Dean Lee
Posts: 133
2/23/2017
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Specifically Rattus Faber.
Spoilers!!
So, as we know, motion up the great chain is often facilitated by: [spoiler]supera-phagy, the eating of something above you (on the chain)[/spoiler]
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Did the first Rattus Faber arise when a rat committed anthropophagy??
Edited B/C I forgot we can only use one spoiler field...
edited by Dean Lee on 2/23/2017
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Diptych
Administrator
Posts: 3493
2/24/2017
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Entirely possible, but rats eat people often enough that I'm surprised it hasn't been mentioned explicitly!
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surreyjack
Posts: 105
2/24/2017
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I assume they couldn't ascend when eating a person in the presence of a Judgement's law. So it makes sense that it only happened in the neath
Now I have to think about the Cavies eating people too
edited by surreyjack on 2/24/2017
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Mordaine Barimen
Posts: 670
2/24/2017
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Sequence and Order insist that they don't know what you are speaking of, surreyjack
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Diptych
Administrator
Posts: 3493
2/24/2017
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Well, turnabout is fair play...
(I do wonder about the different personalities displayed by different animals. Cats are not only intelligent and talkative, but apparently rather special. Rats come in talking and not-talking varieties. All the cavies we meet talk, but we don't meet many, so that could be coincidence. Ravens and monkeys can both become more intelligent with the right stimuli. Bats seem quite bright but never quite reach the level of communicativeness. Dogs are sadly both rare and largely silent. What's going on with all these animals?)
edited by Sir Frederick Tanah-Chook on 2/24/2017
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Juniper Brown, the Ill-Fated Orphan. Esther Ellis-Hall, the Fashionable Fabian.
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surreyjack
Posts: 105
2/24/2017
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Sir Frederick Tanah-Chook wrote:
Well, turnabout is fair play...
(I do wonder about the different personalities displayed by different animals. Cats are not only intelligent and talkative, but apparently rather special. Rats come in talking and not-talking varieties. All the cavies we meet talk, but we don't meet many, so that could be coincidence. Ravens and monkeys can both become more intelligent with the right stimuli. Bats seem quite bright but never quite reach the level of communicativeness. Dogs are sadly both rare and largely silent. What's going on with all these animals?
I think neath cats were already special, with their ties to parabola and all
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Henry 0th
Posts: 27
2/24/2017
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This leave one to wonder what would happen if you took a surface cat down to the neath. Would it become able to talk human languages.
Likewise what would happen if a neathy cat went to the surface. I assume the judgements would have something to say about a talking cat (mostly no). Would the cat me simply dissolved eventually like the neathy zailors in sunless sea. Would it be knocked back down the chain of being. Would a sufficiently large and advance sombero protect it.
Finally do cats have the vote. Other then tigers because nobody is going to tell a tiger that they aren't allowed to vote.
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An Individual
Posts: 589
2/24/2017
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Technically speaking, you only need one animal to bring human intelligence into the food cycle via consumption of something with human intelligence (probably a human). But once it's in the system it could spread to other animals that eat that animal.
Something to remember though is that the rule comes in 2 parts.
"If you consume something greater, then you may incorporate it: unless it incorporates you."
So rats ate humans. But who incorporated whom?
Also, do we know that the incorporated elements are hereditary? Do Rattus Faber have to find a dead human for their children to eat to gain their intelligence? Does that process sometimes go wrong if the wrong party incorporates the other?
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Hotshot Blackburn
Posts: 110
2/25/2017
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Sir Frederick Tanah-Chook wrote:
Well, turnabout is fair play...
(I do wonder about the different personalities displayed by different animals. Cats are not only intelligent and talkative, but apparently rather special. Rats come in talking and not-talking varieties. All the cavies we meet talk, but we don't meet many, so that could be coincidence. Ravens and monkeys can both become more intelligent with the right stimuli. Bats seem quite bright but never quite reach the level of communicativeness. Dogs are sadly both rare and largely silent. What's going on with all these animals?)
