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Current Renown Gain method is monotonous Messages in this topic - RSS

Rostygold
Rostygold
Posts: 346

6/2/2017
dov wrote:
But Renown does not do what it set out to do. The only way to raise this (except the first 5 levels) is by clicking repeatedly on an item in your inventory. As such, raising Renown is nothing but a grind, and has no connection to any RP. (and remember that the original intent was to have this represent how famous and/or infamous you are to a faction).

Optimatum wrote:
But the Favours and Renown system wasn't billed as providing difficult achievements for end-game players. The system has to accommodate players of all types, and right now, it doesn't. Favours work well as they are; regularly gaining and spending them is far more interesting than having and ignoring a high level of Connected. They're mechanically useful and allow for more interesting narration.

Renown, on the other hand, just does not work well for anybody in its current form. Before now, newer players might run up against an action that for example required Connected 10 to some particular faction. Figure out how to interact with the faction a little, and suddenly that new option opens up. Now, an option that required Connected 10 might require Renown 10. A newer player trying to unlock that option has to figure out where Renown comes from, acquire the necessary cash, then sit around waiting to draw the right cards. Meanwhile endgame players grinding Renown can't actively do anything towards their goal; they have to just sit back and hope they get lucky with cards.

The issue with Renown is that there's nothing besides the grind. Unlike with Connected, your character's choices are irrelevant here and playing through stories is useless. We only get a slow trickle of Favours, so why make us spend them all (plus a steady influx of cash) to make any progress here? Limiting Favours to cards makes sense since they're so profitable, but why so with Renown? In my opinion, Renown should behave like quirks. Mundane options like selling Casing to the Constables would have low caps, harder and more unusual options like failing to rob the Brass Embassy would have medium caps, very difficult or one-time options like assisting in the Battle of Wolfstack Docks would have high caps or none at all. That way it would be possible to actually do something to grind Renown, even if it was difficult and slow or only mattered at low levels.

I am quoting others because they are far more polite than I would be, having looked at my previous (now-redundant) draft to elaborate on this issue.

Long story short, there should be more opportunities to raise Renown other than just using a Faction item.

P.S. There are a lot of people here who would defend the status quo. I would say to them this: a few more revamps later, you won't see this the same way any more.
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An Individual
An Individual
Posts: 589

6/2/2017
Kukapetal wrote:
It's a grind, for high tier items and qualities. It's supposed to be monotonous/expensive/challenging. Wouldn't be nearly as impressive once you get there if you are just able to whip through it in a week or so.


I've done the Cider grind and I've ground Renown: Rubbery Men to 40. I don't think the monotony of the renown grind is the problem. The Cider grind was monotonous, but you could just keep chipping at it for 2 years until you get there. The frustration with Renown is that you can't do anything to actively pursue it. You just have to coast along doing something else and hope to pick up favors from random cards you draw. And your kind of restricted in what you're doing while trying to build up renown because leaving London or going to any place where you can't draw opportunity cards only slows the process down further. I am, for example, hold off on Cider drunkenness because I want to maximize the number of possible favors cards I draw.

There is a separate discussion going on here as well; which is that Renown doesn't really behave as it was originally advertised. The original idea was to take connected, which represented both how well you were known by a faction and your sway with it, and split it into two qualities. One to track your ability to call on the faction for help/resources/whatever, and one that tracks how well you are known in the faction (both good and bad). Favors are working pretty well for that. I quite like them actually. Renown is not. Right now it's just a thing you can spend favors on with some stat capping so you can't rush it in the early part of the game.

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Optimatum
Optimatum
Posts: 3666

6/2/2017
An Individual wrote:
There is a separate discussion going on here as well

I think it's time to start a third discussion besides: the constant escalation of the conversion rates from Connected to Renown has gotten ridiculous. Even back when Urchins was converted over to Renown, everyone was shocked by the increase to a conversion factor of 7, to needing Connected 371 for Renown 50. Now one conversion later, we have a 9:1 ratio for Hell and a 12:1 ratio for Constables. That means the Constables conversion is almost twice as harsh as the Urchins one!

