Televangelist
Posts: 109
8/27/2017
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Very few choices in the game feel as starkly, annoyingly divided as this one -- between what's "optimal" for numerous elements of top-level gameplay (pleasure yacht) and what's just plain awesome (zubmarine). In the past you've explicitly stated that you don't want the Zub to be +2 Bizarre because Bizarre and Dreaded are supposed to be harder to come by than Respectable... well, in that case, let us buy a Yacht too so this can be a fun decision instead of a needlessly painful one.
(Though FWIW, I think even if we take it as understood that Bizarre is supposed to be harder to attain than Respectable, the fact that a Zub takes so much longer to get than a Yacht could still justify +2 Bizarre.)
edited by Televangelist on 8/27/2017
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Kaijyuu
Posts: 1047
8/27/2017
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I dunno about you but I'll take 1 BDR over better zee travel any day. Not everyone cares about optimizing money but everyone does care about minimizing tedium; zee voyages are rarely bothersome and are just mild action sinks, whereas notability grinding is a monumental and painful task for which any respite is welcome.
As for the Zub... on one hand, sometimes different things are different. On the other hand, I know if my RP favored the Zub I'd probably still pick the Yacht and feel bummed about it. No one likes it when the game makes them feel bummed. So it'd be nice if it got another point of Bizarre, though not wholly unexpected if nothing changes.
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Sara Hysaro
Moderator
Posts: 4514
8/27/2017
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Isn't it explicitly stated that the Masters of the Bazaar only allow you to have one ship?
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Optimatum
Posts: 3666
8/27/2017
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The yacht isn't actually strictly optimal - sure, it has one more BDR, but the zub is better at zee travel. (Unfortunately, the only clearly optimal ship is The Heart.)
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Televangelist
Posts: 109
8/27/2017
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Sara Hysaro wrote:
Isn't it explicitly stated that the Masters of the Bazaar only allow you to have one ship?
Cool, then let me spend some of my Connected: The Masters to have an exception made.
dov wrote:
You might as well say that by choosing a spouse we need to choose between either optimal BDR (Rubbery Consort) or a bonus to a main stat (all others). So should FBG let people also marry the Rubbery in addition to their other spouse? (I would hope it's obvious the answer is "no").
Yes, having optimal BDR tied to something that feels as personal as your character's specific choice of spouse is *also* an extremely poor design decision. And kinda inexplicable that the game handles it so poorly, considering one of the major themes of the game is about passion and affairs of the heart.
If it's about compelling people to spend the 100 fate, offer a way to make the other spouses +3 BDR that also costs 100 fate.
Bottom line -- in a game so heavily focused on flavor and role and story, don't make players screw themselves out of a decent high-level play experience (+3 BDR is absolutely massive in the endgame) to choose something as personal as a spouse or vehicle in a way that actually fits with the player's vision.
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Televangelist
Posts: 109
8/28/2017
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PSGarak wrote:
If you care about BDR, get a Yacht. If not having a zub makes you sad, then get a zub.
You're missing the point entirely. A lot of us care about BDR, because of its massive effects in the endgame, and *also* care about having a zub.
The choice between the two isn't legitimate because it's not a choice between two gameplay goals, nor is it a choice between two story goals -- it's a failed hybrid of the two, a choice between gameplay and story.
The point isn't to have zero gameplay differences -- obviously, their opportunity cards are different when you're at zee and nobody is complaining about that. The point is the massive scale of the difference in numerous areas of the endgame that have nothing to do with being at zee.
edited by Televangelist on 8/28/2017
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Teaspoon
Posts: 866
8/28/2017
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That's a point. You can hardly go around telling people you own a zub, can you?
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Optimatum
Posts: 3666
8/28/2017
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Televangelist wrote:
You're missing the point entirely. A lot of us care about BDR, because of its massive effects in the endgame, and *also* care about having a zub.
Anchovies wrote:
Here's another way to look at it: if your character is trying to make themselves known and influential, then switching from a zubmarine to a pleasure-yacht would be a completely reasonable RP choice.
How about a compromise: the zub gets upgraded to be +2 BDR but you have to deal with a menace card for owning one. Gotta be wary of Robert Harris ;D
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Scienceandponies
Posts: 247
8/28/2017
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Optimatum wrote:
Televangelist wrote:
You're missing the point entirely. A lot of us care about BDR, because of its massive effects in the endgame, and *also* care about having a zub.
Anchovies wrote:
Here's another way to look at it: if your character is trying to make themselves known and influential, then switching from a zubmarine to a pleasure-yacht would be a completely reasonable RP choice.
How about a compromise: the zub gets upgraded to be +2 BDR but you have to deal with a menace card for owning one. Gotta be wary of Robert Harris ;D
I would enthusiastically support such a compromise. Acquiring a zubmarine was by no means an easy feat, and I think it should have equal mechanical benefits to a yacht. I'd even welcome the menace card, as I was rather disappointed by zub ownership didn't come up more during that story.
