vulchor
Posts: 23
8/31/2017
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Just gotta admit that I stumble over the words in the text like "b_ _ _ _ ration", as I'm an idiot American who's not used these colloquialisms. I'm also not a personal fan of censorship, regardless, however I can see a side that would like this and a reason that the devs do it this way. I'm curious to know what you all think about this? I'd love an option to turn dialog censorship off, that way to each his own.
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Chris Gardiner
Administrator
Posts: 539
8/31/2017
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Thought people might be interested in a dev perspective on this: the motive here isn't censorship, it's worldbuilding. I mean, this is a game where you can devour the cabin boy; we're hardly going to be sent to our swooning-couches by the word 'bloody'. Why, many of the content team pride ourselves on our evocative swearing and are firmly of the opinion that swearing is both big and clever.
Dashing out the middle of swear-words was an occasional Victorian habit, and is a nice, low-effort way to establish our period and some of its (often hypocritical) habits.
Anchovies wrote:
It's a strange choice of curse for a world which has up to this point been very queer-friendly.
Yes, I take your and Anchovies' point, here. It's also obviously a word that, when censored, turns out to be particularly mystifying to non-Brits. That sort of thing can easily jolt you out of the moment.
For an insight into our process: in cases like this, where a particular word or phrase distrupts the immersion of a notable subset of players, we like to revisit it, work out what it was meant to be doing, and see if it can be rephrased into something more effective. Here, I was trying to establish something about the Veteran's character, so I've now revised it to a line that does a better job of this. The change should appear in a future update.
edited by babelfishwars on 8/31/2017
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Chris Gardiner
Administrator
Posts: 539
8/31/2017
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Yes, we have had dedicated people combing, collating and sorting player feedback (from a wide variety of channels) all day.
The main reason I responded to this particular thread was the censorship concern. I've seen it elsewhere and it always surprises me. It's something I could answer straight away, and doing so means our community will now be answer other queries about it. And when our community starts doing that, it saves us dev time.
edited by babelfishwars on 8/31/2017
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Diptych
Administrator
Posts: 3493
8/31/2017
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If a game contains swearing, cursing, or the speaking of terrible oaths, I immediately delete it from my computer hard drive. Such vile terms must never be spoken or put to paper.
Okay, but seriously. S'Skies adopts exactly the same practice as Fallen London - maintaining the conceit that it's all Victorian texts by having the invisible author self-censor the cussing. I'm surprised anyone has any issue with it. Just assume it's always "bloody" or "bugger" and you'll be fine.
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Sir Frederick, the Libertarian Esotericist. Lord Hubris, the Bloody Baron.
Juniper Brown, the Ill-Fated Orphan. Esther Ellis-Hall, the Fashionable Fabian.
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Teaspoon
Posts: 866
8/31/2017
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Failbetter has a careful path to tread between what makes a good game, what sounds Victorian (or neo-Victorian), and what aids the worldbuilding and the very particular narrative voice of their canon.
Just having random uncensored swearing in the text wouldn't aid the latter two goals, and I don't see how it would help with the first one.
update: As regards the second post in this thread, if you look up Victorian writers you'll find that the practice of referring to "Lord _____", etc. was a fairly common storytelling technique. Americans did it as well; several of Poe's stories, for instance.
edited by Teaspoon on 8/31/2017
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Truth lies at the bottom of a well.
https://www.fallenlondon.com/profile/Alt%20Ern
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illuminati swag (Benthic)
Posts: 137
8/31/2017
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It was a common practice in works from the time period. It's not a matter of FBG having a problem with swearing, it's a stylistic quirk that adds atmosphere for the time period.
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Chris Gardiner
Administrator
Posts: 539
8/31/2017
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gronostaj wrote:
I can't help but question your priorities. Of all the complaints about the early access version here on forums, some of them rather serious in terms of how they affect gameplay, this is the one that gets a personal insight and promise of the issue being adressed from a dev? A slightly exotic (and utterly irrelevant in the larger scope of things) profanity?
I'm a writer, not a programmer or artist, with easy access to our content system and an understanding of this particular content which took 10 seconds to fix. So this hasn't affected our other work at all.
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Anchovies
Posts: 421
8/31/2017
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Nanako wrote:
the player who wants to see things as they are. You do not want to see things "as they are", because "as they are" is with the harsher curses blanked out. Failbetter isn't modifying an existing text; they're making a personal decision about their own creative work. There was never a "bugger" to be censored, because it was "b____r" from the very start. What you want to see is things which you, personally, think that Failbetter should be presenting.
The intentional avoidance of explicit details is something which I appreciate about Failbetter's work. Gratuitous and detailed profanity, violence, and sex are so common in modern media - especially in gaming - that not needing to go out of my way to avoid overly explicit content is a pleasant breath of fresh air. I am no more interested in the lurid details of a zailor's choice of profanity than I am in the lurid details of getting freaky with the Prudent Magician, and I think that Failbetter's work is enhanced by the intentional omission of such things.
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Perhaps our role on this planet is not to worship God — but to create Him.
—Sir Arthur C Clarke
Lionel Anchovies. Character on indefinite hiatus.
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gronostaj
Posts: 403
8/31/2017
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Nanako wrote:
fill in the missing letters in "b_ _ _ _ ration"
almost like a crossword puzzle. is it, perhaps, "buggeration"?
edit; ah, b---ration. seems suinicide was faster.
edited by gronostaj on 8/31/2017
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Gronostaj (pl. Ermine), a decadent duellist of mysterious and indistinct gender. Seeker. Willing to die- but not of boredom. Open to all social actions, including the harmful ones.
Soft-Spoken Surgeon, a doctor who owes an onerous debt. Professor of medicine at the University by day, at criminal employ by night. Open to all non-harmful social actions.
