FailbetterFuzz
Administrator
Posts: 232
9/27/2017
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Feedback Focus: Economy, General Progression and World Shape
Greetings Skyfarers,
Welcome to the second focused feedback thread for Sunless Skies. The Terror thread is still open and will remain so for the foreseeable future, so if you’ve not yet told us your thoughts on Terror, go here.
This second round of focused feedback is about the Economy, General Progression and the World Shape.
Why it is the way it is
- The world randomness is currently turned all the way up to 11. We wanted to experiment with that to see how it worked for people. We're going to calm that down now.
- Enemies can spawn in a diverse range of locations, but that makes it quite hard to find them.
- We haven't yet implemented Discoveries, which are a source of new items, stories and tradeable goods.
- The trading system isn't in place yet, so one major avenue of making money isn't available.
- There are some balance issues with some of the quest rewards/item costs.
- We are yet to introduce some of the equipment that will make trading/carrying more goods possible.
- A fundamental difference between Sunless Skies and Sunless Sea is that hold space is something you need to earn and work towards.
What we've heard
- Hold space feels small. That's good! It should feel that way at the beginning. You don't need to worry though, new ships and new equipment will help with this.
- People find combat fun (if a little tricky!), but it's hard to find enemies.
- It's hard to make money.
- Repairing your ship is expensive.
- Trading is no fun.
What we're looking to do
- We're going to reduce the randomness of the generated world, so you'll be able to more reliably find stuff to interact with.
- We're adding bank storage. This will allow you to store goods at New Winchester for later, so you don't need to carry it around in your hold while you sail around, leaving room for trade goods.
- We'll be introducing Discoveries. These will be objects you can interact with to get goods and perks. You might need to fight your way to them, but they'll provide an opportunity to make some more money.
- We're adding a new trading system, which will involve people offering you goods at bargain prices you can resell, or indicating the location of a buyer who will pay well over the odds for particular goods. This will be the main method by which traders can turn a profit.
- We'll be upping the number of potential enemies cruising around the High Wilderness. This should mean you can reliably find, fight, and loot them.
- Expect to see more equipment in the game that will help you enhance your ship in ways that suit your play style. Like a lot of hold space so you can trade? Get some additional cargo space. Want to go mining? Equip cutting equipment to break open rocks. Just want to blow stuff up? Add some additional plating and a big, big gun.
- We'll be looking at the rewards on quests, the price of goods, and the cost of repairing your ship.
What we'd like to know
- What's been the most exciting haul you've got from a fallen enemy?
- If you're avoiding combat at the moment, what's giving you reservations?
- What's the most exciting reward you've received from completing a story?
- What's the least exciting reward you've received from completing a story?
- What ship equipment are you currently using?
edited by FailbetterFuzz on 9/27/2017
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Anchovies
Posts: 421
9/27/2017
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The linchpins of the current game economy are Company House, Lumiere's shop, and Port Avon. Company House converts reports to fuel, supplies, cash, and windward favors to salon-stewed gossip. Port Avon converts gossip to tales of terror, sky-stories, savage secrets, and visions of the heavens. Lumiere's shop converts visions of the heavens to cash, and transporting settlers converts sky-stories to cash.
Some general thoughts:
1. A settler dying en route should give an uncanny specimen, a tale of terror, and a sky-story, rather than a condemned experiment. As it is, settlers are worth more delivered dead to Lumiere's than alive to their destination.
2. Tales of terror currently have no uses. Perhaps they could be traded at the Nature Reserve, via talking to other captains there?
3. Visions of the heavens should probably sell for 25sv, not 50. As it is there's a bit too much profit to be made by purchasing tea at 60sv in Winch and trading each caddy at Port Avon for 250sv worth of visions.
FailbetterFuzz wrote:
We're adding bank storage. This will allow you to store goods at New Winchester for later, so you don't need to carry it around in your hold while you sail around, leaving room for trade goods. This is great! However, New Winchester is not the place where I have most felt the need for item storage. That would be Lustrum and Traitor's Wood. As outer ports, they're distant enough that I've never had 2 units of supplies to spare. This is, in part, because I've got 2 crates of munitions taking up space in my hold. Do those toffs at Summerset Camp not want their lovely view of the trees obstructed by big ugly boxes full of vital supplies? The Lustrum expedition is similarly troublesome, especially since Lustrum ended up in the middle of effing nowhere for my current captain.
