suinicide
Posts: 2409
3/12/2017
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xKiv wrote:
shylarah wrote:
What solid proof do we have that Cups is Mirrors,
What I recall:
Current content end of Nemesis has the character figure it out: there's only one book for scheduling meetings with the masters - cups between sunday and wednesday only, mirrors between thursday and saturday only.
Also, one of the relickers of relicker rats lets it out in one of the bigger exchanges.
Also also, they both deal in "The frangible and the fine" in their twitter bios: https://twitter.com/mr_cups https://twitter.com/mr_mirrors
and that Apples is Hearts?
I don't even know where that came from.
FBG confirmed apples/heart directly, not in game.
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http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/profile/sunnytime
A gentleman seeking the liberation of knowledge, with a penchant for violence.
RIP suinicide, stuck in a well. Still has it under control.
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Fadewalker
Posts: 136
3/12/2017
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Yes. And here if you want:
http://www.failbettergames.com/the-mysteries-answered/
Mr Cups once called (or made a metaphor) Mr Mirrors as its reflection on twitter.
https://twitter.com/Mr_Cups/status/19432091207
Though sometimes I'm wondering if someone's reflection is strictly the same person. And what is Nemesis in deed, what if there are also puns like some other ambitions... But that is overthinking. Generally, all the existing evidence shows that Mr Mirrors and Mr Cups are the same person, and so are Hearts and Apples.
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A fervent supporter of the Council and the Masters.
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crazyroosterman
Posts: 187
3/12/2017
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Teaspoon wrote:
Mr Candles is officially Mr Eaten. He is not spoken of in polite company, or indeed in indecent company. You'd have to work quite hard to find anyone willing to tell you about him.
Knife and Candle, I have no idea. so ill presume then that mr candles became the enigma he is now sometime after the second city then.
anything else ill wait till im ready to go seeking to find out.
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Anne Auclair
Posts: 2215
3/12/2017
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The Lord Breakfast wrote:
Gul al-Ahlaam wrote:
Impersonation/delivery of false testimony: We're out of masters now, but we've still got two 'false' masters, Sacks and Chimes. Sacks is a creation of the Bazaar, so he can't have existed before the masters and the Bazaar met one another. Most people agree that Chimes is all of the masters taking turns, but Failbetter never confirmed this. Even in the Mysteries thread, they explicitly avoid saying anything particular about Mr Chimes one way or another. And in Nemesis, where it explicitly tells you that Sacks isn't a real master, it never says anything to that effect about Chimes, and lumps them in with the other real ones. So I'm saying maybe it's the other way around. Maybe Mr Chimes IS a real master, and imitates its colleagues. It could trade in influence, or lies, or something like that.
edited by Gul al-Ahlaam on 3/11/2017
This is an interesting point of view, and it does mean the numbers work out a bit better. I'm a fan of this conclusion. And having a Master who imitates the other Masters for lulz does strike me as a fun idea.
If this were so, then the House of Chimes is something of a fraud. The House gets its exclusivity by being patronized by all the Masters, rather then simply being the hangout/establishment of one Master in particular. Furthermore, this indicates that if a Master is not clearly identified but merely gives you behavior "hints" it might not actually be that Master, but rather the Master who impersonates all the others.
Does anyone remember Mr Chimes having a Sackmass Noman though? Like, Mr. Eaten has one, so Mr. Chimes would presumably have one, if he was a separate Master.
On the other hand, if Mr. Chimes really is a collective product of all the other Masters, then maybe they're all guilty of impersonation, with Mr. Chimes simply a collective expression of this tendency.
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http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Anne%20Auclair
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xKiv
Posts: 846
3/13/2017
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Fadewalker wrote:
Yes. And here if you want:
http://www.failbettergames.com/the-mysteries-answered/
Aha. That says:
FailBetterGames wrote:
‘How many Masters are there?’ Eleven, currently. The count is complicated by Mr Apples, who also trades as Mr Hearts; by Mr Cups, who also trades as Mr Mirrors; and by debate over whether Mr Chimes, Mr Sacks and Mr Eaten count as Masters. But there are eleven.
I note that this avoids explaining whether they are counting physical identities (cups+mirrors=1, apples+hearts=1), or trading identities (cups+mirros+apples+hearts=4, but chimes+sacks+eaten=0 because they don't actually have dominion over any trade domain?)
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https://www.fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/xKiv - a witchful, percussive, dangermous and shadowry scholar of coexplodence, hopsidirean, and walker of fallen kitties.
