked down - they have a warehouse full of stock and deliver it when requested. Scouring the region for bargains isn't necessary as they've picked all this stuff up previously on their travels.
A more dynamic system perhaps would be time limited offers that only show up for an in game day or two at random ports. Can you deliver x number of item y to port z. The player then has interesting choices to make:
Do I want to go out of my way?
Can I fit the entire order in my hold? If not, what can I ditch?
Can I afford the terror costs of extending my journey?
How dangerous is that area of space?
Is this going to enhance the standing of the tacketies or stovepipes? Will I sacrifice my morals for sovs if so?
I'd love to see the introduction of dangerous areas for player to visit, and of course safer zones. At the moment and from what I recall of Sunless Sea you can pretty much sail anywhere with impunity (tho sneaking past Mt Nomad always felt pretty epic in the starting ship)
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Nanako
Posts: 536
12/12/2017
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John Moose wrote:
Nanako, I think that's when you've bought all they have. The goods available in a bargain are finite.
as benthic said.
this is happening on bargains i've not purchased anything from yet.
i'm thinking bargains should vanish when all the goods are bought anyway
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Sunless Skies needs engine and speed control mechanics. Have a look at my design proposal for implementing it
http://community.failbettergames.com/topic25687-a-design-for-engines.aspx
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Nanako
Posts: 536
12/12/2017
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One thing that's become suddenly noticeable is the placeholder art. Now that i'm dealing a lot with the bank - which only shows icons -, the excessive use of the placeholder streetlamp icon is becoming a little bothersome. This seems like a good time to move goods icons up in priority a bit. get some unique icons for crockery, hours, etc
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Sunless Skies needs engine and speed control mechanics. Have a look at my design proposal for implementing it
http://community.failbettergames.com/topic25687-a-design-for-engines.aspx
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Nanako
Posts: 536
12/12/2017
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there is quite a bit of repetition in the prospects, i suspect from a small content pool. Although, if possible, it'd be nice to have some selection logic in there to exclude prospects that were picked the last time around too.
I'm currently working on my ninth prospect, but i think ive only seen five unique ones. Twice in a row now, i've delivered the goods for a prospect, returned to new winchester and found the same order waiting for me again.
Seeds for lustrum, and hours for the nature reserve, are the ones i'm seeing most commonly repeated. i wonder if this is just coincidence
Some repetition in the bargains too, although its less noticeable since you don't focus on them as much.
On the whole, it seems the content pool isn't large enough for the current frequency of both. I'd suggest reducing the frequency of prospects and bargains (maybe increase the quantities of goods involved to compensate) and also make more of em!
I bet we community members could help write some content for bargains and prospects, are you guys accepting suggestions?
welp, ive really dominated this thread.
In closing: Prospects and opportunities are too common, the content pool for them is a bit too small, and making money through them is too easy. Its an amazingly fun feature, but it needs to be toned down a little, it overshadows the rest of the game atm
edited by Nanako on 12/13/2017
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Sunless Skies needs engine and speed control mechanics. Have a look at my design proposal for implementing it
http://community.failbettergames.com/topic25687-a-design-for-engines.aspx
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illuminati swag (Benthic)
Posts: 137
12/12/2017
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Absintheuse wrote:
illuminati swag (Benthic) wrote:
Hold space feels rather tight - I ended up with 7 cargo full of bargains, meaning that I was running from port to port on 2 fuel and 1 supply and constantly having to do rations.
Have you been making use of the Bank? Or is this just specifically on your trade missions?
That was specifically while on a trade mission. It was mostly my fault for trying to pick up lots of cargo to maximize profit, honestly.
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illuminati swag (Benthic)
Posts: 137
12/12/2017
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John Moose wrote:
Nanako, I think that's when you've bought all they have. The goods available in a bargain are finite.
I think the bug there is that bargains are showing up with no goods in them. I've had that happen as well.
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Absintheuse
Posts: 348
12/12/2017
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illuminati swag (Benthic) wrote:
Hold space feels rather tight - I ended up with 7 cargo full of bargains, meaning that I was running from port to port on 2 fuel and 1 supply and constantly having to do rations.
Have you been making use of the Bank? Or is this just specifically on your trade missions?
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Nanako
Posts: 536
12/18/2017
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Did you put an HTML table in a forum post?
That's pretty messed up, i can't delete it from a quote. You probably shouldnt do that :P
I agree that glass and munitions are important, they need specific export locations. Infact failbetter has mentioned (in the known issues page i think) that such things will get a consistent export location - in another star system.
Tea is not. Infact, i wrote a guide on how to exploit tea at port avon for infinite money http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1209534549&preview=true
Making tea not consistently purchaseable is one way of limiting the exploit. Not the way i would have gone personally, but it sort of works. You can do things in port avon by trading gossip, or just use whatever tea you happen to pickup from bargains - using tea there is still pretty profitable, moreso than directly selling it at market
L&S certainly are a manufacturer of various ship parts, but they're also an agricultural and scientific concern. The nature reserve is not a place to buy munitions. I suspect they'll have a factory near albion for that.
