 Nigel Overstreet Posts: 1220
7/4/2017
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Anne Auclair wrote:
I don't think so. I remember it being the same reward across the board. Some people really hated that. Found the results from last year and it was, indeed, based on Career level. People were mad that the reward wasn't commensurate with the amount of actions they put into it. They felt that each Career level "cost" them echoes. As seen here.
-- The Romantic Egotist: Most Hedonistic Man in All of Fallen London Are you or someone you know Overgoated? Please, let me know! Cider Club
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 Anne Auclair Posts: 2215
7/4/2017
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Nigel Overstreet wrote:
Anne Auclair wrote:
I don't think so. I remember it being the same reward across the board. Some people really hated that. Found the results from last year and it was, indeed, based on Career level. The wiki says that your election career level only affected the number of Journals of Infamy you received. All the bigger items were given regardless of career level. edited by Anne Auclair on 7/4/2017
-- http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Anne%20Auclair
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 Isaac Zienfried Posts: 364
7/4/2017
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...I think that does indeed prove the reward was based on career level.
A few JoIs may not be a big deal to some of us, but for others...
-- Isaac Zienfried, 'The Vacillating Belligerent.' A gentleman of complicated loyalties, complicated morality, and complicated goals. But really, it's hard to keep things simple down here!
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 Anne Auclair Posts: 2215
7/4/2017
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Isaac Zienfried wrote:
...I think that does indeed prove the reward was based on career level. Indeed. Partly.
-- http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Anne%20Auclair
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 Isaac Zienfried Posts: 364
7/4/2017
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I don't think it's anything particularly dramatic, but hey. I don't decide how everyone gauges the worth of items.
-- Isaac Zienfried, 'The Vacillating Belligerent.' A gentleman of complicated loyalties, complicated morality, and complicated goals. But really, it's hard to keep things simple down here!
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 Nigel Overstreet Posts: 1220
7/4/2017
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It affected both the Journals of Infamy and the Sworn Statments you received. That is a difference between 20 Echoes and 115 Echoes. I certainly wouldn't call that the same across the board. And I think up to 95 Echoes is a significant enough amount that most people aren't willing to give it up to switch candidates. Especially considering how much work they would have to put into it again to receive it.
Original Garbled Text in case I messed up in deciphering: [spoiler] %5Bquote%3DAnne%20Auclair%5D%5Bquote%3DIsaac%20Zienfried%5D...I%20think%20that%20does%20indeed%20prove%20the%20reward%20was%20based%20on%20career%20level.%5B/quote%5D%3Cbr%3EIndeed.%20%20Partly.%5B/quote%5DIt%20affected%20both%20the%20Journals%20of%20Infamy%20and%20the%20Sworn%20Statements%20you%20received.%20That%27s%20a%20difference%20between%2020%20Echoes%20and%20115%20Echoes.%20I%20certainly%20wouldn%27t%20call%20that%20%22the%20same%20across%20the%20board.%22%3Cbr%3EAnd%20I%20think%20up%20to%2095%20Echoes%20is%20a%20significant%20enough%20amount%20that%20most%20people%20aren%27t%20willing%20to%20give%20it%20up%20to%20switch%20candidates.%20Especially%20considering%20how%20much%20work%20they%20would%20have%20to%20put%20into%20it%2C%20again%2C%20to%20receive%20it.[/spoiler]
-- edited by Sara Hysaro on 7/4/2017
-- The Romantic Egotist: Most Hedonistic Man in All of Fallen London Are you or someone you know Overgoated? Please, let me know! Cider Club
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 A Dimness Posts: 613
7/4/2017
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Nigel Overstreet wrote:
Garbled nonsense It happens to the best of us.
-- A truth so strange it can only be lied into existence
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 Akernis Posts: 255
7/4/2017
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Anne Auclair wrote:
I sent you some RP about the anarchists via a two part letter. I rather liked it, so I'm posting it here as well. Though on this thread it should be read for the argument, not the RP. *snip*
We have widely different political opinions (at least in the Neath). But I do commend excellent roleplay and smart thinking. That snippet was a joy to read. You are an excellent opponent in this fair game and though I will not switch from supporting Feducci, I will bow graciously to your efforts should the Dauntless Temperance Campaigner win the day.