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Anchovies
Posts: 421
8/28/2017
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Here's another way to look at it: if your character is trying to make themselves known and influential, then switching from a zubmarine to a pleasure-yacht would be a completely reasonable RP choice.
I don't think owning multiple ships at once should be possible. However, it would be very nice if a player who switches ships could switch back for less than full price. Maybe some qualities which track whether you've designed a zub or won the card game for the yacht, and allow the player to switch ships for half the cost. Instead of selling your zubmarine you put it in dry-dock and slightly disassembled it to circumvent the Masters' restriction, or instead of selling the yacht to a stranger you transfer the deed to a friend for safekeeping and pay them to keep the yacht safe.
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PSGarak
Posts: 834
8/28/2017
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Anne Auclair wrote:
I'm a zub owner and I'm against this.
+1
If all choices and up having the same gameplay effects and I'm just choosing the color of my icons, then the choice isn't very meaningful. Two opportunity cards while Zailing would feel like a letdown of a distinction after all the effort it takes to obtain a ship. If you care about BDR, get a Yacht. If not having a zub makes you sad, then get a zub.
Besides, the extra grinding I'm putting on myself for gaining Notability isn't half as bad as the extra grinding that it took me to get the zub in the first place.
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An Individual
Posts: 589
8/27/2017
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I have no interest in giving up my Zub but every time I interact with notability I'm tempted to switch to a yacht and marry a rubbery man to get those last 4 points of BDR. I wish I didn't have to chose between optimal BDR and the few RP things I've stuck with but I don't expect that to change any time soon.
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dov
Posts: 2580
8/27/2017
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You might as well say that by choosing a spouse we need to choose between either optimal BDR (Rubbery Consort) or a bonus to a main stat (all others). So should FBG let people also marry the Rubbery in addition to their other spouse? (I would hope it's obvious the answer is "no").
It's all subjective, anyway. I, for one, have always seen the Yacht as more "plain awesome" (as you put it) than the zub. It also makes for more lucrative zee voyages. (and for speed, the zee- clipper is also great).
What's so bad with making a choice out of several options? It's not as if you can't switch if you so choose...
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Kaijyuu
Posts: 1047
8/27/2017
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With Paramount Presence recently being released and Hallowmas on the horizon, notability is something I know I'll soon be worrying about a lot.
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Be of good cheer. Our contacts have assured us that your sins are forgiven.
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Achanei
Posts: 63
8/28/2017
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Koenig wrote:
it does seem a bit odd that one would be limited to only a single partner in the neath, especially considering the other odd things that tend to happen in this sunless realm. Besides, I am sure that the Masters could get their hands on quite a few more interesting love stories should such a restriction be repealed.
I am a supporter of polyamory (and its representation in games) in principle, but I fear the only way for this to be an actual, personal choice would be by decoupling spouses from any sort of stat bonus - otherwise its just an incentive for people to collect spouses, nt an actual RP/lifestyle-decision. I would however support that decoupling to happen, its not like spouses are particularly relevant to gameplay (3 BDR or a tiny statbonus at best), and FL is otherwise pretty friendly about that sort of thing - I mean, what is the rubbery consort if not fetish-friendly? 
On the actual topic, yeah, having multiple boats would be nice (perhaps for a hefty bribe?). The one-boat-per-person rule seems silly from a narrative point of view (well, see, the yacht is actually my spouses', I'm just taking it out for a spin) and I always assumed it was more as a nod to Sunless Sea, where you aren't able to have more than one ship because, well, the game is entirely designed around controlling just that one. Though I would like to have an eschatologue-fleet and terrorize the Zee as a pirate king.... aww.
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Kaijyuu
Posts: 1047
8/28/2017
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FL is great at including gay relationships, though unfortunately AFAIK everything has been monogamous. Maybe Clathermont and his trio? Though that strikes me more as infidelity.
At the very least we can still go out on dates with other people when being married. This can be interpreted as either a form of polyamory or infidelity, either of which is an appropriate option for the game. A bit of betrayal spices up the love stories, I imagine.
It would absolutely be in-character for my character to have a dozen or so spouses.  Though I am a collector of stuff too.
edited by Kaijyuu on 8/28/2017
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Koenig
Posts: 466
8/28/2017
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If one option is numerically better than the other, then it is no longer a choice, but a math problem with an obvious answer. Outside of role playing, there is no real reason to use the zub over the yacht. (Likewise the actions saved from a single extra point of BDR far exceeds the two-three actions saved traveling the zee)
edited by Koenig on 8/28/2017
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Gonen
Posts: 817
8/28/2017
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That's an interesting post.
I started with a zub and truly loved the idea of it. It was, for me, the cooler choice. But half a year ago I switched to the Yacht solely for the BDR.