What's even the point of all this? Does the rate of conversion really have to be based on how much Connected players tend to have? Apparently, players with C: Constables below 81 didn't even get any Renown at all. Why is a Connected of 81 supposed to be equivalent to Renown 5, which a brand new character can reach in under a day? Meanwhile a previously-minimal requirement of C: Hell 10 became R: Hell 10, aka a Bright Brass Skull plus 31 Favours minimum and various items.

Needing to spend weeks grinding up Connected to hit Renown 50 is bad enough on its own. Spending weeks grinding, to find out that the goalposts moved in the meantime and you were only halfway to the new target? It's just unpleasant. Half the frustration isn't even from how long the grinding is, it's from never knowing if all the hard work will even be enough.

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Plynkes
Plynkes
Posts: 631

6/2/2017
Jolanda Swan wrote:

This is a problem indeed. Many actions that used to raise connected and thus reflect your interaction with a faction, now don't. It takes away the flavor of the action itself.


Aye, for me the problem is not merely the grind (which is tedious enough), but the fact that it now feels almost entirely divorced from your story.

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Gul al-Ahlaam
Gul al-Ahlaam
Posts: 225

6/3/2017
It was my understanding that, once the system was fully implemented, it would be expanded, with opportunities to gain favor and especially renown added to the various storylines. The idea was, if I recall correctly, that favors would be available through opportunity cards, carousels, and one-time story events, and that renown would increase for completing stories involving the faction in question. For instance, completing Discernment might grant a boost to Renown: Hell, or solving the case of the Peculiar Glim-Sculptor might grant a boost to Renown: Rubbery Men. And so on. While I am perfectly content with the current system, I do hope this more complete integration eventually occurs, since currently the process of gaining renown and favors does feel slightly divorced from the process of progress through the story. Of course, I have great confidence that things will work out just perfectly! ^_^

EDIT: typos!

  • edited by Gul al-Ahlaam on 6/3/2017

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    Optimatum
    Optimatum
    Posts: 3666

    6/2/2017
    It is a grind, yes. Grinds are supposed to be all those things, yes. But should it really be a grind in the first place? The original description of Renown was that it would reflect your character's actions separately from tracking favors owed. Right now, it's only tracking how many times you drew the right cards and used an item.

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    Optimatum
    Optimatum
    Posts: 3666

    6/2/2017
    It may make sense in hindsight, but a conversion having almost twice the ratio of the previous record-holder is still a very nasty shock.

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    IgnatuStone
    IgnatuStone
    Posts: 208

    6/2/2017
    This may not be a popular opinion but, I like the system. It gives the cards in my deck more meaning. Previously I would discard most of them upon drawing them and get back to grinding echoes. Now I'm encouraged to purchase new lodgings and companions and interact with them in order to increase my connection with factions. Its a system that encourages me to explore new options and varies my game play.

    At this point in the game everything is a grind. At least this one provides some variety. I've decided not to grind any more connections. I want to experience the early stories from the first conversions. The reason this game mechanic has become unpopular is because it encourages us to grind connections in advance of the conversion. This is hands down the least interesting action in the game yet all the late stage players feel obligated to partake. For players who have been here a long time renown is unpopular because it remains the only significant and narrative interesting thing to do. Being forced to log on constantly to check an opportunity deck seems unfair as there is very little interesting content left in it.

    However we need to consider how it is for new players. For them its a kind of side quest which happens at the same time as you are experiencing all the new content. It makes the early content last longer and creates a sense of continuity between different levels of play. By the time you reach the late game you will have accumulated a significant amount of renown without even thinking about it.

    This is a good system, the problem is the implementation. Instead of encouraging this mad dash to accumulate the most renown before conversion day Failbetter should have completed all the content and implemented it in one fell swoop.
    edited by IgnatuStone on 6/2/2017

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    MidnightVoyager
    MidnightVoyager
    Posts: 858

    6/2/2017
    Kukapetal wrote:
    Well, I always looked at it as something you work toward as you play the game, not something that you specifically decide to say "I'm going to work on this today." So as you play, you draw the cards that give you the favors, just like, in game, you go abut your life and have random encounters with various factions that can affect your standing with them.