-- Vena's profile - http://fallenlondon.com/Profile/Akernis
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 crazyroosterman Posts: 187
7/4/2017
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hmm while im still in for supporting fedduci the arguments for the campaigner have been really strong...im getting to the point of considering switching but I still don't think shell be able to make real change. I feel that in the hypothetical scenario she gets into power and tries to make change the masters will get in her at every opportunity.
if you think other wise and think you can convince me to see things your way then go ahead and try I could justify having zorgan switch and I don't mind paying fate so I could do so with wreaking my momentum.
did that all make coherent sense? it does to me of course but I feel like it won't to other readers?.
edited by crazyroosterman on 7/4/2017
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 Amsfield Posts: 176
7/4/2017
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Isaac Zienfried wrote:
Anarchy is merely oppression of the weak by the strong, after all. It's a tyranny in waiting.
Slight correction, I believe you meant 'government' there. Anarchy, by definition, isn't.
-- Amsfield: http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Amsfield A devotee of pleasures intellectual and fleshy. Always fabulously masked. Honoria Kastern: http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Honoria%20Kastern A hunter, a shooter and a fisher. Also a patriotic busy body. Mildly corrupted. Maiser: http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Maiser A young firebrand of obviously criminal intent. Venshik: http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Venshik Not a nice person. Asmeria: http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Asmeria Quiet, thoughtful and possibly mad. Excellent listener though. Favours grey.
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 Barse Posts: 706
7/4/2017
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I have for the most part not taken part in the Election forum debates – nor did I participate much last year – because my feelings tend not to be as strong as some others’, and because the forum, during both elections, has had its fair share of assertive and eloquent voices on all sides. However, I saw the name of this thread, and, curious, checked who created it. Seeing this, I felt that there was an avenue of response that perhaps had not yet been considered, one that might well be worth exploring. Rather than a rebuttal aimed at the Dauntless Temperance Campaigner – for whom I have a great deal of respect, especially after witnessing her so firmly hold her ground against anarchists, an activity at which my candidate last year, the Jovial Contrarian, failed utterly (although I must admit I am concerned at her turning a blind eye to the actions of her grandson, who threatens to undermine her whole campaign) – this is a rebuttal addressed to Anne Auclair, the Campaigner’s campaigner extraordinaire, especially with regard to what I see as hypocrisy. First off, I have no desire to sink into any of the irritability or creeping unpleasantness which finds its way into so much election discussion, mostly without any ill-will on the part of the participants, so I’m going to try to keep this as neutral as possible. By the same token, Anne has been thorough and merciless with regard to researching her arguments and pointing out flaws in the arguments of other people, so I hope she will be pleased to have the same offered her way in reply. This response is offered in the spirit of fun (if of a slightly adversarial nature) and I hope it is received as such! Which brings me to the point. “SINNING JENNY ENDORSES THE DAUNTLESS CAMPAIGNER”, the title of this thread loudly announces. While it is by no means a concrete (or vocal) endorsement, I believe this deduction is probably correct. What puzzles me more than anything, Anne, is why you are presenting this as a good thing. I am assuming, if you are campaigning either as yourself or as your character, that your convictions have not altered so drastically in the last year (or even in the past two weeks, as we saw when Feducci was announced). Last year, you were not so much a Bishop supporter as an anti-Jenny campaigner, writing many strongly-worded and lengthy polemics against her and her principles over the course of not just the election, but her entire term. There was no shortage of material for me to choose from, so I cherry-picked a few of your choicest words about our dear Mayor, Sinning Jenny. (I’m using the forum quote function for ease of presentation, but only things within quotation marks are directly quoted from forums posts.) Anne Auclair wrote:
