Mad_Scientist
Posts: 3
3/16/2017
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Very mild spoilers here for the early "making your name stuff" for Persuasion.
So, after a long, long hiatus, I decided to get back into this game. I never progressed all that far the first time, so I decided to just remake my account and start over from scratch again. And I've been very appreciative of some of the changes, in particular the "Name signed in..." method of story progress now replacing stat based progress. Now I can take as much time to fully explore the options at each stage without worrying about my stats accidentally getting too high.
BUT: I have an annoyance with the requirements to progress in Name Signed with a Flourish. In order to reach lvl 2 in this, I have to have an affair with either a heiress or a jewel thief. Those are, as far as I can tell, literally the only options to progress the story.
Meanwhile, I've been attempting to convince a struggling artist's model of my love. So, literally the only way to progress is to... cheat on the person I've been trying to convince that my desires are genuine?
Yeah, I get that once you succeed in convincing her, you find out she's stealing secrets, and are forced to end the relationship, at least temporally, but I'd forgotten that and so the timing of the storylett irked me a bit. And just in general, forces a romantic affair to progress seems rather limiting from a roleplaying perspective.
It just seems kind of weird to me that there isn't an alternative way to get this up to 2. Anyone else agree, or am I the only one?
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Slyblue
Posts: 224
3/17/2017
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All the Making Your Name storylets have aspects that wouldn't really fit in unless your character is an OP Paramount Presence of Legendary Awesomeness. How did my curt, drunk revolutionary get through Court when he can barely write his own letters? How did my hedonistic ex-Author kill enough people without breaking a sweat, if she can't tell a dagger's pommel from the pointy end? Why does anyone want to befriend my definitely insane alt? It's just stuff that happens, and it's up to us to headcanon a way for it to make sense, sadly. I don't think FL can possibly pander to every background and every character we can come up with, after all.
edited by Slyblue on 3/17/2017
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The Smiling Devil • The Curt Licentiate • The Keen-Eyed Captain
"For hearts of truest mettle, absence doth join and Time doth settle."
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Siankan
Posts: 1048
3/19/2017
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Well, I will say I do enjoy rationalizing when I can. His short stint with Feducci's fighting rings came right after getting kicked out of the university, when he was very unsettled (and I wasn't sure what I wanted to do next). I also managed to pass through with a single quick fight, which helped. After he got settled out a bit, he left all that behind.
However, there is at least one area in which issues like this one make interesting characters harder. Great characters are often defined more by their weaknesses than their strengths, and it's very hard to have a weakness (except for an extraordinarily flexible morality) when your character's been through all four Making Your Name sequences, and I don't mean that in a stats way. Need something killed? Call me. Need your neighbor's expensive whatsit to disappear? Send a raven. Need somebody who can charm the robe off a Master while simultaneously teasing ancient enigmas from alien scripts? Sure; I'm not busy this afternoon. What have I not done? I honestly prefer leaving game bits out in the name of not becoming a Superman who doesn't care about kryptonite and doesn't need the sun.
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Prof. Sian Kan, at your service.
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Mr Sables
Posts: 597
3/19/2017
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See, this is why I think the old system shouldn't have been changed . . .
FBG went through a phase of 'fixing' what wasn't broken; anyone remember the changes to the cost feature, which practically broke the Forgotten Quarter, and still hasn't been 100% fixed? This is kind of the same thing, only this one may stay (like the renown) . . . only it could probably be tweaked a little, like with the renown, and - like how the renown is still incomplete over a year on - we could be waiting a long time for any changes.
I feel the reason people liked FL was because of the freedom and ability to role-play how they liked . . . if you didn't want to do certain actions, you could easily avoid them, and if you wanted to play a specific character, you could. The knew changes force you to play a very specific type of character, so that you're railroaded into certain choices that may be the antithesis to the character you created, and - no - this doesn't make for a 'more complex' character, as a person said, but simply takes away the power of imagination and choice from the player. 'Simple' characters can be very complex in motivation and personality, but now with everyone 'complex' and a 'jack of all trades' all new characters lose anything special and unique.
We can't create our own paths. We can't create our own experiences. We're all doing the exact same thing as every other player . . . playing the exact same things, the exact same stories, with no deviation and no need to create a community to trade stories or ask for information . . . it's a cut-and-paste formulaic playthrough.
I think it could put people off, too . . .