    So to me it feels like a representation of your character's life in-game.

    I had all my life in the game happen before it was a system, so it is slightly hard to see this way! And by slightly hard, I mean impossible. The conversion alone feels like it just punishes me for having played the game for a long time. The only way whatsoever to raise it now for me is to grind.

    It's annoying on the level with Notability, but at least it sticks around, I guess. (please god just let the last profession level come out, I never want to be notable again)

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    Amalgamate
    Amalgamate
    Posts: 435

    6/2/2017
    Kukapetal wrote:

    And I don't quite understand how Connected worked as a status marker but Renown does not. Not saying you're wrong about it, just saying I don't see the difference. Can you explain?
    edited by Kukapetal on 6/2/2017



    Before, as you just played through the game and interacted with factions, your Connected would go up and down. If you reunited a bunch of souls with their owners, your connected church/constables would be high. As you did a bunch of Society actions, your Society would go up. Etc. There were lots of storylets that would raise or lower your Connected qualities, depending on what kind of actions you take.

    Renown doesn't work like that. You could spend half the game restoring souls and never get any Renown for it. The only way to get Renown is either at the carnival, or by playing one specific storylet on a bazaar item. Everything else you do with a faction is ignored. It's just a grind with no RP interpretation.

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    Kukapetal
    Kukapetal
    Posts: 1449

    6/2/2017
    Well, I always looked at it as something you work toward as you play the game, not something that you specifically decide to say "I'm going to work on this today." So as you play, you draw the cards that give you the favors, just like, in game, you go abut your life and have random encounters with various factions that can affect your standing with them.

    So to me it feels like a representation of your character's life in-game. Most people aren't going to say "today I'm going to go around doing nice things for every rubberyman I see, in hopes they'll all start liking me." No most people would simply run into rubberymen as they go about their lives and if they consistently do nice things for them, eventually get a good reputation among them.

    And I don't quite understand how Connected worked as a status marker but Renown does not. Not saying you're wrong about it, just saying I don't see the difference. Can you explain?
    edited by Kukapetal on 6/2/2017
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    Jolanda Swan
    Jolanda Swan
    Posts: 1789

    6/2/2017
    Amalgamate wrote:

    Before, as you just played through the game and interacted with factions, your Connected would go up and down. If you reunited a bunch of souls with their owners, your connected church/constables would be high. As you did a bunch of Society actions, your Society would go up. Etc. There were lots of storylets that would raise or lower your Connected qualities, depending on what kind of actions you take.

    Renown doesn't work like that. You could spend half the game restoring souls and never get any Renown for it. The only way to get Renown is either at the carnival, or by playing one specific storylet on a bazaar item. Everything else you do with a faction is ignored. It's just a grind with no RP interpretation.


    This is a problem indeed. Many actions that used to raise connected and thus reflect your interaction with a faction, now don't. It takes away the flavor of the action itself.

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    suinicide
    suinicide
    Posts: 2409

    6/2/2017
    I think that conflict cards should give you some up to 10, and stories and such up to 25. Leaving the 50 item behind the faction item. That way you get the first two naturally (or with some help), but the only way to get the last is to REALLY show your devotion.
    (This would also give some people reason to play through rubbery murders :P)
    edited by suinicide on 6/2/2017

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    Yeah
    Yeah
    Posts: 67

    6/3/2017
    IgnatuStone wrote:

    However we need to consider how it is for new players. For them its a kind of side quest which happens at the same time as you are experiencing all the new content. It makes the early content last longer and creates a sense of continuity between different levels of play. By the time you reach the late game you will have accumulated a significant amount of renown without even thinking about it.
    edited by IgnatuStone on 6/2/2017


