A Dimness
Posts: 613
7/4/2017
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Barse wrote:
Having been met with a *handwave* after my last post - which I put a fair amount of time into and will leave as it stands and comment no further on - I'm currently disinclined to go through echoes and records to find exact examples to point at, but as a member of the Young Stags (I really should change that - it's hardly fitting) and having played through the Seven Day Reign, I am under no illusions as to what and who the Young Stags are.
To pick a pertinent example, just as Feducci's naysayers may (possibly quite correctly) assume that, as a cheater, killer and opportunist, he will act in such a manner if given a position of responsibility, I am quite certain that the Young Stags, as a group of young, rich bohemians, will act in a drunken, debauched and disorderly fashion if given a position of responsibility over the largest repository in the city of the city's most notorious drug. Regardless, perhaps, of Chuffy's good intentions (he seems a stalwart fellow).
In any case, scrutiny of the Campaigner wasn't the main point of my post, and hence that tangential remark is not one I'm prepared to devote much time to defending - it's simply my feelings on the proclivities of the Honey Well's "guardians". Other people's mileages, and interpretations, may of course vary, I was simply communicating a minor misgiving.
I'll likely return now to my cautious skirting of the forums until the event is over - I'm not a fan of conflict, however mild - but I'm in-game or on the IRC. Good luck to the Campaigner and everyone involved! She'd make a fine mayor.
Oh, I wasn't looking to argue on a minor point, I just wanted to clear any confusions.
That aside, I'm not going to argue with the bulk of your post either. It's solid reasoning an well-built, but it's something that Anne has to see to personally, I can't and won't justify her own actions.
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A truth so strange it can only be lied into existence
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Isaac Zienfried
Posts: 364
7/4/2017
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Barse wrote:
I'm not a fan of conflict, however mild
I can't pretend to know what that's like. Sometimes I wonder if the only reason I'm not with Feducci is because the bigger fight is against him.
...Wait, that's exactly what it is! If you want a real fight, people, you'll stop supporting the front-runner!
Though it does mean half our campaign staff are looking into human muzzles because of me.
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Isaac Zienfried, 'The Vacillating Belligerent.'
A gentleman of complicated loyalties, complicated morality, and complicated goals.
But really, it's hard to keep things simple down here!
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Hark DeGaul
Posts: 208
7/4/2017
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I am also a tad nervous of the Young Stags being involved having played Seven Day Reign, but I think we should remember that this very much appears to be Chuffy and Company helping his relatives and not the Stags as a whole signing on.
The early flavour text of that story seems to suggest that Chuffy is not a member of the inner circle of the Young Stags and I very much doubt his Dauntless Grandmum would allow him to guard honey if he was (considering what they get up to in the story). The majority of Stags are louts and probably far from the most effective guard the Campaigner could arrange, but they're largely harmless and guarding a pit full of opiatic dreamjuice keeps them out of trouble anyway.
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The Dawn-Eyed Optician: http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Hark%20DeGaul
That Vicar Who Ruined the Royal Wedding for Everyone (including himself): http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Hebediah%20Fix
The Dreaded Relative: http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Your%20Aunt
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Teaspoon
Posts: 866
7/4/2017
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There tends to be quite a lot of disdain about the evils of hypocrisy (which much of the time seems to be just "changing one's mind") which I've never entirely understood. Altering one's views to fit new facts is not a sin, but an intelligent response to a new situation.
If no one ever changed their mind on anything, then trying to persuade people would be awfully irrelevant.
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Truth lies at the bottom of a well.
https://www.fallenlondon.com/profile/Alt%20Ern
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Estelle Knoht
Posts: 1751
7/4/2017
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Hark DeGaul wrote:
I am also a tad nervous of the Young Stags being involved having played Seven Day Reign, but I think we should remember that this very much appears to be Chuffy and Company helping his relatives and not the Stags as a whole signing on.
The early flavour text of that story seems to suggest that Chuffy is not a member of the inner circle of the Young Stags and I very much doubt his Dauntless Grandmum would allow him to guard honey if he was (considering what they get up to in the story). The majority of Stags are louts and probably far from the most effective guard the Campaigner could arrange, but they're largely harmless and guarding a pit full of opiatic dreamjuice keeps them out of trouble anyway.
Oh god SDR.
I am still mad that there isn't a Shattering Force option of London Handsaw Massacre for the Secret Stags Meeting!
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Estelle Knoht, a juvenile, unreliable and respectable lady.
I currently do not accept any catbox, cider, suppers, calling cards or proteges.
