LillianAranach
Posts: 45
6/27/2017
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Many drugs such as alcohol are not inherently malign. Certainly if you get blackout drunk on the regular, your liver will suffer the dire consequences. If, however, you occasionally drink a glass of wine with dinner, the negative long-term effects are little to none. In fact, some believe such a practice can help with some heart problems. It is, how you say, a case of: "guns don't kill people; people kill people." Alcohol can definitely kill you, but only if you use it in a particular and irresponsible way.
Now, I am sure you are more concerned with those uses of addictive substance that teeter on the borders of moderation. For example, getting blackout drunk on rare occassion. Still, in these cases where worrying over the negative social and physical consequences is legitimate, I tend towards leaving it to individual responsibility. It is perfectly plausible to enjoy yourself in this way without becoming addicted - just as it is possible to indulge in large quantities of food at a feast without becoming a binge eater. I would rather leave it up to the person to temper themselves than restrict the sale of the recreational item all together (because even if that person can't temper themselves many others can). Personal temperance, at least as described above, is, by the way, bolstered by proper education on how to use potentially dangerous substances safely, not restriction and demonization.
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They say, "There is a delightfully delectable corruption about Aranach, and she seeks to spread it, all the while revelling in truth and sin in equal parts."
http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Lillian%20Aranach
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Anne Auclair
Posts: 2215
6/27/2017
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Personal temperance is not working in London though. If it were working we wouldn't be where we are now, would we?
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http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Anne%20Auclair
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IHNIWTR
Posts: 346
6/27/2017
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I can't believe I'm supporting the campaigner, but there you have it
the explanatory text on her card absolutely won me over
[spoiler]The Dauntless Temperance Campaigner tears herself away from a brisk conversation with a member of Humble Order of Mudlarkers and Steeplejacks to answer your questions.
"I have dedicated my life to fighting exploitation. Yes, I've fought the honey-pushers, who addict dreamers, and the drink-dealers who poison mothers and fathers. But I'm here to fight the factory-owners, the landlords, the bankers who drive our citizens into such harmful escapes. We must help the addled and afflicted, provide houses of respite and healing. And tea. I am in favour of tea." She smiles and gives you a firm handshake, before marching away to menace a notoriously unscrupulous landlord.[/spoiler]
I'd take housing for the poor over speculative investment and more brutal policing any day
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https://www.fallenlondon.com/profile/Daniel%20Vaise
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LillianAranach
Posts: 45
6/27/2017
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I would be indubitably grateful to the campaigner if she were proposing to provide instructions on how to use drugs in moderation. In fact, I think a system of limitation, similar perhaps to driver's licenses, in which users had to prove their knowledge of how to and ability to use drugs properly and in moderation before being allowed to purchase them, and in which abusers would have their access to the substances revoked, would be wonderful even. But unfortunately the campaigner instead seeks to paint our diverse society with a broad brush in which no one can be trusted to contain themselves and so all must be barred from their pleasures.
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They say, "There is a delightfully delectable corruption about Aranach, and she seeks to spread it, all the while revelling in truth and sin in equal parts."
http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Lillian%20Aranach
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Anne Auclair
Posts: 2215
6/27/2017
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LillianAranach wrote:
I would be indubitably grateful to the campaigner if she were proposing to provide instructions on how to use drugs in moderation. In fact, I think a system of limitation, similar perhaps to driver's licenses, in which users had to prove their knowledge of how to and ability to use drugs properly and in moderation before being allowed to purchase them, and in which abusers would have their access to the substances revoked, would be wonderful even. But unfortunately the campaigner instead seeks to paint our diverse society with a broad brush in which no one can be trusted to contain themselves and so all must be barred from their pleasures.