    As a fairly new player (started in early december), I don't really think this is true. I didn't even know about renown until mid January, when the Urchins conversion went through, and the notification was at the top of the Fallen London page. And money was pretty scarce for me back then, getting at best .4 echo an action, assuming i never failed the actions. It would've taken me three or four days to get enough money for just a single conversion item, which I then would've needed to put my favours into, which I would've much rather kept for potential future use. When I hit PoSI status, my highest renown was rubbery men, if I recall, which was still below ten. Even now, my highest renown is only seventeen. If renown items were cheaper, between 5-15 echoes, I could see a new player being able to get renown as they make their name through the game, but that major price cost was a massive hurdle on the beginning of my renown grind.

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    Jeremy Avalon
    Jeremy Avalon
    Posts: 345

    6/3/2017
    Put me down for the camp of "one-time stories should eventually be reworked to increase Renown up to certain caps" (because you shouldn't be able to grind, say, Renown 49 for Hell and then skip the effort of 50 by putting off becoming an Infernal Informant for *the entire game*).

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    Gonen
    Gonen
    Posts: 817

    6/3/2017
    OctaviaCrowe wrote:


    Hell? Reliable options? The hell card, the pet, and Burning Shadows.

    We need purchasable Hellish companions whose card allows you to gain favors.



    And Polite Invitation (3 Favours!), An afternoon of good deeds (Finally, something to do with that card), The Brass Embassy 5 lodging card.
    That is, actually, far more opportunities than urchins or tomb colonies or dock.
    Constables and Tomb Colonies are the hardest to gain, in my regard.
    edited by Gonen on 6/3/2017

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    An Individual
    An Individual
    Posts: 589

    6/3/2017
    MidnightVoyager wrote:
    But man, I look back over the years and all the connections I spent for basically no reason because they were useless and what I got from the connections I had left, and it's hard not to feel a little sore. I did stories connected with Hell and I got exactly 0 renown on conversion.


    I feel you. I literally spent the last year selling the devils about 40k echoes worth of souls and now don't even have enough renown to use the Unfinished Business that gives souls.

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    MidnightVoyager
    MidnightVoyager
    Posts: 858

    6/2/2017
    suinicide wrote:
    I think that conflict cards should give you some up to 10, and stories and such up to 25. Leaving the 50 item behind the faction item. That way you get the first two naturally (or with some help), but the only way to get the last is to REALLY show your devotion.
    (This would also give some people reason to play through rubbery murders :P)
    edited by suinicide on 6/2/2017

    That's probably how it should work from the start.

    But man, I look back over the years and all the connections I spent for basically no reason because they were useless and what I got from the connections I had left, and it's hard not to feel a little sore. I did stories connected with Hell and I got exactly 0 renown on conversion.

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    dov
    dov
    Posts: 2580

    6/2/2017
    Optimatum wrote:
    That means the Constables conversion is almost twice as harsh as the Urchins one!

    That's actually not too surprising.

    Grinding Constables could be done at 4 times the rate as grinding Connected: Urchins. And that's before taking into account Shepherds.

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    DonaghyLogan
    DonaghyLogan
    Posts: 205

    6/2/2017
    I do enjoy the limitation of Renown gain to card-drawing, as I'm the sort of player who gets bored with only one grind at a time. However, I do think that the Connected-Renown conversion is getting ridiculous. Perhaps Failbetter could not determine future conversions by the values players tend to have, but rather by the actions it would take one to grind to a certain level of connected? E.g. It takes about 7 actions to get one level of renown, so whatever level of connected one could obtain with 7 actions would translate to one level of renown?

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    Rostygold
    Rostygold
    Posts: 346

    6/2/2017
    DonaghyLogan wrote:
    ...so whatever level of connected one could obtain with 7 actions would translate to one level of renown?


    For better or worse, it would seem that Failbetter does this case-by-case, specifically through looking at the average level of Connected among players before it did the conversion of a Connected quality to the Renown quality.