Jenny’s candidacy is "one of Mr Wines' little pranks" Jenny “doesn't seem to have any greater cause than her own ambition” Sinning Jenny’s administration is “corrupt, scandal plagued, and incompetent” “One doesn't have to bend to attribute malevolence to Sinning Jenny. One has to bend to not do so.” “Society didn't like Jenny, it's why she had to blackmail them.” “Her whole campaign is thus proven false.” Jenny is “a fundamentally selfish and dishonest person.” I think it’s fair to say that you’ve had no change of heart throughout Jenny’s term, lambasting her every move. Of her biggest act since becoming Mayor, the Finishing School, you wrote that it was “a den of violence and iniquity” and “largely a scam”. So as it stands, you have historically been utterly opposed to Sinning Jenny occupying the mayoral office, and have not been impressed nor pleased with many (if any) of her accomplishments while she has held said office. And yet. And yet you appear to be using her endorsement of your chosen candidate this year as a positive. This seems rather disingenuous, and not least, by your rhetoric, an extremely bad move, Jenny being an individual motivated by self-interest, ambition, and corruption whose judgement is very likely, according to you, extremely bad. Granted, many Fallen Londoners (like myself) have been largely satisfied with Jenny’s term, and thus her endorsement of the Campaigner may well be seen as a positive thing. But it’s important, as one of the chiefest political movers and shakers in the Fallen London community, and such a vocal advocate of research and fair debate, that you be kept honest. This election does not exist in a vacuum, and neither do one’s words or allegiances. I believe the most effective rhetoric – that is, the rhetoric that forms an argument most likely to change someone’s mind and have it stay that way – is positive, is constructive. Of your sterling work extolling the Temperance Campaigner’s virtues I am very much in awe. My vote is decidedly in sway, still uncertain, and even if I do not vote for ol’ Dauntless I respect the work you and a select group of others have done in trying to convince a large number of us that hers is the right cause to back. Attacking other candidates, however, tends to have a way of coming back to bite one in the buttocks. So just to be clear, when I see Anne Auclair writing “Sinning Jenny Endorses the Dauntless Campaigner”, what I read, being an interested follower of your forum activity, is: “Corrupt, Scandal-plagued, Incompetent Mayor, Who Operates Out of the Masters’ Pockets and has Caused London No Good, Endorses the Dauntless Temperance Campaigner.” Which doesn’t look so good. edited by Barse on 7/4/2017
--
The Scorched Sailor, up for most social actions and RP. Not as scary as he looks.
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 Estelle Knoht Posts: 1751
7/4/2017
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Nigel Overstreet wrote:
Anne Auclair wrote:
I don't think so. I remember it being the same reward across the board. Some people really hated that. Found the results from last year and it was, indeed, based on Career level. People were mad that the reward wasn't commensurate with the amount of actions they put into it. They felt that each Career level "cost" them echoes. As seen here.
Hm. A fine time to remind people that you probably donated far more to your allies than you could ever "earn". There's a reason why you start off with a nice gift.
So in any case (switching, or not), I hope people won't be too mad this year over the lack of fictional financial compensation  edited by Estelle Knoht on 7/4/2017
-- Estelle Knoht, a juvenile, unreliable and respectable lady. I currently do not accept any catbox, cider, suppers, calling cards or proteges.
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 Vavakx Nonexus Posts: 892
7/4/2017
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The Dark Gentleman wrote:
Anne Auclair wrote:
Okay, with Equality in Death, equality waits until death, with no equality in life. Inherent is equality being either bad or impossible.
Akernis wrote:
Feducci never claimed that one has to be dead to be equal... I think he does. He writes: All Could Rise, Most Shan't. Equality in Death, Liberty in License.
Let's take that statement apart.
1. All Could Rise - Feducci's vague plans to get rid of all restrictions on upward mobility.
2. Most Shan't - Self explanatory.
3. Equality in Death - no equality, equality is bad, equality should wait until death.
4. Liberty in License - being able to do whatever you want.
These are all fairly absolute principles. edited by Anne Auclair on 7/4/2017
I must disagree with at least some of your reasoning. Feducci, based on the writings available, isn't saying equality in life is bad, only that equality in death is inevitable. There is no better version of dead. Death is, as they say, the great equalizer.
As for the "All Could Rise" statement, there is less of a policy proposal and more of a basic statement of fact in this line: It is at least theoretically possible for ANYONE to succeed and advance in Feducci's worldview (and, one would assume, the player worldview, since time and effort spent in the Neath are rewarded with prominence, skill, wealth, and influence).
"Most Shan't" deals less with an outside force holding back one from a risen state. Rather, I believe the line implies that a lack of motivation, boldness, and clever preparation keep the low in their current place. Even the Campaigner must see her efforts wasted on the occasional backslider. Even the Detective knows recidivism runs high amongst Criminals. But the only bounds on one's opportunities should be of their own making. We cannot hold you back. But you may.