In the old system, my main and alt were able to take control; I could define them, explore freely, try to unlock certain new places, grid for new things, do what I wanted to do and do what I enjoyed (ignoring what may have been a displeasure to me). I tried creating new accounts since then, but every single one I deleted . . . it was too boring, to be honest, forced to play a specific path and takes aggggges before I was free to explore or do certain things or go to certain areas, especially when to get to the next level of 'making your name in x' you could spend days or weeks of grinding the same actions over and over and over . . . not good enough just to beat x dude, but you have to be x dude and an insane number of other people, too, even when it creates gameplay/story segregation and plotholes.
There's a reason why open-world games are more popular than closed-world, linear-path games . . . just like there's a reason why games with enforced tutorials get more complaints than games with more innovative or 'learn as you go' systems. This new system -? It's like the world's most boring and longest tutorial, and - frankly - I would love to see player numbers, because I'm curious if other people dropped off due to the new system, too. Older players stay as nothing changed for them, but brand new player I can imagine being turned off.
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Siankan
Posts: 1048
3/19/2017
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Amalgamate wrote:
Yeah, you kind of get that in all the trackers. I mean, to advance in Shadowy you pretty much have to be a sneaky SOB, to advance in Dangerous you have to be the kind of guy who joins ringfights for profit, the only path through Watchful leads you to become an academic studying an esoteric language... there's really no way to envision a consistent character that does all of those things.
Of course, nothing forces you to to follow all the paths; technically, you could do most things without starting any of them. However, it is an unfortunate irony that a mechanic designed to give you freedom and meaningful choices (i.e. a set of paths that are not mutually exclusive) ends up creating a completionist pressure to "Do ALL the things!" which sets up London for hosting a vast amount of dissociative identity disorder. (This could be the underlying cause of Dr. Schlomo's prosperity, come to think of it.)
That said, there is generally more wiggle-room in the other paths than with this particular incident, and of course it also comes up very early. The only other similar situation I can think of that comes up in the middle (instead of the end) of a progression is when the dangerous path forces you to take a life.
[spoiler]The dangerous situation is in some senses worse, because those who don't want to kill will - they thought - have just managed to sidestep the problem. Finding out they have to kill anyway is a particularly vicious bait-and-switch, and though the situation might make for great characterization viz Feducci, it's a miserable situation to play through without warning.[/spoiler]
edited by Siankan on 3/19/2017
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Prof. Sian Kan, at your service.
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Siankan
Posts: 1048
3/16/2017
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I have to say I'm with you on this. My main character has all the romantic soul of a coal cellar, and though I spent some time with the heiress, it felt out of character. I wouldn't mind on my other character, but not having a choice except "woo the heiress" or "never progress in the chief persuasive storyline" was not something I was pleased with.
There is not, to my knowledge, a way around that problem, unless you feel like RPing in your head some falling out, a rebound relationship that doesn't work out, and patching things up with your ex. The cards won't help you with it, alas.
On the bright side, though this isn't the only romantic relationship ahead for persuasive folk such as yourself, the later episode can be gotten around, should you desire.
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Prof. Sian Kan, at your service.
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Cryptix23
Posts: 33
3/17/2017
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I have a habit of just... ignoring the actual text and handwaving a lot of things, personally, for RP purposes. My main account was far past those romances but recently finished up the Court romances, where I just decided to treat them as platonic, one-way fascinations given that she's an oblivious ace whose heart lies elsewhere. She also was forced to reject both the Thief and Model for similar reasons, and as far as I'm concerned the 'rejections' were far less heartless than the text claimed. I just find a different way to justify how she got to the needed result.
Still, that kind of thing might not work for everybody, and it is occasionally irksome when the only way to progress is to go against your character.
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Prone to occasionally disappear for weeks at a time.
Lady 23; the Magnanimous Midnighter, self-styled detective vigilante. Extraordinary Mind. Loves boxed cats.
The Aluminum Eagle; grumpy bandaged hobgoblin with entirely too many dogs. Shattering Force.
Threnody Lament; charmingly ruthless socialite.
Carrion Crow; Seeker of the Name. Cares little for safety or sanity.
All characters accepting calling cards and social actions. Follow their adventures here
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DrMoriviri
Posts: 67
3/17/2017
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While I certainly understand your point, I think it's a necessary trade-off for the kind of game FL is. RP is great, but Failbetter is ultimately triyng to tell stories, so this kind of limit RP choices. If you want to progress in shadowy storylets, you'll have to steal stuff. For persuasive, you'll have to seduce people. For dangerous, you'll have to be violent, etc.
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