Siankan
Posts: 1048
6/3/2017
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I think the question of whether Renown is frustrating (post-conversion, I mean; I'm not touching pre-conversion grinds) comes down to a matter of attitude. If you're trying to grind Renown the way people try to grind Echoes, then yes, you are going to be frustrated, because you're working against the setup. You're trying to tame something that's essentially random, so yes, it isn't going to be fun; it's like looking out the window every ten minutes trying to see a meteor. Enough days of that and anyone's sanity's going to crack. On the other hand, a meteor is a lot of fun if you're outside anyway and happen to see it. In the same way, if you treat it as lagniappe, an extra bonus that comes while you're doing other things, then it's a lot more enjoyable.
There's still a lot of personal decision that goes into it: which pet to choose, how to lean in conflict or other cards, whether to spend favors or hoard them for conversion. Unlike connections, nobody's getting up to high renown on accident; it's always a deliberate choice to spend your resources to improve your standing, rather than on something else. If you take it how it's intended to be taken, I think the system offers a lot of potential - and at least the Brass Embassy doesn't forget who you are just because they did something for you.
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Prof. Sian Kan, at your service.
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MidnightVoyager
Posts: 858
6/3/2017
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Siankan wrote:
I think the question of whether Renown is frustrating (post-conversion, I mean; I'm not touching pre-conversion grinds) comes down to a matter of attitude. If you're trying to grind Renown the way people try to grind Echoes, then yes, you are going to be frustrated, because you're working against the setup. You're trying to tame something that's essentially random, so yes, it isn't going to be fun; it's like looking out the window every ten minutes trying to see a meteor. Enough days of that and anyone's sanity's going to crack. On the other hand, a meteor is a lot of fun if you're outside anyway and happen to see it. In the same way, if you treat it as lagniappe, an extra bonus that comes while you're doing other things, then it's a lot more enjoyable.
I feel like I might be less frustrated with the system if I started playing after every single connection was converted over. It probably would work fine if that's how things worked from the start. But I've done all the exceptional stories and all the nonexceptional stories and all the fate stories. With an Overgoat and an Ubergoat, there's no idle grind left that has a goal that feels reachable... except the one that's just been hung up in front of me, renown. And renown is USED for things, will probably be used for more in the future, so it's not just window dressing.
I don't really have any choice but "start grinding now so that maybe I might have at least 10 in all of them by the time I might have a need for it" or "be caught off-guard later and need to start an unreliable RNG grind to unlock something".
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Midnight Voyager - A blood-cousin to predators. Collector of beasts. Affably mad.
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Artful
Posts: 48
6/3/2017
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Ben wrote:
quick but important question.
If this was your first time, starting from scratch, how long would it take you to grind 40 renoun?
As a stat-capped POSI, it took me about 3 months to grind Rubbery 40 from 0. I only used the rubbery faction card and the Rubbery Entrepreneur from the Polite Invitation party.
Was it "worth it"? Nearly impossible to say.
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A Penultimate Paramount Presence waiting for the ability to overcap stats before crossing the threshold.
http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Artful
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maleclypse
Posts: 259
6/3/2017
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I think that renown should have more long term impact. If only like in Dirigible theft where a useful card is representing access only an underworld dweller could have. It's a constant reminder and reward for my reputation when even if I'm not using a criminal renown item. And it fits the theme of me being able to either burn a favor to not help or gain a favor by helping my peers.
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Maintaining a controlling interest in my soul requires a pretty constant negotiation between the various shareholder interests. Thankfully the Fingerkings 23% control makes a pretty good foil to unite the other factions enough to get to 51%.
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dov
Posts: 2580
6/3/2017
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Renown fails as a narrative device in every way:
- It doesn't grow organically with interactions with the faction, so it has no narrative and role play connection to player choices.
- But even if it did (e.g. gain Renown: Hell by robbing the Brass Embassy) it sill makes no sense from a narrative perspective. All the branch unlocks are implicitly assuming that Renown represents how close you are to the faction (why would they give you unique items for being really well known to work against them??). So all the branch unlocks for Renown, really make narrative sense if this quality is not about being *known* but about being *respected* by the faction (you know, like the old Connected).