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A Dimness
Posts: 613
7/4/2017
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Drake Dynamo wrote:
Anne Auclair wrote:
It is worth mentioning that if I wanted above all to humiliate Jenny and pull her legacy up by the roots, I'd be supporting Feducci. And if I wanted above all to investigate Jenny's administration for corruption, I'd be supporting the Detective.
That may be so, but the point Barselaar is making is that you appear to have forsaken your previous principles and stances, all in an attempt to win votes. You could have shown the rest of the forums that you're a woman of your word, and admitted that perhaps it's wrong of you to praise Jenny's endorsement of the DTC; however, you compromised everything you had previously stood for (or, I suppose, against) and shown us all you're just a hypocrite with no true guiding compass. For shame.
edited by Drake Dynamo on 7/4/2017
Drake, that's a bit harsh. I suggest you relax a bit.
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A truth so strange it can only be lied into existence
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Isaac Zienfried
Posts: 364
7/4/2017
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Infinity Simulacrum wrote:
Drake, that's a bit harsh. I suggest you relax a bit.
Should I put on a pot of tea?
--
Isaac Zienfried, 'The Vacillating Belligerent.'
A gentleman of complicated loyalties, complicated morality, and complicated goals.
But really, it's hard to keep things simple down here!
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Estelle Knoht
Posts: 1751
7/4/2017
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I live in Asia... please don't suggest that. (Edit: I know you mean well, but it is a terrifying concept when you speak Chinese.)
I believe in this particular case it is more "You unrelentingly bashed on Jenny too much to make this convincing", though.
edited by Estelle Knoht on 7/4/2017
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Estelle Knoht, a juvenile, unreliable and respectable lady.
I currently do not accept any catbox, cider, suppers, calling cards or proteges.
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Isaac Zienfried
Posts: 364
7/4/2017
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Estelle Knoht wrote:
I believe in this particular case it is more "You unrelentingly bashed on Jenny too much to make this convincing", though.
Shush and let me have my snips. They're all I have. If I can't crack wise, people might realize I'm lacking in personality.
--
Isaac Zienfried, 'The Vacillating Belligerent.'
A gentleman of complicated loyalties, complicated morality, and complicated goals.
But really, it's hard to keep things simple down here!
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Diptych
Administrator
Posts: 3493
7/4/2017
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Christ on a bike, people. It's not even dawn yet and I awake to personal attacks and "hilarious" racism. I suggest you get your posts back in order before I finish my next cuppa.
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Sir Frederick, the Libertarian Esotericist. Lord Hubris, the Bloody Baron.
Juniper Brown, the Ill-Fated Orphan. Esther Ellis-Hall, the Fashionable Fabian.
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Gillsing
Posts: 1203
7/4/2017
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Isaac Zienfried wrote:
Nope, admitting you were wrong means you have no pride. It's grounds for ritual suicide, like those folk in Asia.
I thought the ritual suicide was for people who had been discovered to have insufficient honour? But it's probably true that pride would prevent someone from admitting having been wrong. Those two are not the same though.
As for the issue at hand, it makes perfect sense to welcome even the most scandalous and corrupt into one's fold if they are willing to lend support. If one then claims that one has had a change of heart, and was apparently wrong about the person not only before their time as Mayor, but also during that time... Well, I'm sure that doesn't indicate any lack of judgment regarding one's current opposition. Oh no. Not at all. Sip tea and carry on.
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Isaac Zienfried
Posts: 364
7/4/2017
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Sir Frederick Tanah-Chook wrote:
Christ on a bike, people. It's not even dawn yet and I awake to personal attacks and "hilarious" racism. I suggest you get your posts back in order before I finish my next cuppa.
...I hadn't intended that to be even remotely racist, and my apologies if it can at all be interpreted as such. I was referencing seppuku, an actual historical form of Japanese ritual suicide, but halfway in-character by abstracting it to "folk in Asia." I hadn't seen stating that a culture engages in a practice as being particularly racist. Heck, the only reason it came up in my head is because my RPG group's been doing a Legend of the Five Rings game. I'll apologize about it being worded poorly and opening the post up to unintended interpretations, but the general intention wasn't at all offensive.
Gillsing wrote:
I thought the ritual suicide was for people who had been discovered to have insufficient honour?
Essentially, yes, although the two weren't entirely separate. I was really just drawing an example for an egregious exaggeration for a response to some social failing or personal shortcoming.
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Isaac Zienfried, 'The Vacillating Belligerent.'
A gentleman of complicated loyalties, complicated morality, and complicated goals.
But really, it's hard to keep things simple down here!