A related thing: at present, a captain can leave a port with an overfull hold, at which point they are immediately forced to jettison extra cargo which could instead have been sold or used at the port. A better approach would be to simply prevent the captain from departing with an overfull hold. I lost three crates of hours when my claim at Lustrum ran dry, when I could have gotten at least something for them by trading with Mr Pennies.
Tangent: I left five crew at Lustrum, and returned to 2 crates. I left five more, and returned to 2 crates. I left another five, and a team of 15 still returned 2 crates. Was a team of five already enough to maximize the yield from my particular claim? Some sort of indication would be helpful. Perhaps when hours are collected from the claim, the story text could mention whether the team could use more crew? That would reward starting with a large team because hours can only be collected a few times, while allowing players to know when they're adding extraneous crew. This would be appreciated not only by me but also by the dozen crew who I've abandoned at Lustrum. I do quite like that there's apparently a chance for some of them to stay and keep prospecting - it very much enhances the atmosphere of the place - but I don't know if all of those I left there have accepted their lot because I don't go to Lustrum anymore.
FailbetterFuzz wrote:
Want to go mining? Equip cutting equipment to break open rocks. WE ASTEROIDS NOW
PEW PEW PEW PEW PEW
Related: close-quarters combat weapons? I think it would be rad as hell to trick out my locomotive with rotary saws, flamethrowers, or just a big metal spike and a "RAMMING SPEED!" button. I suppose weapons and combat should be its own thread, though.
FailbetterFuzz wrote:
What's been the most exciting haul you've got from a fallen enemy? Salon-stewed gossip from marauders is very nice because of how flexibly gossip can be used at Port Avon. Terror reduction plus sky-stories/savage secrets/tales of terror, or visions of the heavens to make a quick sov at Lumiere's.
After that, my next favorite loot to find is fuel or supplies. There's been one occasion where I got 1 fuel and a tale of terror because there was some awful monster in the other locomotive's engine, and that was a fun story encounter.
I usually don't go for the hull repair. Sometimes the 8 hull from tacketies is useful, but only 4 hull from marauders is pitiful.
FailbetterFuzz wrote:
What's the most exciting reward you've received from completing a story? That has to be 800sv from finishing Port Prosper's clock tower. The fat injection of cash was enough to set me up with expanded hold and extra hull, and enough left over to keep me going until I unlocked Lumiere's shop. Didn't have any money troubles for the duration of the run.
Until that magician robbed me blind
(╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻)
I was also quite pleased with myself when I got 275sv in cold hard cash from turning in 11 mangled nameplates.
Aside: I like how tackety and windward nameplates are mangled and scorched respectively. Reminds me of Striped Delights and Silver Horseheads at Port Carnelian.
Another memorable reward was the huge pile of experience which could be earned at Carillon, although doing everything there in one trip may not have been the best for my sanity.
Aside: the randomized text at Carillon is SO GOOD, oh my gosh. Sometimes they're funny, sometimes they're frightening, and sometimes the pieces fit together very well. A man with a habit for eating candied fire ants was required to numb their mouth and nose whenever they ate, which would probably help break a candied-fire-ant habit.
FailbetterFuzz wrote:
What's the least exciting reward you've received from completing a story? Ten - ten - sovereigns from completing the intro task at Mag's. I suppose it is a zero-cost click-through task, but ten sovs still feels a bit like a slap in the face. I think 25, which is at least enough to buy a unit of fuel, would be better. Or perhaps 1 fuel and 1 supplies.
Another disappointment is that I don't recall earning any experience for completing the Hybras storyline (I chose to protect myself and not cause any destruction).
FailbetterFuzz wrote:
What ship equipment are you currently using? Double Jerusalems, baby! I've found that a few high-damage shells are more reliable than the brassraven's mad spray of bullets. Outside of weapons there's just one choice for each equip slot, and I've got all of them.
edited by Anchovies on 9/27/2017
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Perhaps our role on this planet is not to worship God — but to create Him.
—Sir Arthur C Clarke
Lionel Anchovies. Character on indefinite hiatus.