Suppose FBG had only added Favours on top of the the Connected system, and left anything else Connected related alone. Now: what does switching to Renown even add/improve? If you just want a new way to use branch unlocks and fix the issue of some people raising their Connected to extremes, just reset with a conversion to a new quality (e.g." Respected") which behaves like Connected (i.e. can go up and down with every interaction with the faction, up to possible gradual caps).
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edited by dov on 6/3/2017
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Amalgamate
Posts: 435
6/3/2017
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I think the thing with renown is there's no middle ground between "grind it in a boring way" and "ignore it". Like, with other qualities, like Connected or quirks or items or anything else, you get the following situations:
1) If you actively avoid it, you can avoid it.
2) If you just play normally, you'll probably slowly gain qualities and items and things as you play.
3) If you want to get the value really high, you have to grind it by finding the best source and repeating over and over.
But with renown, there's only one source, and it's an out-of-the-way option: a single trade-in on an item that otherwise was pretty useless. So there's no middle ground - either you forget all about that option and never get *any* renown with a faction (no matter how much you interact with them!) or you say fine, and just start grinding it (remembering to go back to that option each time you accumulate favors).
It would be less tedious if there were other sources of renown, potentially capped? Like, maybe you can get to 5 at the carnival, and playing other renown-related stories can get you some renown up to some other cap. Nothing wrong with having the high levels require grinding, but right now all renown gain from 5 up is the same grind.
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Pnakotic
Posts: 266
6/3/2017
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I like the new system better, though I wish there were more good reasons to cash in favors besides building renown. It's kidna easy to build upo renown even for factions you don't hae a lot of interest in just because you have all the favors floating round.
The "cannot be discarded" cards get kind of annoying, too, when you're sitting on five or six favors with a faction you actually want to build up.
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J. Ward Dunn, Glassman
Book of All Hours 9:99: Journey's end in lover's meeting. Progress is ascendancy.
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Rysiek
Posts: 693
6/3/2017
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I myself, prefered the old connected, as they were easier to grind at the carnival, so getting mysteries was easier, as I saw while trying to get the Hotel room. However, favours make getting jobs simpler. It is just renown pissing me off sometimes. Like, with the carnival grinds. Even, though I like it from a narrative POV, renown made certain aspects of the game a lot more difficult.
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The silesian Detective
http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Rysiek
The incredible Warsovian. She certainly didn't steal your diamond necklace. That idea is RIDICULOUS...
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Oh, and by the way, I am not polish, I am GERMAN to clarify for heavens sake... tylko po polsku mowie. Um Himmelswillen...
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Gillsing
Posts: 1203
6/3/2017
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dov wrote:
All the branch unlocks are implicitly assuming that Renown represents how close you are to the faction (why would they give you unique items for being really well known to work against them??).
In all fairness, those items cost Favours, so obviously you've been doing something for them lately. Certainly not robbed their embassy. Well, not too recently anyway, since that would've removed all those Favours. Though obviously losing all Connected to: Hell worked much better as a punishment in this regard, since it made it too costly for someone with enough Connected to: Hell to gain Renown: Hell 50 through the recent conversion.
And as a devil's advocate I could make a case for Renown unlocking unique items. Someone with high Renown is important, and has done much for the faction (either by having high connection before the conversion, or by donating many, many Favours). And when someone important does something bad, they become infamous, but no less important. So once the infamous person does something beneficial for the faction again (gaining up to seven Favours), it would be recognised by more people within the faction, as they pay attention to the important person. And I don't see why this couldn't lead to certain benefits, either because individuals within the faction disagreeing on the importance of certain misdeeds, or because certain members would want to sway the important person back to their side, or even perceive the latest beneficial activity as a sign that the important person is still on their side.
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Estelle Knoht
Posts: 1751
6/3/2017
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I try to hit 50 before the conversion mostly because I don't like having to grind to see one paragraph of story (written like a big payoff) repeated over and over.
It gets awfully silly when you do this (Daring Feat with some striking detail) for (Faction of the week) 30 times in a row.
I wouldn't mind having some sort of mad-libs to the paragraph so at least I am not rescuing the same ship in the same way for all the Renown levels.