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The Glass Boffin
Posts: 51
7/5/2017
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I hereby change my support from Feducci to The Dauntless Temperance Campaigner. Annie Auclair has made a strong case and has moved me so, even as it pains me to abandon such a delicious candidate as Feducci.
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http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/profile/Glass~Boffin
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Anne Auclair
Posts: 2215
7/5/2017
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Blaine Davidson wrote:
I have replied but I will share my response here as well:
Ms. Davidson gingerly takes a cup of the offered tea before speaking. "That's one concern down, to say the least. You must forgive me for being ignorant with regards to any activities regarding Anarchists. I abhor them."
She gently sips and continues, "But my other concerns with the wasted wine and honey still stands. Does she truly believe that the rest of London will stop imbibing? And the stories of this" honey well" are disconcerting and best. To be honest, the Campaigner seems a touch naive with no end goal in sight."
"The Bishop had my full support last year and I'd like to be on a winning side this time around. I just don't know if she has what it takes to be victorious. I am just one woman after all. Even with all the work I've done would it be enough to sway the odds?"
An empty cup is set down. With her hands neatly folded across her lap, Blaine Davidson awaits your response.
edited by Blaine Davidson on 7/4/2017
Here is my attempt at a proper conversion speech. I hope it satisfies ^_^ Posted here for the same reason as the last one.
***
“Oh that well, that well – the well was a straightforward mistake. The Campaigner wanted her message to reach those who needed it the most, which would have been very hard if many of them were lost in a honey dream or slumped in a drunken stupor. So she set out to temporarily reduce the supply of booze and honey for the duration of the election. This can hardly be considered wasteful when there is such an overabundance of these products – a bottle of the cheapest wine costs a mere 3 pennies, while a good honey trip costs no more than 40 pennies. Now the wine and gin were purchased and poured down a sewer drain, but the Campaigner hadn’t reckoned on how to get rid of the honey, hence her recourse to the well.
“Southwark of course would never have made such a mistake, but the Bishop is experienced in the arts of government from his time in the Church and the military bureaucracy. The Campaigner is an activist who is still in the process of learning the ins and outs of government. I’m pretty sure she has learned her lesson though and is all the better for it. In government, you can’t just act as you would when you put a protest together – you need to plan things out from beginning to end. Everyone makes mistakes when doing something unfamiliar, but good leaders learn from their mistakes, and should the Campaigner be elected this lesson of the honey well will weigh on her mind for the duration of her term: 'whatever you do, don't do that again.'
“Feducci has yet to learn a similar lesson despite being centuries older…and I don’t think he ever will. He is too much of an egotist to admit anything as personally limiting as an error or an impossibility. 'Liberty is license,' after all. And being immortal and invulnerable means that consequences are for other people. But government is the art of navigating limits and weighing consequences, not wishing them away as impediments to ones will.
“I know you're worried by our Steel Lady's personal austerity, but the Campaigner has no intention of stopping London from imbibing alcohol and honey. They’re too much a part of Neathy existence. I myself am reliant on honey for my work involving dreams and mirrors. For many people it is profitable experience or a diverting pass-time. These experiences are what make Neathy art so unique. But for many other people, it must be recognized, prisoners honey becomes a ruinous, profitless and all-consuming addiction. You will regularly see these poor, “honey-mazed” wretches wandering our streets or permanently haunting the honey-dens, scarecrow thin, confused, and smelling of stale honey. Prisoners Honey is called Prisoners Honey for a reason - it imprisons people. Many honey addicts try to flee their addiction by turning to Devil's gin, only to end up falling into a new inescapable dependence. You will find many of these drunks sleeping on the streets of Spite, homeless, helpless, often robbed. Surely we shouldn’t simply *accept* this as the cost of doing business?!
“Adding to this problem, life in our poor Hades can be quite hard and so many people are tempted by unscrupulous landlords, grasping bankers, or merciless factory bosses to take temporary refuge in dreams. Financial desperation leads to desperate escapism that leads to addiction that deepens financial desperation and destroys families, the children ending up Urchins in the Flit. Many of these Urchins are forced into crime and ultimately grow up to work for the Cheery Man, the Grecious Widow, and the Topsy King. Gin and honey, combined with economic exploitation, are at the root of so much of London's poverty and criminality.
"What the Dauntless Temperance Campaigner desires is to make alcohol and honey less glamorous, to reduce the overabundance, to help those who can’t handle them kick their habits, and to relieve the social and economic pressures that lead ordinary people to seek temporary but potentially ruinous escape. The alternative is, what? More addicts? More homeless people? More Urchins? More crime and violence? More prisoners in New Newgate? A social crisis is looming in London and the other candidates are proposing to increase it further. The Campaigner is the only one with a plan; there is no alternative.