So I do care about the RP of the Zub and the BDR of yacht. But. I understand the asymmetry line FBG is going with throughout the game, from beginning to end, and... *sigh* accept this (Cheery Man valuable op card vs. nothing from Last Constable, anyone?)
edited by Gonen on 8/28/2017
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Shogo_Yahagi
Posts: 27
8/28/2017
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Sara Hysaro wrote:
Isn't it explicitly stated that the Masters of the Bazaar only allow you to have one ship?
That could be unstated.
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Kaijyuu
Posts: 1047
8/28/2017
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Allowing multiple ships and switching them with the standard interface would have problems at zee. Since you can change equipment at any time in the game you could swap ships in the middle of a journey to optimize.
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Be of good cheer. Our contacts have assured us that your sins are forgiven.
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Sara Hysaro
Moderator
Posts: 4514
8/28/2017
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If they did allow you to have multiple ships then setting out to Zee from Wolfstack Docks would probably require you to pick which one you're taking, bestowing upon you a quality to unlock those ship-specific options.
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Koenig
Posts: 466
8/28/2017
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Sara Hysaro wrote:
If they did allow you to have multiple ships then setting out to Zee from Wolfstack Docks would probably require you to pick which one you're taking, bestowing upon you a quality to unlock those ship-specific options.
I would certainly be fine with that. It would also be a bit more fun from a role playing perspective, especially if each ship had to be prepared and crewed prior.
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Optimatum
Posts: 3666
8/29/2017
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Alternatively, don't owners of the Heart have an option in Wolfstack to switch back and forth between their normal ship and the Heart? Allowing multiple ships would just require expanding on this mechanic. You could only ever have one ship in your inventory at a time but could switch at any time while in London.
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Reused NPC
Posts: 259
8/28/2017
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Polygamy? In a Christian city? (Well, Christian-ish.) What is this city coming to? The Masters have clearly gone mad in their pursuit of love stories.
...Jokes aside, I think spouses are more suited to being one at a time. Or have some conflict card that arises when you have multiple spouses wherein you have a lot of explaining to do. (And probably lose one of your spouses.)
As for ships, however, I'm not against the idea of multiple ships, but I feel like there'd have to be some caveat to it with drydock or something. IE you can pay for the shiny Yacht for your mantlepiece, just so you can say you have it, or for BDR, or what have you, while you continue to zail in your Tramp Steamer. ...or Zub, or Clipper, if that's what you so prefer. Ultimately, the ships are more or less an item like any other, and nobody's asking you to choose between having a Journal of Metaphysical Conjecture, a Posy of the Neath's Finest Flowers, or a copy of... whatever Shadowy book you have. (Ships aren't going to get jealous of each other sitting in drydock. Well, except in a Polythremic drydock.)
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dov
Posts: 2580
8/28/2017
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Amalgamate wrote:
I'm pretty sure the one-ship rule predates sunless sea.
Definitely. By several years.
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dov
Posts: 2580
8/28/2017
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Televangelist wrote:
Yes, having optimal BDR tied to something that feels as personal as your character's specific choice of spouse is *also* an extremely poor design decision.
That's pretty subjective. It might seem like a poor design decision to you, but obviously it is the desired design in the eyes of FBG.
The game is about choices and consequences. These are often (by design) asymmetrical. As others have pointed out, if you can have everything, then there's no longer any real choice, just a collection.
Another example: you can only be a member of one Club, and they boost different stats. That extra point of Persuasive/Shadowy can be critical when trying to max Renown
Also: depending on your end choice in The Gift, you unlock a new card which gives you a Favour with either the Docks or Society.
There are plenty of such examples. Choices have (asymmetrical) consequences.
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edited by dov on 8/28/2017
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Amalgamate
Posts: 435
8/28/2017
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As soon as you can have multiples, then high-level players just collect all of them and it also stops being an RP choice. I mean, I wouldn't mind that because 99% of late-game play is just collecting things for the sake of collecting them. But I just don't think it helps the RP to have more. If I could have multiple ships or multiple spouses, I'd also collect them all.
I'm pretty sure the one-ship rule predates sunless sea.
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Koenig
Posts: 466
8/27/2017
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Sara Hysaro wrote:
Isn't it explicitly stated that the Masters of the Bazaar only allow you to have one ship?
Although as far I have seen (NOTE that I have only been able to play the free content side of Echo Bazaar) that has never been built upon nor implemented into the story in any way. It seems more like something that was added last second to justify the mechanical decision rather than part of the world building itself. If the really is the case, I think most of us are ready to have a second ship to rely on (Besides, Its not like the Masters have not been known to change their minds either.)
On the topic of spouses; although i am firm believer of classical marriage in London (fallen or not), it does seem a bit odd that one would be limited to only a single partner in the neath, especially considering the other odd things that tend to happen in this sunless realm. Besides, I am sure that the Masters could get their hands on quite a few more interesting love stories should such a restriction be repealed.
edited by Koenig on 8/27/2017
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Anne Auclair
Posts: 2215
8/27/2017
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I'm a zub owner and I'm against this.
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