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The Lord Breakfast
Posts: 70
3/13/2017
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Anne Auclair wrote:
The Lord Breakfast wrote:
Gul al-Ahlaam wrote:
Impersonation/delivery of false testimony: We're out of masters now, but we've still got two 'false' masters, Sacks and Chimes. Sacks is a creation of the Bazaar, so he can't have existed before the masters and the Bazaar met one another. Most people agree that Chimes is all of the masters taking turns, but Failbetter never confirmed this. Even in the Mysteries thread, they explicitly avoid saying anything particular about Mr Chimes one way or another. And in Nemesis, where it explicitly tells you that Sacks isn't a real master, it never says anything to that effect about Chimes, and lumps them in with the other real ones. So I'm saying maybe it's the other way around. Maybe Mr Chimes IS a real master, and imitates its colleagues. It could trade in influence, or lies, or something like that.
edited by Gul al-Ahlaam on 3/11/2017
This is an interesting point of view, and it does mean the numbers work out a bit better. I'm a fan of this conclusion. And having a Master who imitates the other Masters for lulz does strike me as a fun idea.
If this were so, then the House of Chimes is something of a fraud. The House gets its exclusivity by being patronized by all the Masters, rather then simply being the hangout/establishment of one Master in particular. Furthermore, this indicates that if a Master is not clearly identified but merely gives you behavior "hints" it might not actually be that Master, but rather the Master who impersonates all the others.
Does anyone remember Mr Chimes having a Sackmass Noman though? Like, Mr. Eaten has one, so Mr. Chimes would presumably have one, if he was a separate Master.
On the other hand, if Mr. Chimes really is a collective product of all the other Masters, then maybe they're all guilty of impersonation, with Mr. Chimes simply a collective expression of this tendency.
Perhaps Chimes is a separate master, but he simply never leaves the House of Chimes. If I recall, the Master Nomen were created using Master's blood, so if Chimes stayed safe, inside the House of Chimes, perhaps his blood was never used, thus why he didn't have a Noman. This would also mean that whenever you encounter a Master outside the House of Chimes, you can be assured that it is the real Master, rather than Chimes impersonating them. Perhaps that's even the specific purpose of the House of Chimes. Perhaps it was created for Chimes by the other Masters to enable him to continue his "criminal" activities without interfering with their business in London proper, even as they all use the privacy of the Neath to commit theirs. The House isn't so much sponsored by all the Masters as a club for Exceptional Friends, but instead sponsored by all the Masters as a place for one of their own to take refuge.
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The Lord Breakfast, Captain Bacon, The Ageless Pirate, Bane of Salad, The Thrice-Mad, Eater of Pelicans
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Akernis
Posts: 255
3/13/2017
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crazyroosterman wrote:
so i'll presume then that mr candles became the enigma he is now sometime after the second city then.
anything else ill wait till im ready to go seeking to find out.
That happened during the reign of the Third City.
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Vena's profile - http://fallenlondon.com/Profile/Akernis
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al2o3cr
Posts: 66
3/14/2017
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loredeluxe wrote:
One small bit of lore from Sunless Seas mentioning the Vake referred to its "brothers and sisters." This one line always made me wonder if any of the Masters are actually Ms and not Mr. I was kind of hoping deep down the Masters lore revealed would tell us which of the Masters were male and female. This probably doesn't matter in the grand schemes of the story but it always got me thinking.
I suspect the birds & bees talk is a touch more complicated than just two genders when it starts with "so once, a star and a space crab loved each other very much and then a mountain happened". 
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Stygota
Posts: 64
3/15/2017
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Pumpkinhead wrote:
Kindelwyrm wrote:
This new information, and conjecture from various people, has made me wonder if Candles really was the Runt. I don't think it explicitly says it was anywhere, does it? Though it does seem that Failbetter intentionally leaves things vague for us to draw our own conclusions, at times...
I really want to discuss one of the endings to Seeking Mr Eaten's Name, but I don't know if that's too spoilery for the forums.
The echo from the Destin's option in the Lighthouse (someone posted it earlier) does make it clear that there was something "deficient" with Candles, although it never says "runt" explicitly.
And discussing the SMEN endings on the open forums is pretty frowned upon, although PMs are fine. Which end do you want to discuss? I grieved and would enjoy a discussion if you're interested.
Also, one of the "preparations" mentions the dual nature. The last bit, I believe, is about even a runt having its uses - consider the owl. I can't remember what other piece that's coupled with in my head, but I knew Candles was a "runt" without having seen the Lighthouse text. Might be the bits about the taking of his flesh - I think it's the various ways the betrayal is described.
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A once hungry, now sated Hunter with a silver tongue: http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Stygota
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Stygota
Posts: 64
3/15/2017
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Oh...I feel dumb. It never occurred to me, but given the new excerpt, since Irons presides over Iron and Candle, and one is guilty of the crimes of the knife and the candle...
Was it ever clear who the betrayer was, the one who clasped arms with Candles on the way up to the flensing and cleaving of flesh? I know there's some information floating around somewhere.
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A once hungry, now sated Hunter with a silver tongue: http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Stygota
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suinicide
Posts: 2409
3/15/2017
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It was veils, made clear during some parts of SMEN.
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http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/profile/sunnytime
A gentleman seeking the liberation of knowledge, with a penchant for violence.
RIP suinicide, stuck in a well. Still has it under control.
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The Master
Posts: 804
3/15/2017
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Akernis wrote:
crazyroosterman wrote:
so i'll presume then that mr candles became the enigma he is now sometime after the second city then.
anything else ill wait till im ready to go seeking to find out.