No one is being barred from pleasures, only gently discouraged. And imagine that, a veteran reformer advocating easily understood reforms and ideas, as opposed to trying to create a system that would be expensive, bureaucratic, fiendishly complicated, and punitive. Once again we have the suggestion that we should police people, not commodities. For the sake of the commodities freedom, human freedom should be sacrificed.
edited by Anne Auclair on 6/27/2017
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http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Anne%20Auclair
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LillianAranach
Posts: 45
6/27/2017
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Anne Auclair wrote:
No one is being barred from pleasures, only gently discouraged. And imagine that, a veteran reformer advocating easily understood reforms and ideas, as opposed to trying to create a system that would be expensive, bureaucratic, fiendishly complicated, and punitive. Once again we have the suggestion that we should police people, not commodities. For the sake of the commodities freedom, human freedom should be sacrificed.
Only as fiendishly complicated and bureaucratic as any other privilege that requires a license. I should think such a system would be a boon to human freedom; after all, knowledge is power, especially knowledge that allows one to make responsible decisions with delectable rewards.
Regardless, I would have to know for certain how far the Dauntless Campaigner is going to push the temperance movement. As you have made quite clear, she has never indicated outright that she was going to advocate for complete prohibition, but I inexplicably feel as though she'll go that way. As long as I, and any other hedonist, may still choose to openly indulge with the same amount of or even a little more scandal, I shall be content. The scandal is half the fun anyway. If, however, she means to away my freedom to do as I please as long as I understand and accept the consequences, I will be raising quite the fuss.
I must say I have been enjoying the conversation. The only thing more delicious than sin is truth, truth being found in abundance in open debates. Regretfully, though, the hour grows late, and I must retire to my apartments. I look forward to continuing our discussion as soon as possible. Goodnight, delicious friend.
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They say, "There is a delightfully delectable corruption about Aranach, and she seeks to spread it, all the while revelling in truth and sin in equal parts."
http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Lillian%20Aranach
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IHNIWTR
Posts: 346
6/27/2017
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let me put it like this
would you prefer an old lady with pamphlets waiting outside a honey den, or an officer with a truncheon bursting in
because that's the choice here
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https://www.fallenlondon.com/profile/Daniel%20Vaise
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Sir Joseph Marlen
Posts: 575
6/27/2017
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Anne Auclair wrote:
LillianAranach wrote:
I would be indubitably grateful to the campaigner if she were proposing to provide instructions on how to use drugs in moderation. In fact, I think a system of limitation, similar perhaps to driver's licenses, in which users had to prove their knowledge of how to and ability to use drugs properly and in moderation before being allowed to purchase them, and in which abusers would have their access to the substances revoked, would be wonderful even. But unfortunately the campaigner instead seeks to paint our diverse society with a broad brush in which no one can be trusted to contain themselves and so all must be barred from their pleasures.
No one is being barred from pleasures, only gently discouraged. And imagine that, a veteran reformer advocating easily understood reforms and ideas, as opposed to trying to create a system that would be expensive, bureaucratic, fiendishly complicated, and punitive. Once again we have the suggestion that we should police people, not commodities. For the sake of the commodities freedom, human freedom should be sacrificed.
edited by Anne Auclair on 6/27/2017
You and I can both agree that nothing, for better or worse, is gentle about the Campaigner save for her good-natured heart. Also, is it so restrictive to educate people on what they're using and how best to take part in them as safely as possible. I don't believe Lillian is saying that the drugs aren't an issue (although please correct me if I'm wrong, Lillian), but rather that blaming the issue solely on the substance is too broad of a statement. It covers some of it, sure, but there's more to it.
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Sir Joseph Marlen - The Romantic Sophist
Alexus Harven - The Defiant Fatalist
Rose Reinhelm - The Respectful Revolutionary
Cappuccino - The Perfidious Spycraft
Available for any and all social actions.
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Anne Auclair
Posts: 2215
6/27/2017
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Sir Joseph Marlen wrote:
You and I can both agree that nothing, for better or worse, is gentle about the Campaigner save for her good-natured heart.
Oh, I think she is incredibly gentle and has chosen the most gentle methods available. Any gentler and they wouldn't be effective. Yes the medicine might be a little strong, but sometimes it's the difficult to shallow stuff that's best for you. Is a mother who is trying to get her child to shallow his medicine any less gentle for giving him a scolding?