“The Campaigner has often been labeled naive by her enemies. Power of course always likes to label those opposed to the status quo as fools: ‘they just aren’t realistic, you see.’ But the Campaigner has been on London’s streets for decades, fighting its innumerable injustices. How can anyone who has spent their life this way be naive as to what our city is capable of? She knows that power concedes nothing without demand, it never has and it never will.
“I’d suggest part of the air of innocence around her is a deliberate strategy on her part, a turning of power's tactics against it. She is after all a student of John Cassell, the late March assassinated by the Calendar Council. Here is the book that John wrote to train his followers in the arts of being underestimated:
"A Book of Nonsense: Whimsical stories of ridiculous characters, and many of the words seem made up."
It takes a few minutes, but you begin to discern hidden messages among the straightforward absurdity. A substitution cipher for the titles; and here, every third letter spells an instruction:
'Should you, or should you not hide your abilities? A fool might be underestimated – but you should not play the fool. No, such a tactic is overused. Play the fool's fool. Or perhaps not a fool at all. But play. Or fool. Victory is thus inevitable.'
“After all, who in London saw her coming? Well, besides me, of course. And our good Bishop. More tea?”
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edited by Anne Auclair on 7/5/2017
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http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Anne%20Auclair
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Blaine Davidson
Posts: 388
7/5/2017
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Anne Auclair wrote:
-snip-
And my response in turn:
The teacup sits uncomfortably in Ms. Davidson's hands. With her head bowed down it would be understandable to assume she had fallen asleep. That is, had her eyes not been wide and affixed on the rapidly cooling tea.
Finally, a sigh, and the cold, untouched tea is returned to its saucer. Blaine raises her eyes to meet yours. Her lips are pursed pencil-thin before she speaks.
"Very well, you win." She turns her head, gaze not focused on anything particular before continuing, "I don't feel comfortable about any of this but we really don't have much of an option do we?"
"Were you researching my distaste of Devils and their ilk? I'm fairly certain you knew about my orphanage? Small and hidden but serviceable. How much of my past did you dig up on me before you came for your "visit"? Poking at my soft spots? That's hardly sporting." Blaine glowers at you for a heartbeat as she stands up.
"My campaign resources will be diverted from Feducci when he least expects it. I doubt I'm the only person of interest that you intend to target and let's hope you're just as successful with the rest."
"I hope you're right about the Campaigner. And thank you for the tea." Ms. Davidson tips the remainder of the frigid tea into the waiting maw of a Heptagoat. The goat bleats softly in what you hope is agreeance.
edited by Blaine Davidson on 7/9/2017
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Blaine Davidson, a reserved and sensible woman with a fondness of collecting rarities.
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A Dimness
Posts: 613
7/5/2017
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Anne Auclair wrote:
-snip-
You should probably snip your quotes a bit so the page isn't too overly long.
edited by Infinity Simulacrum on 7/5/2017
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A truth so strange it can only be lied into existence
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Anne Auclair
Posts: 2215
7/9/2017
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A few days ago, Amsfield posted this on the Feducci thread, but I didn't have time to write a rebuttal until now. I'm posting it here, since it's about the endorsement.
Amsfield wrote:
*Ahem* I would like to address those among us who, like myself, hold our current mayor in the high regard she deserves. In fact, I would go so far as to claim actual affection for her, and have been ever a supporter of her efforts. I understand that many of you, in light of this respect for the mayor, may be having second thought after her disagreement with Feducci. Please Ladies, Gentlemen and assorted other personages, allow me to implore you to not allow this personal disagreement between two of our fair city's most worthy names to jeopardise our shared future! These two luminaries are, we must remember, both immensely strong personalities, ill suited to compromise or surrender; it is for this reason we admire them.Of course they would come into conflict when they come to share space!
By framing Jenny's opposition to Feducci as a mere personal disagreement, he paints the Mayor as too self-absorbed and petty to realize London's best interests. So the fact that Feducci's program is dramatically opposed to Jenny's in both intentions and underlying philosophy is of no consequence in Jenny's endorsement of the Campaigner. Nor is it of consequence whether Jenny thinks Feducci is actually fit to occupy her office (the fact that the special Gazette edition that she personally distributed pointed out that there was "foreign interference" backing Feducci strongly suggests she views him as very unfit). Nope, according to Amsfield and others, Jenny just can't bare to cede the spotlight and so she opposes Feducci out of spite. It's just a clash of personalities without any substance to it.