Keep in mind that monkeys can (apparently) also talk - at least under certain conditions. Your Malevolent Monkey outright speaks when you both honey-dream in Parabola, which not only indicates monkeys can travel to Parabola with Prisoner's Honey but are also at the least dream-sapient; he(?) apparently can also somehow convey to you that your Urchin companion is spying on you, though whether speech or pointing to letters or really elaborate pantomime is never stated; the Pentecost Apes are (from Sunless Sea, ES stories, and the Apes and Ivories storylet) also fully capable of speech, though how much of this is them and how much of this is +soul+ is never highly elaborated on.
Dogs get the short hand though. I'm a cat person myself, definitely, but there's only like...six max canine companions you can have at one time through Fate investment and exclusionary choices (Hungerover Terrier/Maverick Bloodhound/Disappointing Marsh-Wolf [exclusionary faction pet], Haunted-Looking Dog [exclusionary rare pet], Rubbery Hound [Fate], Slavering Dream-Hound [Fate], Perspicacious Lurcher [exclusionary profession pet], and Wolfie [you'd have to have been here since before the beginning]) while there's like nine different cats you could have had with only a few being exclusive (like the Sunless Sea Parabolan Panther or the factionary pet Grubby Kitten). And nowhere in lore does it ever indicate dogs speaking! Normally dogs get all the love and cats relatively little so the turn-around is pretty cool, but it does stand out.
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Catherine Raymond
Posts: 2518
2/25/2017
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Hotshot Blackburn wrote:
Sir Frederick Tanah-Chook wrote:
Well, turnabout is fair play...
(I do wonder about the different personalities displayed by different animals. Cats are not only intelligent and talkative, but apparently rather special. Rats come in talking and not-talking varieties. All the cavies we meet talk, but we don't meet many, so that could be coincidence. Ravens and monkeys can both become more intelligent with the right stimuli. Bats seem quite bright but never quite reach the level of communicativeness. Dogs are sadly both rare and largely silent. What's going on with all these animals?)
Keep in mind that monkeys can (apparently) also talk - at least under certain conditions. Your Malevolent Monkey outright speaks when you both honey-dream in Parabola, which not only indicates monkeys can travel to Parabola with Prisoner's Honey but are also at the least dream-sapient; he(?) apparently can also somehow convey to you that your Urchin companion is spying on you, though whether speech or pointing to letters or really elaborate pantomime is never stated; the Pentecost Apes are (from Sunless Sea, ES stories, and the Apes and Ivories storylet) also fully capable of speech, though how much of this is them and how much of this is +soul+ is never highly elaborated on.
Dogs get the short hand though. I'm a cat person myself, definitely, but there's only like...six max canine companions you can have at one time through Fate investment and exclusionary choices (Hungerover Terrier/Maverick Bloodhound/Disappointing Marsh-Wolf [exclusionary faction pet], Haunted-Looking Dog [exclusionary rare pet], Rubbery Hound [Fate], Slavering Dream-Hound [Fate], Perspicacious Lurcher [exclusionary profession pet], and Wolfie [you'd have to have been here since before the beginning]) while there's like nine different cats you could have had with only a few being exclusive (like the Sunless Sea Parabolan Panther or the factionary pet Grubby Kitten). And nowhere in lore does it ever indicate dogs speaking! Normally dogs get all the love and cats relatively little so the turn-around is pretty cool, but it does stand out.
I'm not sure that dogs don't talk in FL. I believe the Haunted-Looking Dog does, in the scene where you retrieve him from the cats tormenting him (though it's possible I am remembering incorrectly). On the other hand, I do not recall any of the weasels talking, ever.
Thanks for the listing of dogs in FL. Most of these pre-date *my* involvement with FL, and I go back quite a ways. (Not far enough back to have a Wolfie, alas).
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Cthonius
Posts: 362
2/25/2017
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Iirc the Haunted Dog doesn't, I'd recently seen its text.
Cats are special, and who's to say anything would be different on the surface or not. Perhaps the Law prevents their speaking on the Surface, but should one go either way between the two the only difference would be their speech.