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http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Anne%20Auclair
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SeveredJoke
Posts: 171
6/27/2017
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Marlon JD humbly requests help in removing his nightmares so he may be a more effective campaigner for the cause. The Merry Gentlemen is becoming a frequent visitor and refuses my polite request for donations.
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Annabelle McAllister - Nemesis
Marlon JD - Bag a Legend
Suzi Bapsthwaite - Light Fingers
Delilah Moreo - Heart's Desire
Alexei Totkinder - Nemesis
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Dungerson
Posts: 44
6/27/2017
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IHNIWTR wrote:
let me put it like this
would you prefer an old lady with pamphlets waiting outside a honey den, or an officer with a truncheon bursting in
because that's the choice here
Well, right now there are no officers with truncheons bursting into honey dens, though, because honey is legal. If the old lady with pamphlets comes into power, surely the chance that she'd use the truncheon-officer for this purpose will be much higher? (Otherwise, how else will she stop them from selling honey?)
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http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/profile/Dungerson
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IHNIWTR
Posts: 346
6/27/2017
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the kind old lady is about changing societal norms
the mean old lady is about changing laws
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https://www.fallenlondon.com/profile/Daniel%20Vaise
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James Sinclair
Posts: 253
6/27/2017
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Campaigner here. Donations are urgently needed for the Implacable Detective's campaign! Contact me in-game if you are willing to donate.
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James Sinclair
Curator of the Sanguine Ribbon Society 🗡
 A fully-fledged rêveur of The Night Circus.
Wines is red
Spices is yellow
But old Jack-of-Smiles
Is a murderous fellow
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Mycroft Tennyson
Posts: 29
6/27/2017
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It has come to my attention that Nigel Overstreet is offering up his vote to whoever can persuade him. As he is a fairly prominent and advanced player I would strongly advocate attempting to recruit him. I have noticed however, that there is a deeply saddening lack of support for the Implacable Detective, and I feel unable to argue at the level of discourse present, for it requires deep knowledge of the lore. For these reasons, I am attempting to notify allies of the Detective of the existence of this thread.
The link is as follows: http://community.failbettergames.com/topic24342-undecided-sell-me-on-your-candidate.aspx
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http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Mycroft%20Tennyson
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A Dimness
Posts: 613
6/27/2017
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I can't help but note people arguing against the Dauntless Temperance Campaigner's drug policies resort to the "You're punishing moderate users" argument.
There are usually 4 main recognized groups of substance abusers.
1. Experimental users, first-contact groups, usually young and tend to stop after a while, or even after first use.
2. Recreational users, used for enjoyment, this is what most of the player characters would fall under.
3. Dependent users, this is the Dauntless Temperance Campaign's target demographic: people who are too far in to stop by themselves.
4. Abstainers, people who've never used the substance or haven't been using for a considerably long amount of time.
While it's true that they might be influenced, recreational and experimentational users are completely peripheral to the Dauntless Temperate Campaign's platform. The Campaigner wants to tackle dependency because of its negative influence on the poor and its ties to organized crime. There's no concrete information yet on whether she plans to impose complete abstenance on honey, but it's foolish to assume she does and fallacious to use as argument. Don't forget that while dependency users are generally a minority overall, they are always the group that spends the most money on the substance itself. Tackling the addicts is the best way to put a dent in the honey-industry.
To summarize: if you want an image of the Dauntless Temperance Campaigner's true enemies- picture the rookeries and honey-dens, not the bohemian soirées.
Now, whether her method of choice is effective, that's a whole 'nother discussion. I don't really giving money to honey suppliers is in any way smart.
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A truth so strange it can only be lied into existence
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Anne Auclair
Posts: 2215
6/27/2017
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LillianAranach wrote:
Anne Auclair wrote:
No one is being barred from pleasures, only gently discouraged. And imagine that, a veteran reformer advocating easily understood reforms and ideas, as opposed to trying to create a system that would be expensive, bureaucratic, fiendishly complicated, and punitive. Once again we have the suggestion that we should police people, not commodities. For the sake of the commodities freedom, human freedom should be sacrificed.