    In other words, there is no constant reliable equation for that.
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    VioletBandit
    VioletBandit
    Posts: 100

    6/2/2017
    Kukapetal wrote:
    But again a carousel defeats the purpose of what the the renown grind is supposed to be. It's supposed to be increased gradually as you play and ally with factions. It just sucks for us end-game players because we've gone through that already and can't do it as we go along.


    We've gone through that already, but the conversion rate hasn't reflected that. It feels as if all of my constable and devil acquaintances have forgotten about my existence overnight for some reason, and now I have to regain their trust all over again, with no way of doing it but an extremely boring grind that depends almost entirely on luck. All of the RP decisions I made on conflict cards no longer matter, because my highest levels of connected were in the mid-40s, so at the present rate I just have to start all over again with everyone. I never spent much time grinding connected, because I liked the organic way it felt. It did what you believe renown should do: increased- and decreased- gradually as I went through my day. I enjoyed that, and I wouldn't mind renown that much if it didn't feel like it erased all of my previous interactions with all of the factions. Of course, people who've put a lot of effort into grinding connected should be rewarded and have easier access to the higher tier items. But with all of the time my Watchful character spent solving mysteries with the constables, I feel like she would have earned a +4 item from them. Not to mention that, after interacting with them so often, it's simply weird to read that she is only known to the newest recruits.

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    Kukapetal
    Kukapetal
    Posts: 1449

    6/2/2017
    I get that people are having issues with the conversion rate, I'm simply saying that not having a carousel to grind favors so you can sprint to the end of the grind for every faction isn't inherently unfair or game-ruining
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    VioletBandit
    VioletBandit
    Posts: 100

    6/2/2017
    I understand. But while I agree a carousel wouldn't be ideal, it might be a way to balance the problems created by the conversion rate, as it would allow late game players to catch back up to where they were supposed to have been to begin with. As things currently are, I think not having any method of doing that is very unfair on end level players. I completely agree with you that the relationship with the different factions is supposed to build organically. But that's precisely why it's so jarring to suddenly see those naturally formed connections disappear overnight. Rebuilding them quickly from a carousel wouldn't be ideal, but I personally think it would feel less artifical then restarting all the relationships as if the characters had just fled New Newgate for the first time.

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    Kukapetal
    Kukapetal
    Posts: 1449

    6/2/2017
    I see your point too, I guess I'm just one of the late game players who enjoys having a bunch of new challenges to work for. If they just let us skip to the end of all the challenges because we're end-gamers, then we're back to having nothing to work for except for money-grinding. But I do realize I'm in the minority here (as usual :P )
    edited by Kukapetal on 6/2/2017
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    Optimatum
    Optimatum
    Posts: 3666

    6/2/2017
    VioletBandit wrote:
    Rebuilding them quickly from a carousel wouldn't be ideal, but I personally think it would feel less artifical then restarting all the relationships as if the characters had just fled New Newgate for the first time.

    A carousel would address some of the issues with Renown but IMO it wouldn't solve the bigger issue. If the problem is the current mechanic feels artificial, creating a way to grind Favours just increases that. Acquiring Favours faster doesn't make Renown any more integrated with the setting. I'd rather just cut out the middleman and have ways to raise Renown directly.

    (There would definitely need to be caps or something though so you couldn't reach Renown 50 by running basic errands.)
    edited by Optimatum on 6/2/2017

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    loredeluxe
    loredeluxe
    Posts: 106

    6/2/2017
    I don't mind a grind really, it gives me something to work toward. My issue now is that I want a straightforward carousel to get favors, similar to what you could do to get favors with the docks or rubbery men, or even a slightly luck based method with the finishing school used with tomb colonists and urchins. Criminals wasn't that bad because the opportunity cards were abundant with their favors, but I do not want to rely on RNG from opportunity cards to get favors. Give us a carousel to work towards for favors, and it will at least give us a set goal to work towards.
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    Kukapetal
    Kukapetal
    Posts: 1449

    6/2/2017
    But again a carousel defeats the purpose of what the the renown grind is supposed to be. It's supposed to be increased gradually as you play and ally with factions. It just sucks for us end-game players because we've gone through that already and can't do it as we go along. But it will likely work out well for people who join the game from now on. Us end game players may just have to suck it up during this initial awkward period.