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Lallinka
Posts: 138
9/27/2017
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I would just like to say that the randomness is one of the aspects I enjoyed very much. It makes every play-through different, and the "circles" are already giving the world some sort of order of which ports will be in which distance and not having everything in the same place is quite exciting and forces you to explore! You already have bats to guide you...
After you've adjusted the reward system a bit, I found myself pretty capable of earning enough sovereigns to survive, even if it sometimes means running circles around the nearest 2-3 ports dozen of times to earn enough to buy supplies for a longer journey. It's not ideal, but it's manageable.
- What's been the most exciting haul you've got from a fallen enemy?
Honestly, I love that killing Cantaperi's is a part of a quest, or even two. I do hope there will be more variety of enemies and therefore more possibilities to kill them for quests.
Other than that, getting a free fuel or supply is always nice and usually very useful.
- If you're avoiding combat at the moment, what's giving you reservations?
I've been slowing warming up to the idea of fighting, but in the beginning I would usually be killed first. And even now, I'm only killing enemies I come across in a position that seems killable. (I LOVE those trapped locomotives that can't even fight back). If the ship is going the opposite way or is on the edge of my view, I can't ever catch up, so I don't even bother. Also the manoeuvring is still very difficult to master for me and they do end up hurting me quite a lot before I can kill them, unless I'm lucky.
What was said about forfeiting opportunities to fight due to terror or haul management also applies to me.
- What's the most exciting reward you've received from completing a story?
The huge amount of money for the Clock tower was amazing, I'm not gonna lie. I also appreciate rewards from things like Titania or Claim in Lustrum, that require you to give them some time before you can reap them.
- What's the least exciting reward you've received from completing a story?
I believe you've raised the reward in Magdalene's from 10 (which was a slap in the face) to 200, that helped immensely. I was quite underwhelmed when I succeeded in finding the Bird in the natural reserve and all I got was a dream quality that never went anywhere, not even when I returned after some time.
But I'm for example not even really started with Traitor's wood, so we'll see.
I WAS excited when I repaired the whole of the circus, then I was very much disappointed when I couldn't watch the good version of the show (known issue, I know) and then I lost all interest in doing Circus quests when I realised it would always just fall apart again. It's a good way to earn money when you're bored, I guess.
- What ship equipment are you currently using?
Default guns as I didn't find a need to upgrade them, but I've got the cabins for the crew, the wardrobe for the hull (still not enough!) and the shield for defence. I...wasn't very careful with spending my money, but so far it's been working out for me.
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I am very much looking forward to any and all updates you have in store for us. Especially, but not limited to, those patches that will fix some known issues 
Hope this has been what you're looking for!
-Lallinka
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Lallinka is accepting any social interactions as soon as my actions allow it. No Loitering and no Photographer, please. Available for interviews about Nemesis and a Midnighter for Orphanages.
Ragish is accepting everything, including Loitering and Photographer. Available for interviews about Heart's Desire and a Crooked-cross for Salons.
Pienkava is freshly out of prison and will need charity to survive in the harsh streets of London. Have pity, she is only fifteen.
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ZeroMGA
Posts: 7
9/27/2017
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A lot of my issues with the economy sound like they will be rectified in later patches.
Lack of trade options is a critical one, once in place that will give players reliable income - especially if they are futzing back and forth between ports for other stories. I'd like to see some kind of story/port mechanic where better trade deals can be discovered. It could be as simple as a rumor, "I heard Titania is holding a big to do and is running low on tea." With that same mechanic you could have a timer that reduces the bonus on the trade the longer you take to do it. That way a player knows they either drop other things to do it for maximum gain, or potentially risk lower gains or no gains at all by trying to squeeze it into their other travels.
I'd like to see that over a more reliable "Port A has 'x' and Port B always needs 'x' for a flat rate." Maybe each port should have a reliable,
but modest, trade route but everything else is rumors you have to actively seek.
A bank would be fantastic, but like another person said one at other major ports would be appreciated. Primary bank in New Winchester, smaller ones in Port Avon and Titania perhaps. Or maybe you can lease bank space at those ports, so you can have that benefit but at a cost.
I can't wait to see the Reach have more ships in the sky. Not just for the combat, which I enjoy, but also for the ambience of knowing there are truly other travellers out there. I do truly enjoy the combat out there. Though every now and then I run into a situation where they engage briefly, then turn tail and somehow rush away far faster than my own locomotive, at speeds they definitely didn't display before.