FWIW, albion content has been strongly hinted at for a long time, and i'd expect it in early 2018 (dont quote me on that though)
Yes magdalenes has lots of stained glass windows, that doesn't mean they should export it. They're an importer and consumer of stained glass. They don't produce anything, Economically, you export things that you produce in order to make a profit
Does carillon have any connection to chorister hives? I missed that, please tell more
Also, titania exporting literature is an excellent idea
Carillon exporting souls though, is not. Devils import and eat souls, and they never seem to have enough. I'm pretty against carillon selling souls, if anything that should be the place YOU go to sell souls to the devils
The circus, much like magdalenes, doesnt really produce any goods so i find it odd that it exports anything. But the exporting of bronzewood is explained in the shop - a local lumber company has an outlet there. Its kinda flimsy, but i guess there are some trees around
I agree with the overall concept of what you're thinking, the current selection of exports are somewhat arbitrary. But personally i'd like to not see places selling things they should be importing, and instead sell things that they actually produce locally (and don't consume)
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Sunless Skies needs engine and speed control mechanics. Have a look at my design proposal for implementing it
http://community.failbettergames.com/topic25687-a-design-for-engines.aspx
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The bewildered Everyman
Posts: 3
12/18/2017
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Hi Nanako,
I remember seeing you active around, well, every platform this game is discussed. I thought at first you were a community manager of some kind.
As I said, my suggestion is more of an idea for the time being (as I do not think that it is too much work to code what a shop sells) and switch it back later. More like a band-aid while they use the reach as an testing ground (also, it makes it easier to test certain ports). i will write more on the general ideas for the Economic system later.
In regards to the HTML-Table, you can delete it when you switch into the "source"-modus at the option to the right of the toolbar and just delete the code.
I am well aware of the Tea->Welcome->Vision->Sov->Tea abuse (having found it independently and used it for easier testing of some of the later content in some ports). But I think the main problem here is the repeatability and consistency of the Event in Port Avon that generates the Visions from Transfers. Putting it on a Date-Limit would likely end the problem.
For the rest, it's not like I have gone and said: "Which Export would be ideal for a given port?" but more the other way around of "I need this export somewhere, so what would be the port that is closest to the idea of the good". So it's naturally a bit forced.
Only thing I want to mention is the "Certain ports produce things the should import"-thing. I see it a bit different, in that the industry for a certain good will probably be near their biggest consumers.
So if you have Magdalenes with it's constant need for stained glass (I mean, you want to invest in additional rooms and have to maintain a full building with X windows and sometimes mentally ill patients...), it is just a logical step that a Glas manufacturer would be there. And when the demand in the local port is not as high as his production capacity, he will sell his surplus to skyfarers who dock. I mean that's literally a logical place to build a glas manufacture, so it's kind alike two lines of lore or something.
In regards to exporting souls, you could say that you sell a certain amount of your highest refinement to then use the money to buy more unrefined souls (If the refinement-process is cheaper to you than the prive differential between unrefined and refined souls you will get more souls in the end, eh?). Also, I vaguely remember that the Devils yous Bees in Punishments in Carillon. It seemed sensible, as the bees eat Ideas, as far as I know.
Best regards,
TbE
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Leonora Rothwood
Posts: 17
1/28/2018
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For me, Prospects feel too random and not frequent enough. The first time I played after they were released I got four at once, which was nice -- and then I died and my next captain has been hardly seeing any Prospects at all. Maybe it has to do with in-game time, but with no good way to keep track of time it's frustrating.
One thing I liked in Sunless Seas was the frequency of date-stamped messages -- they really helped give a sense of time passing! Of course a lot of those were "Fed the crew" alerts and the like which I think would quickly get annoying in the floating-text format, but even just little snippets of flavor text that show up every two or three in-game days could help add a sense of time passing and what life on a space locomotive is like immensely. I think I would be less frustrated every time I checked the Bazaar in New Winchester and found nothing if I knew in advance that nothing was likely to show up until after a certain date.
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Leonora Rothwood, the Ink-Stained Wanderer
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lady ciel
Posts: 2548
12/15/2017
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I'm still not sure about the new system. Not having a reliable source for some items that are needed in quests is annoying, specifically stained glass [spoiler] which is needed for the Albert Clock; Melusine in Lustrum and repairs in Titania [/spoiler] should be available to buy at a shop somewhere.
I've got several things in my bank and hope to find a prospect that uses them at some point.
Positives - it was fairly easy to get the money to buy the canning equipment and a train with more hold space.
It actually looks like it might be possible to complete the wealth ending before Prospects and Bargains it seemed impossible.
edited by reveurciel on 12/15/2017
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ciel
Sorry RL means I am not a very active player at the moment. No social actions unless you are prepared to wait and definitely no sparring or other mult-action things.
No Calling Cards or boxed cats please. Will take dupes on the affluent photographers. Other social invitations welcome. Parabolan Kittens usually available, send me an in-game social action saying you want one and I will get one to you as soon as possible.
storynexus name - reveurciel
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