I believe I've already addressed the third portion on this statement with a radically different viewpoint, so finally on to the forth, "Liberty in License." Here, at last, we find common ground. "Being able to do whatever you want" states the case a bit...provocatively, but it gets the point across. To refine that point with some other Feducci sentiments, a citizen should be able to do what they wish. And then accept the consequences of those actions. One has the authority (or "License", if you will) to do as they please, but also have authority over the results. Make a large wager on dubious trade deals? Reap the monetary benefits of their success. Gamble your title on a horserace? Hand it over when you lose. Graciously.
Feducci wants the citizenry to take whatever action they can personally justify in order to advance. And to accept the results of those actions, come what may. He also realizes that many won't take this opportunity, or will do so and fail. He isn't promising a honey-dream utopia of Society women clasped arm-in-arm with reformed Bohemians, nor a crushing law-and-order totalitarian regime ruled by coldly logical Constables. He's giving everyone the CHANCE to rise, not the guarantee. And making no secret of the fact that not everyone can win. But everyone should have the equal opportunity to do so. I'd also argue that death's use in this is at least somewhat metaphorical and stands for losing in general, tying into his previously shown ideas about competitions and gambling as equalizing forces.
The ability to lose your advantages, such as your noble title or your material wealth, would mean to him that those who have kept them are skilled enough to hold on to them and merit their position.
The Aristocracy of Hell was not able to hold its own, and he helped it fall.
-- Amets Estibariz, the Moulting Eidolon: Cradled by a sun all their own.

Blabbing, the Hobo Everyone Knows: The One Who Pulls The Strings. A Clarity In The Darkness.

Charlotte and the Caretaker: A family?
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 Isaac Zienfried Posts: 364
7/4/2017
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Amsfield wrote:
Isaac Zienfried wrote:
Anarchy is merely oppression of the weak by the strong, after all. It's a tyranny in waiting.
Slight correction, I believe you meant 'government' there. Anarchy, by definition, isn't. Anarchy's just a new government waiting to happen. Human nature abhors a vacuum.
-- Isaac Zienfried, 'The Vacillating Belligerent.' A gentleman of complicated loyalties, complicated morality, and complicated goals. But really, it's hard to keep things simple down here!
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 Amsfield Posts: 176
7/4/2017
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Isaac Zienfried wrote:
Anarchy's just a new government waiting to happen. Human nature abhors a vacuum.
This probably isn't the place to debate the potential drawbacks and flaws with Anarchism as a political ideology (The Surface, at the very least, would be more appropriate) but...
Your logic here seems to be that 'anarchy is a government waiting to be happen=tyranny waiting to happen', therefore 'government=tyranny' which is my point, and would in fact make the period of anarchy between the only time that isn't, which was basically my point. Whether an anarchist system would be potentially sustainable is a different argument, and one which, again we should probably have else where if you're interested in continuing. If you are I'll brush up on my Goldman and Kropotkin.
(There is also a debate about whether government can be considered a state of nature, but again, another time and place.)
-- Amsfield: http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Amsfield A devotee of pleasures intellectual and fleshy. Always fabulously masked. Honoria Kastern: http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Honoria%20Kastern A hunter, a shooter and a fisher. Also a patriotic busy body. Mildly corrupted. Maiser: http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Maiser A young firebrand of obviously criminal intent. Venshik: http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Venshik Not a nice person. Asmeria: http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Asmeria Quiet, thoughtful and possibly mad. Excellent listener though. Favours grey.
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 Isaac Zienfried Posts: 364
7/4/2017
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Amsfield wrote:
therefore 'government=tyranny' which is my point Ah, gotcha. That's just a misunderstanding because I wasn't thorough. I was simply stating that the more, er, "organic" governments that tend to spring out of a complete anarchy trend more toward tyranny than those that have evolved over a good deal of time, because they're usually instituted via force. The one guy with the weapons and the followers decides other people ought to pay tribute to him for protection, etc.
-- Isaac Zienfried, 'The Vacillating Belligerent.' A gentleman of complicated loyalties, complicated morality, and complicated goals. But really, it's hard to keep things simple down here!