- Best haul has been a combination of sovereigns and an artifact, I can't remember which one.
- Worst haul was 5 sovereigns.
- Most exciting reward was the early boost for the Port Prosper clock. That big infusion of money made exploring and enjoying content much easier.
- Like another said the sub-standard amount of SV received for the first magician quest. Not enough to even buy a bit o' fuel.
- My ship currently runs extra cargo hold space and double Jerusalem's
edited by ZeroMGA on 9/27/2017
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Jimmius
Posts: 31
9/27/2017
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- What's been the most exciting haul you've got from a fallen enemy?
I like the mangled name plate gathering for the filthy imperialists, because it feels like I actually have a stake in the Winchester War. If only I could work for the Tacketies... 
- If you're avoiding combat at the moment, what's giving you reservations?
I'm not avoiding it, so much as it's avoiding me! I'd love to stumble across groups of enemies, perhaps 3-4 ships dogfighting, or a cluster of the pink space fish. Or a Pirate Base Discovery guarded by some lurking Marauders.
- What's the most exciting reward you've received from completing a story?
As I've said before, I loved being able to mine hours from MoM (Still waiting on being able to give them nice coats or put some health and safety regulations in place! :P)
- What's the least exciting reward you've received from completing a story?
Doing the quest for the magdelenes guy was a bit dissapointing, the story reward was "he could've been anyone I guess" and you get 15 gold or something. I'd like a bit more to follow with him, finding out I had no identity, or essentially lost it due to working as many people for years would freak me out a bit more than just giving a weary sigh and then never bringing it up again.
- What ship equipment are you currently using?
Double Jerusalems. Nothing quite feels as good as obliterating a Marauder before it even knows it's under attack. The noise they make is so satisfying too, heh.
edited by Jimmius on 9/27/2017
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FailbetterFuzz
Administrator
Posts: 232
10/11/2017
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lady ciel wrote:
But you can! Go speak to Sweet Jane in Lustrum
But the locomotives that you can get those nameplates from aren't in the game yet
At least I have never come across one. Just Tackety Scouts and Reach Marauders
Oh what a silly Fuzz! My apologies you are correct, there are no London aligned agents currently in game.
I've been using our debug tools to cheat and give myself ALL the qualities you see, so forgot about this. I'll chase up when we expect these beasties to go in so Jimmius can start sabotaging the balance of power in Reach!
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Jimmius
Posts: 31
10/11/2017
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muahaha! Liberty Equality Eternity! We will be free of London's grip!
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Lmaoboat
Posts: 31
10/30/2017
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I'd just like to say this on the topic of equipment: A large variety of unique and interesting equipment is one of the best ways to increase replayability and encourage exploration. Most of the equipment and ship upgrades in Fallen London was pretty linear, and in the case of engines and glim lamps, nearly pointless. In addition a larger variety of mundane weapons and engines, I think there's a lot of potential in weirdness of the Wilderness to equip your ship with all sort of strange artifacts/arcane glyphs/symbiotic Wilderness beasts.
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FailbetterFuzz
Administrator
Posts: 232
11/7/2017
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Jimmius wrote:
I'd love to see how mining works in game. Space mining that is, with cutting tools and the like. I've alread done some regular (if you can consider mining the concept of time "regular") mining. It seems that the world "exists" more without player interaction than Sunless Seas, so there's more room for the player to do their own thing (like go space mining) whilst the Winchester War rages on around them.
I shall spoil nothing, all will be eventually be revealed
Jimmius wrote:
I'm confused as to how armour works at the moment. It adds hull right? That's actually a bit of a liability to be honest, considering how expensive hull is to repair. If armour reduced incoming damage by a bit, I think it might be more worth considering, but 250 gold up front and then increased upkeep on the ship seems a little bit much of an ask.
edited by Jimmius on 10/28/2017
That's right, it adds Hull rather than reducing incoming damage. I doubt we'll change this feature, however in light of what we've heard people say, we are reducing the cost of hull repairs in a future patch.
Lmaoboat wrote:
In addition a larger variety of mundane weapons and engines, I think there's a lot of potential in weirdness of the Wilderness to equip your ship with all sort of strange artifacts/arcane glyphs/symbiotic Wilderness beasts.
A wider range of weapons and equipment is definitely our intention. Watch this space.
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