Kukapetal
Posts: 1449
6/2/2017
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I get that people are having issues with the conversion rate, I'm simply saying that not having a carousel to grind favors so you can sprint to the end of the grind for every faction isn't inherently unfair or game-ruining
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Gillsing
Posts: 1203
6/2/2017
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IgnatuStone wrote:
This is a good system, the problem is the implementation. Instead of encouraging this mad dash to accumulate the most renown before conversion day Failbetter should have completed all the content and implemented it in one fell swoop.
Well, naturally they wanted to test the system before spending the time and effort to change all the interactions that involve faction reputation. That's what they said when they started with the Criminals.
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VioletBandit
Posts: 100
6/2/2017
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I understand. But while I agree a carousel wouldn't be ideal, it might be a way to balance the problems created by the conversion rate, as it would allow late game players to catch back up to where they were supposed to have been to begin with. As things currently are, I think not having any method of doing that is very unfair on end level players. I completely agree with you that the relationship with the different factions is supposed to build organically. But that's precisely why it's so jarring to suddenly see those naturally formed connections disappear overnight. Rebuilding them quickly from a carousel wouldn't be ideal, but I personally think it would feel less artifical then restarting all the relationships as if the characters had just fled New Newgate for the first time.
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Kukapetal
Posts: 1449
6/2/2017
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I see your point too, I guess I'm just one of the late game players who enjoys having a bunch of new challenges to work for. If they just let us skip to the end of all the challenges because we're end-gamers, then we're back to having nothing to work for except for money-grinding. But I do realize I'm in the minority here (as usual :P )
edited by Kukapetal on 6/2/2017
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VioletBandit
Posts: 100
6/2/2017
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Oh, I think everyone loves new challenges. :p Games are no fun without them. But I can't see this is a new challenge. It feels more like an old challenge many of us have already gone through and now have to go through all over again, and in a much less satisfying way, to get rewards that should already have been earned. I'm looking forward to the continuations to the Dilmun Club and The Last Constable storylines, and I hope they are full of challenges! But they are actual new content, and are related to interesting, organic narratives, which renown lacks. As others have said, perhaps if they found a way to convert favours into renown that felt more integrated on the narrative, or perhaps that involved lore about the factions, the other issues wouldn't matter so much. 
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Violet Bandit, my main account. Extraordinary Mind and player of the Marvellous.
Dauntless Damsel, my alt. Shattering Force and Vake hunter.
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Optimatum
Posts: 3666
6/2/2017
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VioletBandit wrote:
Rebuilding them quickly from a carousel wouldn't be ideal, but I personally think it would feel less artifical then restarting all the relationships as if the characters had just fled New Newgate for the first time.
A carousel would address some of the issues with Renown but IMO it wouldn't solve the bigger issue. If the problem is the current mechanic feels artificial, creating a way to grind Favours just increases that. Acquiring Favours faster doesn't make Renown any more integrated with the setting. I'd rather just cut out the middleman and have ways to raise Renown directly.
(There would definitely need to be caps or something though so you couldn't reach Renown 50 by running basic errands.)
edited by Optimatum on 6/2/2017
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suinicide
Posts: 2409
6/2/2017
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I think that conflict cards should give you some up to 10, and stories and such up to 25. Leaving the 50 item behind the faction item. That way you get the first two naturally (or with some help), but the only way to get the last is to REALLY show your devotion.
(This would also give some people reason to play through rubbery murders :P)
edited by suinicide on 6/2/2017
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MidnightVoyager
Posts: 858
6/2/2017
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suinicide wrote:
I think that conflict cards should give you some up to 10, and stories and such up to 25. Leaving the 50 item behind the faction item. That way you get the first two naturally (or with some help), but the only way to get the last is to REALLY show your devotion.
(This would also give some people reason to play through rubbery murders :P)
edited by suinicide on 6/2/2017
That's probably how it should work from the start.
But man, I look back over the years and all the connections I spent for basically no reason because they were useless and what I got from the connections I had left, and it's hard not to feel a little sore. I did stories connected with Hell and I got exactly 0 renown on conversion.
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Midnight Voyager - A blood-cousin to predators. Collector of beasts. Affably mad.