    Anyway, why not set a different goal to work towards? I log in twice a day, play all my cards, and then spend the rest of my time grinding for another overgoat. And my renown still goes up pretty fast. I'm never hurting for docks/criminals/urchin favors, and it's gotten to the point where grinding for renown is actually interfering with my other grind because converting favors to renown can get expensive when you have three seperate grinds going on and one of them is almost always ready to be converted.
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    Kukapetal
    Kukapetal
    Posts: 1449

    6/2/2017
    It's a grind, for high tier items and qualities. It's supposed to be monotonous/expensive/challenging. Wouldn't be nearly as impressive once you get there if you are just able to whip through it in a week or so.
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    suinicide
    suinicide
    Posts: 2409

    6/3/2017
    (Another idea I have is that the rewards from conflict cards should scale with renown, which would make sense, show that they are liking you more, and give a reason to go above 40)
    edited by suinicide on 6/3/2017

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    loredeluxe
    loredeluxe
    Posts: 106

    6/4/2017
    For what its worth, a method to grind Hell favors has been discovered on Polythreme by spying for the Brass Embassy. It's apparently quite action intensive so I'm sailing to Polythreme and seeing how many actions it takes to do one carousel and if it's even remotely worth it.
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    Anne Auclair
    Anne Auclair
    Posts: 2215

    6/4/2017
    I think it's important to remember that the system is only half implemented. After all, if you came upon a house that was still under construction, you wouldn't expect it to have running water, power, or furniture. Once the new system is finally in place, attention will turn to how best to fully integrate it with the rest of Fallen London. Probably, hopefully, with an eye towards player feedback.

    I generally like the new system. Connected represents both connections and favors and this uneasy combination means that if you trade in too much Connection you lose your whole relationship with said faction, which is just weird. Connected also makes it somewhat prohibitive to switch your Closest To, so you have to resign yourself to starting at zero with the faction you are leaving.

    I agree that story's should start giving renown at some point. I also think there should be a way, ideally at the Carnival, to raise renown without having to buy a faction item. First, getting renown entirely through a faction aligned item makes renown feel a little compartmentalized and narrow - like you're interacting with the item rather then the faction - and some alternative methods would eliminate this feeling. Second, items like the Constable's Badge and Slowcake's Exceptional's are expensive and it seems an unnecessary barrier to entry for new players to force them to collect those items in order to raise their renown above five. Third, one particular concern of mine is that the renown system is going to hollow out Miss Plenty's Carnival. Right now the Carnival is a nice place to go if you, say, traded in some Connected and need a little more, plus it's fun to mingle with the various groups of Fallen London. After you reach renown five with a group you can no longer mingle with them at the Bigtop or the Sideshows, and this makes the Carnival feel oddly empty.

    It's okay if they want to place a hard limit on the favors that can be earned at the Carnival, but having some additional options at the Carnival to raise renown above 5 would be great. It would make renown feel more integrated.
    edited by Anne Auclair on 6/4/2017

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    Anne Auclair
    Anne Auclair
    Posts: 2215

    6/4/2017
    Optimatum wrote:
    If you came upon a house under construction, you wouldn't expect it to have all the features of a complete house, but you wouldn't ask someone to live there and make use of the facilities either.

    I recall that there's an old Tom Hanks movie with exactly that setup. I think it's a remake of an old Carey Grant movie. Anyway, in the Tom Hanks movie, living in a house while it was under construction was literally their only option, as they didn't have enough money to live elsewhere while fixing up the property. If Failbetter could carry out the entire changeover in one go, I'm sure they would. But there are hard limits on how much they can do while working on many other FL projects (such as the coming story updates, the second Mayoral election, and the Festival of the Zee).

    Point being, we've probably got a ways to go before things are finalized.
    edited by Anne Auclair on 6/4/2017

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