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Estelle Knoht, a juvenile, unreliable and respectable lady.
I currently do not accept any catbox, cider, suppers, calling cards or proteges.
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Siankan
Posts: 1048
6/3/2017
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Estelle Knoht wrote:
I wouldn't mind having some sort of mad-libs to the paragraph so at least I am not rescuing the same ship in the same way for all the Renown levels.
I grant you this. Some of these make more sense than others as a repeatable story, but it is unfortunate that 2/3 of the stories for each faction are completed very early. How many times is the Lovestruck Maenad going to get impounded, already?
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Prof. Sian Kan, at your service.
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Estelle Knoht
Posts: 1751
6/3/2017
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Siankan wrote:
Estelle Knoht wrote:
I wouldn't mind having some sort of mad-libs to the paragraph so at least I am not rescuing the same ship in the same way for all the Renown levels.
I grant you this. Some of these make more sense than others as a repeatable story, but it is unfortunate that 2/3 of the stories for each faction are completed very early. How many times is the Lovestruck Maenad going to get impounded, already?
Come to think of it, I can see a disaster in the works 
A [numbers] [container] of [random goods;evil snail things that cure gout] are delivered to the transport ship. They contain [random Bazaar item #1], [random Bazaar item #2], [random Bazaar item #3], and – [adverb] concealed – yourself and [number] of your most trusted accomplices.
On the ship's first night at zee you slip from your [container]. Your group [verb for movement] [adverb] across the decks: [number[ split off to subdue patrols, one acts as lookout, and you forge below and free [amount] of prisoner on the ship. Stealing a [random object], you row back to the [random location], where a fleet of [transportation] waits to whisk you away. The escape is the talk of the [random tavern's name].
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Estelle Knoht, a juvenile, unreliable and respectable lady.
I currently do not accept any catbox, cider, suppers, calling cards or proteges.
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Kukapetal
Posts: 1449
6/3/2017
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Well, the cards and such that used to increase your connected had the same stories over and over. If there was a carousel for grinding favors that would have the same story over and over too. How is this any different?
Also, wow, I actually need Renown: Hell at 10 before I can grind for souls. This is a bit of a dilemma for a soul shepherd...
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dov
Posts: 2580
6/3/2017
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Gillsing wrote:
dov wrote:
All the branch unlocks are implicitly assuming that Renown represents how close you are to the faction (why would they give you unique items for being really well known to work against them??).
In all fairness, those items cost Favours, so obviously you've been doing something for them lately. Certainly not robbed their embassy. Well, not too recently anyway, since that would've removed all those Favours. Though obviously losing all Connected to: Hell worked much better as a punishment in this regard, since it made it too costly for someone with enough Connected to: Hell to gain Renown: Hell 50 through the recent conversion.
And as a devil's advocate I could make a case for Renown unlocking unique items. Someone with high Renown is important, and has done much for the faction (either by having high connection before the conversion, or by donating many, many Favours).
You assume that a high Renown means you've done a lot of Favours for that faction, since this is how you raise it now. This might be true mechanically (for now) but that's not the case from a narrative perspective (which was my point).
Renown is meant to be a representation of how known you are to the faction, for good or ill. Theoretically you can get Renown: Criminals sky-high by murdering thieves left and right on the street (not a mechanic currently implemented, of course, but I'm talking about the narrative implications). As such, it makes no sense for them to give you special items just because you've collected a handful of Favours once (and note that the requirements for those items are not the Favours - those are just the cost - but the high Renown). The same can be said for other branches unlocked with Renown (not just for the items).
Also, note how you yourself have described what high Renown means to you: "someone important, has has done much for the faction". That doesn't sound like a definition for being well known to the faction for good or ill. It sounds more like a measure of how often you've helped them, how much they favour you, how close you are to them, or indeed how Connected you are to them.
In short, the narrative implications are already those of old Connected (except that Renown doesn't rise and fall naturally). So why even use Renown? Why pretend that this quality makes narrative sense?
What advantage does the Renown/Favoures system has over a Connected/Favours system?
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Want a sip of Hesperidean Cider? Send me a request in-game. Here's an_ocelot's guide how.