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suinicide
Posts: 2409
6/3/2017
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(Another idea I have is that the rewards from conflict cards should scale with renown, which would make sense, show that they are liking you more, and give a reason to go above 40)
edited by suinicide on 6/3/2017
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A gentleman seeking the liberation of knowledge, with a penchant for violence.
RIP suinicide, stuck in a well. Still has it under control.
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An Individual
Posts: 589
6/3/2017
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MidnightVoyager wrote:
But man, I look back over the years and all the connections I spent for basically no reason because they were useless and what I got from the connections I had left, and it's hard not to feel a little sore. I did stories connected with Hell and I got exactly 0 renown on conversion.
I feel you. I literally spent the last year selling the devils about 40k echoes worth of souls and now don't even have enough renown to use the Unfinished Business that gives souls.
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Skinnyman
Posts: 2133
6/3/2017
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An Individual wrote:
MidnightVoyager wrote:
But man, I look back over the years and all the connections I spent for basically no reason because they were useless and what I got from the connections I had left, and it's hard not to feel a little sore. I did stories connected with Hell and I got exactly 0 renown on conversion.
I feel you. I literally spent the last year selling the devils about 40k echoes worth of souls and now don't even have enough renown to use the Unfinished Business that gives souls.
Well, yes, you bastard! Stop trading poor souls! 
On the topic, I must say I like it, but I'm a hoarder/complesionist; looking at the achievement list gives you an idea so I'm probably not the right person.
But I think after more (all?) factions are getting converted things will change. As we can see, there are different options to use Favours/connections after these two last ones. No one can tell which system is the best so all FBG can do is to try different approaches and us, the fallen ones, discuss them. All this in the end, I'm sure will produce a lovely new system!
My only problem is that I only managed to get Church over 1000, but it's a good enough achievement. Speaking of Church, I was waiting so eagerly to start cashing it with the Hell CC, but 100 CP isn't the number I was expecting!
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Gul al-Ahlaam
Posts: 225
6/3/2017
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It was my understanding that, once the system was fully implemented, it would be expanded, with opportunities to gain favor and especially renown added to the various storylines. The idea was, if I recall correctly, that favors would be available through opportunity cards, carousels, and one-time story events, and that renown would increase for completing stories involving the faction in question. For instance, completing Discernment might grant a boost to Renown: Hell, or solving the case of the Peculiar Glim-Sculptor might grant a boost to Renown: Rubbery Men. And so on. While I am perfectly content with the current system, I do hope this more complete integration eventually occurs, since currently the process of gaining renown and favors does feel slightly divorced from the process of progress through the story. Of course, I have great confidence that things will work out just perfectly! ^_^
EDIT: typos!
edited by Gul al-Ahlaam on 6/3/2017
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The Uncanny Hierophant.
The Jewel-Eyed Prince.
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Yeah
Posts: 67
6/3/2017
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IgnatuStone wrote:
However we need to consider how it is for new players. For them its a kind of side quest which happens at the same time as you are experiencing all the new content. It makes the early content last longer and creates a sense of continuity between different levels of play. By the time you reach the late game you will have accumulated a significant amount of renown without even thinking about it.
edited by IgnatuStone on 6/2/2017
As a fairly new player (started in early december), I don't really think this is true. I didn't even know about renown until mid January, when the Urchins conversion went through, and the notification was at the top of the Fallen London page. And money was pretty scarce for me back then, getting at best .4 echo an action, assuming i never failed the actions. It would've taken me three or four days to get enough money for just a single conversion item, which I then would've needed to put my favours into, which I would've much rather kept for potential future use. When I hit PoSI status, my highest renown was rubbery men, if I recall, which was still below ten. Even now, my highest renown is only seventeen. If renown items were cheaper, between 5-15 echoes, I could see a new player being able to get renown as they make their name through the game, but that major price cost was a massive hurdle on the beginning of my renown grind.
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Yeah Man - A Bleeding-heart hoarder of curiosities.
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OctaviaCrowe
Posts: 137
6/3/2017
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The greatest issue, in my not-at-all humble opinion, is the sheer disparity of potential favor gains.