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 Anne Auclair Posts: 2215
7/4/2017
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Barse wrote:
Last year, you were not so much a Bishop supporter as an anti-Jenny campaigner, writing many strongly-worded and lengthy polemics against her and her principles over the course of not just the election, but her entire term. *hand wave* The Bishop of Southwark also spent her whole term plotting against the Mayor, but at Jenny's final ball he and the Mayor had a number of delightful sherries together. Sister Lydia spent Jenny's whole term sulking and planning her exit, but she's decided to keep to working for her. Huffam and his Gazette also on rather unfriendly terms with Jenny throughout her term, but they're now working together against Feducci.
Anyway, like them, I've decided I was somewhat wrong about her. It is pretty ironic though, her main critics fighting to preserve her legacy. But that's politics for you.
It is worth mentioning that if I wanted above all to humiliate Jenny and pull her legacy up by the roots, I'd be supporting Feducci. And if I wanted above all to investigate Jenny's administration for corruption, I'd be supporting the Detective. So, if you or your character is a Jenny supporter who is voting for either Feducci or the Detective, you might want to give your vote a serious rethink. The Campaigner's election means Jenny leaves office a successful Mayor. The election of Feducci or the Detective means that Jenny leaves office a failure. . edited by Anne Auclair on 7/4/2017
-- http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Anne%20Auclair
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 A Dimness Posts: 613
7/4/2017
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Barselaar wrote:
although I must admit I am concerned at her turning a blind eye to the actions of her grandson, who threatens to undermine her whole campaign Wait, how are the Young Stags undermining her? I'm pretty sure the flash-lay explained that the Young Stags, in fact, are working as some sort of security force for the Honey-Well, which is why Chuffy says that even though they fight like braying asses, he'll still stand by her. I'm fairly certain they aren't undermining her, but assisting her. "No one seems concerned about your descent" None at the offices are worried that you're going down to the Honey-Well. "At the foot of the stairs is a line of dishevelled young men." The Young Stags are guarding any intruders from entry with a quite literal wall of bodies. "Her Upstairs and I argue like braying asses, but she taught me the best of what I know. No one'll come near if we're here. Mum's the word. Or Grandmum." Chuffy explains that even though he and his grandmother don't get along quite well, he's still extremely loyal to her. edited by Infinity Simulacrum on 7/4/2017
-- A truth so strange it can only be lied into existence
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 Isaac Zienfried Posts: 364
7/4/2017
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That does warm my heart. Chuffy may be a hooligan and a troublemaker, but at least he knows who really looks out for him. Or something along those lines. edited by Isaac Zienfried on 7/4/2017
-- Isaac Zienfried, 'The Vacillating Belligerent.' A gentleman of complicated loyalties, complicated morality, and complicated goals. But really, it's hard to keep things simple down here!
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 Barse Posts: 706
7/4/2017
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Having been met with a *handwave* after my last post - which I put a fair amount of time into and will leave as it stands and comment no further on - I'm currently disinclined to go through echoes and records to find exact examples to point at, but as a member of the Young Stags (I really should change that - it's hardly fitting) and having played through the Seven Day Reign, I am under no illusions as to what and who the Young Stags are.
To pick a pertinent example, just as Feducci's naysayers may (possibly quite correctly) assume that, as a cheater, killer and opportunist, he will act in such a manner if given a position of responsibility, I am quite certain that the Young Stags, as a group of young, rich bohemians, will act in a drunken, debauched and disorderly fashion if given a position of responsibility over the largest repository in the city of the city's most notorious drug. Regardless, perhaps, of Chuffy's good intentions (he seems a stalwart fellow).
In any case, scrutiny of the Campaigner wasn't the main point of my post, and hence that tangential remark is not one I'm prepared to devote much time to defending - it's simply my feelings on the proclivities of the Honey Well's "guardians". Other people's mileages, and interpretations, may of course vary; I was simply communicating a minor misgiving.
I'll likely return now to my cautious skirting of the forums until the event is over - I'm not a fan of conflict, however mild - but I'm in-game or on the IRC. Good luck to the Campaigner and everyone involved! She'd make a fine mayor. edited by Barse on 7/4/2017
--
The Scorched Sailor, up for most social actions and RP. Not as scary as he looks.
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