That happened during the reign of the Third City.
But Candles was the one who was sold for the third city IIRC so isn't it right before the third city fell?
--
http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Lolwolfking
A very ruthless and daring doctor of the neath.
No more gift exchanges, im getting too many and I can barely hold these.
He has knowledge of a certain enigma, ask, you will get a clue.
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suinicide
Posts: 2409
3/15/2017
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I suppose it depends on when the city falls and when the price is paid. At the same time? Do the masters have to perform their part first? Or do the rulers of the city?
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http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/profile/sunnytime
A gentleman seeking the liberation of knowledge, with a penchant for violence.
RIP suinicide, stuck in a well. Still has it under control.
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Ian Hart
Posts: 437
3/28/2017
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I'm definitely strongly inclined to believing Chimes is a master of imitation.
Here is more evidence that there are 10 masters (after Eaten is removed) spoilers: http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Antifinity?fromEchoId=6400027
I have a further pet theory that Fate purchases might directly represent his/her/its influence. The House of Chimes itself being the obvious case, but a lot of fate purchases involve various masters being uncharacteristically charitable towards you, and never speaking of it again. Such as Irons sending you a Sacks robe and Cinder if you pay Fate, or Apples playing especially poorly if you pay Fate to win the Yacht.
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http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Antifinity
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genesis
Posts: 924
3/28/2017
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Ian Hart wrote:
I'm definitely strongly inclined to believing Chimes is a master of imitation.
Here is more evidence that there are 10 masters (after Eaten is removed) spoilers: http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Antifinity?fromEchoId=6400027
Well, that would suggest 11, not 10, no?.. Eaten out, You in
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http://fallenlondon.com/Profile/mikey_thinkin
Keeping track of incomplete content and loose ends in Fallen London
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Masterpiece
Posts: 6
3/30/2017
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If we accept the possibility that someone can become a Master, is it then possible that Prince Albert is becoming or has become a Master, and is thus counted in the current number eleven? What information do we have about the number of Masters between the fall of the Third City and the fall of the Fifth City?
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suinicide
Posts: 2409
3/30/2017
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Very unlikely, you can see him in a few pieces of fate locked content and he is not doing well.
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http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/profile/sunnytime
A gentleman seeking the liberation of knowledge, with a penchant for violence.
RIP suinicide, stuck in a well. Still has it under control.
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Emain Ablach
Posts: 348
3/30/2017
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And why do you suppose Prince Albert is (becoming) a Master ?
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Went NORTH. Got salted. Never came back. We won't remember him.
https://www.fallenlondon.com/profile/Emain%20Ablach
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Hattington
Posts: 210
3/30/2017
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Omega8520 wrote:
So, our wonderous overlords at FBG have just released some glorious new Masters information, which has got the IRC in a tizzy.
http://www.failbettergames.com/a-secret-about-the-masters/
The IRC's current guesses as to which Master is which
[spoiler]
- hoarding (Stones?)
- light-bringing (Fires?)
- impersonation, and the delivery of false testimony (Veils?) (Apples/Hearts?) (Sacks, maybe? but Sacks isn't a real master)
- perpetration of the crimes of knife and of candle (Irons)
- idleness, and the dwelling-on of dreams (Spices?)
- runtery, aberration, (Candles)
- pursuit of a Treachery (?)
- failure and defeat; a fall from king to beggar (Wines?)
- glass-whispering. And worse: charity (Mirrors/Cups?)
- truth-strangling (Pages?)
- violation of the Order of Days, “which determines the hour of the hunt, the feast, the council, the bargain, and the slaughter” (Veils?) (Apples/Hearts?)
[/spoiler]
I'm pegging Apples/Hearts for impersonisation and testimony because they're otherwise rather affable for Masters. And violation of the Order of Days for Veils, because he's effing obsessed with the hunt. Actually, I'd peg Mirrors/Cups for failure and defeat; it's interesting he's the Master charged with associating with the notable, as if he's a king in exile playing pretend with an alien court. And Wines is both a sponsor of the Vake-hunting nuns, his more interesting drinkables do give him a controlling interest in mirror-related activities-and most tellingly, he's the Master captured by the Fingerkings in a certain destiny, not Mirrors/Cups or Spices implying he was doing something interesting behind glass.
Most everything else seems spot on, and I wouldn't assume anything about the Treacheries when we barely know what they even truly entail.
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The Dawnburnt Vake-Rider: https://www.fallenlondon.com/Profile/Hattington
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Ian Hart
Posts: 437
4/7/2017
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genesis wrote:
Ian Hart wrote:
I'm definitely strongly inclined to believing Chimes is a master of imitation.
Here is more evidence that there are 10 masters (after Eaten is removed) spoilers: http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Antifinity?fromEchoId=6400027
Well, that would suggest 11, not 10, no?.. Eaten out, You in
Right, started with 11, then Eaten was removed, and you are not in yet. So 10 active masters in addition to Eaten.
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http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Antifinity
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