Criminal favors may be gained by
1. A drink with the Cheery Man
2. The Reliable Safe Cracker's wedding
3. The Mayor of London
4. A better breed of shiv
5. Your dangerous henchman
6 Your lovely conspirator
7. your connected pet
8. The criminals card
9. the smokey flophouse
10. The kidsman option at your orphanage
11. Your bands of thieves.
And quite probably MORE.
Hell? Reliable options? The hell card, the pet, and Burning Shadows.
We need purchasable Hellish companions whose card allows you to gain favors.
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Ms. Octavia Crowe, the Hellfaring Mystic, former keeper of the Books of Brass. The Seeking... the Name... it has devoured... everything.
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Gonen
Posts: 817
6/3/2017
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OctaviaCrowe wrote:
Hell? Reliable options? The hell card, the pet, and Burning Shadows.
We need purchasable Hellish companions whose card allows you to gain favors.
And Polite Invitation (3 Favours!), An afternoon of good deeds (Finally, something to do with that card), The Brass Embassy 5 lodging card.
That is, actually, far more opportunities than urchins or tomb colonies or dock.
Constables and Tomb Colonies are the hardest to gain, in my regard.
edited by Gonen on 6/3/2017
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Siankan
Posts: 1048
6/3/2017
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OctaviaCrowe wrote:
The greatest issue, in my not-at-all humble opinion, is the sheer disparity of potential favor gains.
I agree with the statement, but not the example. After all, didn't someone recently post a long list of ways to gain renown with Hell?
Now, I don't necessarily think that all factions need to have equal favor opportunities. It seems logical to me that, say, Society favors would be far easier to acquire than Rubbery favors. However, there are definitely some factions that seem to be too far on the low end. I would like to see, if not absolute parity, at least general parity between the factions.
That is, of course, only covering the main factions. When, one day, they convert affiliations like the Masters, I fully expect that Masters favors will be far harder to acquire than anyone else, and I think most everyone expects and is fine with that. (There will, no doubt, be a dissenter somewhere; someone will always complain, no matter what you do - or don't do.) They will have quite a puzzle on their hands, I think, in converting things like the Widow over to the new model, and perhaps an even bigger one when it comes to Shroud and Glass. That is, no doubt, why they are holding off on these rarer factions until after all the rest are complete.
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Jeremy Avalon
Posts: 345
6/3/2017
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Put me down for the camp of "one-time stories should eventually be reworked to increase Renown up to certain caps" (because you shouldn't be able to grind, say, Renown 49 for Hell and then skip the effort of 50 by putting off becoming an Infernal Informant for *the entire game*).
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How we must glow; yes, I bet we look like snow.
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OctaviaCrowe
Posts: 137
6/4/2017
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Siankan wrote:
OctaviaCrowe wrote:
The greatest issue, in my not-at-all humble opinion, is the sheer disparity of potential favor gains.
I agree with the statement, but not the example. After all, didn't someone recently post a long list of ways to gain renown with Hell?
Yes, but most of those are not repeatable.
Every example I provided for criminals were repeatable options. Only the polite invitation (a rare card), the Embassy lodging (an expensive one) the pet, the good deeds, and Burning Shadows are repeatable for Hell.
That leaves criminals twice as easy to get.
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Ms. Octavia Crowe, the Hellfaring Mystic, former keeper of the Books of Brass. The Seeking... the Name... it has devoured... everything.
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Yeah
Posts: 67
6/4/2017
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Siankan wrote:
and perhaps an even bigger one when it comes to Shroud and Glass.
I figure they'll probably just swap out Connected Shroud and Glass to Renown Shroud and Glass, since they're pretty much just story qualities, and I'm pretty sure neither has any impact whatsoever once you perform The Grand Seance, or whatever the other one was.
Edit: Swapped slang with actual words.
edited by Yeah on 6/4/2017
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Yeah Man - A Bleeding-heart hoarder of curiosities.
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loredeluxe
Posts: 106
6/4/2017
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For what its worth, a method to grind Hell favors has been discovered on Polythreme by spying for the Brass Embassy. It's apparently quite action intensive so I'm sailing to Polythreme and seeing how many actions it takes to do one carousel and if it's even remotely worth it.
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