That is hardly holding the Mayor in high regard.
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http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Anne%20Auclair
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Amsfield
Posts: 176
7/9/2017
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Anne Auclair wrote:
A few days ago, Amsfield posted this on the Feducci thread, but I didn't have time to write a rebuttal until now. I'm posting it here, since it's about the endorsement.
Amsfield wrote:
*Ahem* I would like to address those among us who, like myself, hold our current mayor in the high regard she deserves. In fact, I would go so far as to claim actual affection for her, and have been ever a supporter of her efforts. I understand that many of you, in light of this respect for the mayor, may be having second thought after her disagreement with Feducci. Please Ladies, Gentlemen and assorted other personages, allow me to implore you to not allow this personal disagreement between two of our fair city's most worthy names to jeopardise our shared future! These two luminaries are, we must remember, both immensely strong personalities, ill suited to compromise or surrender; it is for this reason we admire them.Of course they would come into conflict when they come to share space!
By framing Jenny's opposition to Feducci as a mere personal disagreement, he paints the Mayor as too self-absorbed and petty to realize London's best interests. So the fact that Feducci's program is dramatically opposed to Jenny's in both intentions and underlying philosophy is of no consequence in Jenny's endorsement of the Campaigner. Nor is it of consequence whether Jenny thinks Feducci is actually fit to occupy her office (the fact that the special Gazette edition that she personally distributed pointed out that there was "foreign interference" backing Feducci strongly suggests she views him as very unfit). Nope, according to Amsfield and others, Jenny just can't bare to cede the spotlight and so she opposes Feducci out of spite. It's just a clash of personalities without any substance to it.
That is hardly holding the Mayor in high regard.
I'll thank you not to put words in my mouth. That their policies differ somewhat is no secret, and as I say both are not people used compromise. That Jenny does not approve of Feducci is obvious, as she is not one to accept less than her ideals; The fact that they favor different methods is sufficient grounds for her not to endorse him, I readily accept and acknowledge that. However, I maintain that a great deal of the animosity is in fact personal. What can you call arguing about curtains, hosting parties beneath each others rooms and (admittedly unflatteringly) snide remarks (primarily from Feducci, I am ashamed to admit) but a personal disagreement. That the disagreement was initially due to differing political opinions is not an issue, political arguments take place in the form of public debate, either in person or in open letters, not in privet arguments. In no part of this do I accuse the mayor of being petty, it is not petty to disagree with or even dislike another person.
The truth remains that I voted for Jenny (and were she standing, would again) out of a belief in Liberty and in Fairness, and Feducci is the only candidate to represent these values. It is that sense that Feducci is the legitimate successor to Sinning Jenny.
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Amsfield: http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Amsfield
A devotee of pleasures intellectual and fleshy. Always fabulously masked.
Honoria Kastern: http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Honoria%20Kastern
A hunter, a shooter and a fisher. Also a patriotic busy body. Mildly corrupted.
Maiser: http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Maiser
A young firebrand of obviously criminal intent.
Venshik: http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Venshik
Not a nice person.
Asmeria: http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Asmeria
Quiet, thoughtful and possibly mad. Excellent listener though. Favours grey.
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Isaac Zienfried
Posts: 364
7/9/2017
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So, you two gonna keep flirting across the entire Election subforum until the event's over? I genuinely hope so; this is pretty engaging.
Really though, it's nice to see Feducci's got someone as spirited as our Anne. She needed an outlet.
--
Isaac Zienfried, 'The Vacillating Belligerent.'
A gentleman of complicated loyalties, complicated morality, and complicated goals.
But really, it's hard to keep things simple down here!
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Amsfield
Posts: 176
7/9/2017
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Isaac Zienfried wrote:
Really though, it's nice to see Feducci's got someone as spirited as our Anne. She needed an outlet.
It is for this reason I have stepped up to that role. It is only a shame that The Detective has no such evangelist.
Honestly, I suspect between us we may be doing her a great service, we might have made her the moderate's favorite.
edited by Amsfield on 7/9/2017
--
Amsfield: http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Amsfield
A devotee of pleasures intellectual and fleshy. Always fabulously masked.
Honoria Kastern: http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Honoria%20Kastern
A hunter, a shooter and a fisher. Also a patriotic busy body. Mildly corrupted.
Maiser: http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Maiser
A young firebrand of obviously criminal intent.
Venshik: http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Venshik
Not a nice person.
Asmeria: http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Asmeria
Quiet, thoughtful and possibly mad. Excellent listener though. Favours grey.
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