Only as fiendishly complicated and bureaucratic as any other privilege that requires a license. I should think such a system would be a boon to human freedom; after all, knowledge is power, especially knowledge that allows one to make responsible decisions with delectable rewards.
Consider all the complexity inherent in such a system. What is the criteria for determining if someone is a responsible as opposed to irresponsible user? How do you ensure they continue to act responsibly after receiving their licenses? How do you deal with those licensed individuals who break trust and act irresponsibly? How do you deal with people with licenses buying gin/honey for people who have been denied licenses? How do you deal with fake licenses? How do you stop people without licenses from getting their fix on the black market? How do you prevent those with power from abusing the licensing system to their benefit?
The ultimate answer is that you need a capricious police state of bureaucrats and constables to keep tabs on everyone. It would also impose prohibition on quite a few people (which is kinda funny as you say the specter of prohibition is why you're concerned with the DTC) .
It's much easier, and far more respectful of human freedom, to simply discourage everyone from using the products in question through regulation, welfare legislation and persuasion. You can't stop people from making bad life decisions, but you can discourage them from doing so, and help them when they want to change.
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http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Anne%20Auclair
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Akernis
Posts: 255
6/27/2017
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Infinity Simulacrum wrote:
There are usually 4 main recognized groups of substance abusers.
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4. Abstainers, people who've never used the substance or haven't been using for a considerably long amount of time.
I know it isn't really relevant to the point you were making, but are you saying that people who have never used the substance falls into one of the categories of substance abusers? How does that make any sense?
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Vena's profile - http://fallenlondon.com/Profile/Akernis
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A Dimness
Posts: 613
6/27/2017
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Akernis wrote:
Infinity Simulacrum wrote:
There are usually 4 main recognized groups of substance abusers.
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4. Abstainers, people who've never used the substance or haven't been using for a considerably long amount of time.
I know it isn't really relevant to the point you were making, but are you saying that people who have never used the substance falls into one of the categories of substance abusers? How does that make any sense?
I guess it's a case of poorly expressing myself, but there's a difference between people who simply don't use because they don't care, and people who don't use because they're actively against it. I suppose I should rather call it 'Four demographics with a concrete position on substance abuse.'
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A truth so strange it can only be lied into existence
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Dungerson
Posts: 44
6/27/2017
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Well, so far I'm not quite sure how the DTC is going to pursue her many goals, and to what extent, really. My concern is that at some point, she's going to need to put down some rules and regulations concerning the honey trade (she is, right?), and she will need the Constables to enforce them as well. And as we all know, our constabulary is corrupt, inefficient, and undependable.
Much as the DTC's goal is noble, I think reforming the law enforcement and making it serve the common public instead of a select few takes precedence. Kind words and a good heart do go a long way in changing the world, but they can just go so far by themselves - and in a city that's menaced by countless threats, both shapeless and properly corporeal, I believe that it's about time we have a proper protector.
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http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/profile/Dungerson
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Lawrence Eclipse
Posts: 4
6/28/2017
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Well, I feel I'm a tad late to the discussion, but I have something to add.
Anne Auclair accused the Detective of planning to restrict freedom, which is false -at least as I see freedom.
MY freedom will be restricted, sure. Maybe also hers. But hwat about the weak, the poor? To ensure their freedom we need firm laws. Freedom of laws only helps the powerful, because everyone one needs to fight for his or her freedom themselves.
I was planning on working for the Campaigner in the beginning -as a lesser evil- before the Detective came in. And now I'm happy I did not because there are unsettling rumours of the Campaigners ties to the anarchists. The people that want to abolish the rules and laws that protect our society.
I agree that we need to improve the laws, but the wrong order is always better than no order at all.
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http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/profile/Lawrence%20Eclipse
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