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Atrocity Dancer
Posts: 13
8/31/2017
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Agreeing with the post above. Why do you need the censorship removal, anyway, if it's already obvious that the character's swearing?
In Fallen London, Cheery Man's basically a prime example of that "grizzled, scarred, hairy criminal man". He uses very strong swears, they are censored and no value is lost. It's still obvious that he is swearing, and that the censorship is purely a stylistic choice of the writers.
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Anchovies
Posts: 421
8/31/2017
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This may be the only thing on the forums which has gotten a developer response so far, but that doesn't mean it's the only thing they're aware of. Early Access has only been open for a single day so far. It's best for everyone if the Failbetter team gives consistent and reliable information, which means taking the time to settle on a definite answer before publically addressing a concern. Some decisions take longer than others. I for one am glad to see that the developers are already listening to what we have to say. Thank you, Chris Gardiner! And thank you, Failbetter Games!
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Perhaps our role on this planet is not to worship God — but to create Him.
—Sir Arthur C Clarke
Lionel Anchovies. Character on indefinite hiatus.
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suinicide
Posts: 2409
8/31/2017
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Buggeration.
N_n_k_: That is a completely different problem than the censoring of swears.
edited by suinicide on 8/31/2017
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http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/profile/sunnytime
A gentleman seeking the liberation of knowledge, with a penchant for violence.
RIP suinicide, stuck in a well. Still has it under control.
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Morfos
Posts: 6
8/31/2017
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In the old newspaper comics in the US, swearing was done with symbols, such as stars, exclamation points, skulls, daggers, etc. It wasn't because I was just a kid that I had no idea what those symbols were supposed to mean. It was generic swearing. I note that it's not player censorship that's happening, or even content censorship per se...it's the content we're being provided, in the form the provider believes is entertaining. (The "Lord ____" thing was in Fallen London, I believe, describing someone who was so indebted he had to give up his name.)
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absimiliard
Posts: 759
8/31/2017
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Chris Gardiner wrote:
.... Here, I was trying to establish something about the Veteran's character, so I've now revised it to a line that does a better job of this. The change should appear in a future update.
edited by babelfishwars on 8/31/2017
And this kind of attitude is just one reason we love FBG.
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"Because, Parabola!" -- the Curious Captain
Eating nightmares from friends -- and I'm easy to befriend.
Absimiliard: the Black Rose of Wolfstack Docks
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Chewi
Posts: 2
8/31/2017
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I personally feel that this is ultimately a non-issue in regards to censorship (the concerns of people who are unaware of the actual word is reasonable though).
The act of self-censorship was prolific in the Victorian era, and plays an important theme in Fallen London. This is a setting where an entire branch of the government is dedicated towards public decency and the censorship of material that threatens to cause trouble in society.
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gronostaj
Posts: 403
8/31/2017
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Chris Gardiner wrote:
I'm a writer, not a programmer or artist, with easy access to our content system and an understanding of this particular content which took 10 seconds to fix. So this hasn't affected our other work at all.
that's fair, I've been labouring under an incorrect assumption that you're representing the whole dev team rather than only the writerly part, so that it came off to me as failbetter braiding the mane while the entire horse is dying. I'm glad it is not so, and will exercise patience waiting for the other issues to be adressed in their due time
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Gronostaj (pl. Ermine), a decadent duellist of mysterious and indistinct gender. Seeker. Willing to die- but not of boredom. Open to all social actions, including the harmful ones.
Soft-Spoken Surgeon, a doctor who owes an onerous debt. Professor of medicine at the University by day, at criminal employ by night. Open to all non-harmful social actions.
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Ragnar Degenhand
Posts: 197
8/31/2017
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The mention of PTerry is especially apt. I believe he coined the term emb___ ation. Or was it emb___ ance?
edited by Ragnar Degenhand on 8/31/2017
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https://www.fallenlondon.com/profile/Ragnar%20Degenhand
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vulchor
Posts: 23
8/31/2017
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Thank you all very kindly for your thoughtful feedback. I love it when disagreements can be engaged and opinions reformed through education. I was not aware of that habit in that era's writing, now I am. Thanks much to Chris Gardiner for addressing it, and I have tons of confidence in FBG to make an outstanding sequel to S'Seas. I had the intention of playing for about half an hour last night, just get a feel for the game, and writing had me hooked for 9 hours! So you guys are definitely on the right track.
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Anchovies
Posts: 421
8/31/2017
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vulchor wrote:
Unfortunately, I don't possess the ability that Anchovies has to see it as just "b_ _ _ _ration" I see all! I know all!
You do raise a good point here. Making up a new word (even if it is based on an existing word) and then blanking it out could cause enough confusion to disrupt the flow of the game and story. I would've taken quite a bit longer than I did to puzzle out "b____ration" if I hadn't encountered a "b____r" very shortly beforehand.
Speaking of which, seeing that word used as a curse/insult after having grown accustomed to the game-world's generally accepting view of gender and sexuality is still bothering me hours after the fact. I really do hope it gets changed. Until then, I'll pretend that everyone's saying "butter", because that gives me a nice chuckle.
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Perhaps our role on this planet is not to worship God — but to create Him.
—Sir Arthur C Clarke
Lionel Anchovies. Character on indefinite hiatus.
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Nanako
Posts: 536
8/31/2017
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Atrocity Dancer wrote:
Agreeing with the post above. Why do you need the censorship removal, anyway, if it's already obvious that the character's swearing?
Why do you need censorship, if it's already obvious that the character's swearing?
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Sunless Skies needs engine and speed control mechanics. Have a look at my design proposal for implementing it
http://community.failbettergames.com/topic25687-a-design-for-engines.aspx
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