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Harlocke
Posts: 506
6/3/2017
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Kukapetal wrote:
Well, the cards and such that used to increase your connected had the same stories over and over. If there was a carousel for grinding favors that would have the same story over and over too. How is this any different?
Also, wow, I actually need Renown: Hell at 10 before I can grind for souls. This is a bit of a dilemma for a soul shepherd...
As a fellow shepherd, I justify friendly dealings with hell a clever deception to hide my anti-spirifer activites.
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Gillsing
Posts: 1203
6/3/2017
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dov wrote:
Theoretically you can get Renown: Criminals sky-high by murdering thieves left and right on the street (not a mechanic currently implemented, of course, but I'm talking about the narrative implications).
But isn't that just your interpretation? I don't remember reading anything about that when Renown was first introduced. I choose to interpret FBGs intentions based on their actions, and since they don't award Renown for becoming a faction's worst enemy, I'm going to assume that they never intended to have Renown work that way. Apparently FBG wanted a single permanent tracker for a character's involvement with a faction, so then they had to make up some reason for why someone who might start working against a faction would still retain their Renown, without having to change it into some other quality. So in my opinion that's why Renown is a measure of your celebrity or notoriety or both.
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Kukapetal
Posts: 1449
6/3/2017
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Harlocke wrote:
As a fellow shepherd, I justify friendly dealings with hell a clever deception to hide my anti-spirifer activites.
Right but you have to like, convince the devils to take your friend's soul to raise renown, or even to just get rid of favors you gained raising it at the carnival, and as a soul shepherd, I can't condone such activities :P
Guess I'll have to wait for a conflict card to get rid of some of these favors
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dov
Posts: 2580
6/3/2017
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Gillsing wrote:
dov wrote:
Theoretically you can get Renown: Criminals sky-high by murdering thieves left and right on the street (not a mechanic currently implemented, of course, but I'm talking about the narrative implications).
But isn't that just your interpretation? I don't remember reading anything about that when Renown was first introduced.
It's from the original announcement thread (and subsequent discussion):
http://community.failbettergames.com/topic20369-favours-and-renown.aspx
Specifically:
Flyte wrote:
Your Renown represents the extent to which you are known to members of the Connected group: it's a measure of your celebrity or notoriety or both. It can go up, but it won't go down
And:
Flyte wrote:
Renown measures how well-known you are. We won't be tracking whether that Renown is celebrity, notoriety, envy, adoration, or something altogether more complicated – we'll leave that to you, the player.
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genesis
Posts: 924
6/3/2017
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If I recall correctly, there was talk at the time that there will also be an overhaul of how Turncoat menace works and that the combination of Renown/Turncoat would be able to differentiate between fame and infamy
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Keeping track of incomplete content and loose ends in Fallen London
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Optimatum
Posts: 3666
6/3/2017
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Re: Renown representing both positive and negative interactions, I think it's entirely possible for there to be contexts in which raising Renown through negative interactions makes narrative sense. To play devil's advocate (heh), in the oft-used original example of unsuccessfully robbing the Brass Embassy, I bet that the devils would be impressed by someone having the gall to try. (See the failure for stealing Souls through Unfinished Business.) This wouldn't make sense uniformly, like getting thrown in jail that way probably wouldn't impress the Constables, but that just means each faction needs to be personalized.
Of course, it could also be possible to raise Renown through negative interactions with a different faction. For example, failing to rob the Brass Embassy might not give Renown: Hell, but give a bunch of Renown: Church instead.
Kukapetal wrote:
Well, the cards and such that used to increase your connected had the same stories over and over. If there was a carousel for grinding favors that would have the same story over and over too. How is this any different?
In one case, you see the same stories over and over to increase Connected across a bunch of different cards and storylets, on top of all the unique storylines increasing Connected that you can only play once. In the other case, you see the same stories over and over as you increase Renown, except these repeated stories are a couple paragraphs across three options on a single item (and you'll only see one story repeated at a given time).
There's a big difference between:
1. Seeing the same stories repeated simultaneously across many different contexts, and
2. Seeing the same story repeated over and over in one context, then seeing a different story repeated over and over in that same context, and then seeing a third story repeated over and over and over and over in the exact same context
edited by Optimatum on 6/3/2017
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