As for the monkey, it may talk, but it talks only in Parabola. Things are different there, laws do not apply in any way. Even in the Neath some semblance of law persists.
Lastly we should remember we're forgetting something important about rising on the Chain. "To ascend is not possible, save by the Science (And the Science does not exist.)"
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PSGarak
Posts: 834
2/26/2017
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I wonder if there is a distinction to be made between animals that came down from the surface with the rest of London, versus those that are native to the Neath. The Apes in particular seem to come from the Elder Continent, and their sentience seems related to that influence. Many animals speak, the closer you get to the Mountain.
I wonder how many cats came with London when it fell, and how many the Duchess might have had with her.
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Sam Stephens
Posts: 73
2/26/2017
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For what it's worth, my Hungover Terrier seems to talk a bit. Here I quote the wiki: You're in luck. The pharmacist has a stock of Mrs Gebrandt's new remedy, Milk of Magnesia. A spoonful later, your terrier is much restored. Enough to tell you something he learned while acquiring the hangover in the first place. I do wonder why man's best friend is so taciturn. This is quite the mystery...
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Anne Auclair
Posts: 2215
2/27/2017
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surreyjack wrote:
Sir Frederick Tanah-Chook wrote:
Well, turnabout is fair play...
(I do wonder about the different personalities displayed by different animals. Cats are not only intelligent and talkative, but apparently rather special. Rats come in talking and not-talking varieties. All the cavies we meet talk, but we don't meet many, so that could be coincidence. Ravens and monkeys can both become more intelligent with the right stimuli. Bats seem quite bright but never quite reach the level of communicativeness. Dogs are sadly both rare and largely silent. What's going on with all these animals?
I think neath cats were already special, with their ties to parabola and all
So who or what did the cats eat to get that way?
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Dean Lee
Posts: 133
2/27/2017
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Anne Auclair wrote:
surreyjack wrote:
Sir Frederick Tanah-Chook wrote:
Well, turnabout is fair play...
(I do wonder about the different personalities displayed by different animals. Cats are not only intelligent and talkative, but apparently rather special. Rats come in talking and not-talking varieties. All the cavies we meet talk, but we don't meet many, so that could be coincidence. Ravens and monkeys can both become more intelligent with the right stimuli. Bats seem quite bright but never quite reach the level of communicativeness. Dogs are sadly both rare and largely silent. What's going on with all these animals?
I think neath cats were already special, with their ties to parabola and all
So who or what did the cats eat to get that way?
Snakes? Mirror Snakes? Maybe.
In all seriousness y'all, some really awesome lore theories here!!! I've really enjoyed reading your responses.
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A list of credentials
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Research progress:
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77 volumes of Prelapsarian archeology
77 volumes of theosophistry.
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Estelle Knoht
Posts: 1751
2/27/2017
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Anne Auclair wrote:
surreyjack wrote:
Sir Frederick Tanah-Chook wrote:
Well, turnabout is fair play...
(I do wonder about the different personalities displayed by different animals. Cats are not only intelligent and talkative, but apparently rather special. Rats come in talking and not-talking varieties. All the cavies we meet talk, but we don't meet many, so that could be coincidence. Ravens and monkeys can both become more intelligent with the right stimuli. Bats seem quite bright but never quite reach the level of communicativeness. Dogs are sadly both rare and largely silent. What's going on with all these animals?
I think neath cats were already special, with their ties to parabola and all
So who or what did the cats eat to get that way?
Consider this: the Duchess is of Egyptian descent, from the time when Egyptians really, really worshiped cats.
All cats you encounter have some sort of connection to the Duchess.
I am guessing that cats in London are all from or at least descended from the much-worshipped Second City cats, which might already be supernatural pre-Fall.
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Anne Auclair
Posts: 2215
3/1/2017
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I dunno... How many years has it been since the fall of the Second City exactly?
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Diptych
Administrator
Posts: 3493
3/1/2017
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About thirty-two hundred, give or take?
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Sir Frederick, the Libertarian Esotericist. Lord Hubris, the Bloody Baron.
Juniper Brown, the Ill-Fated Orphan. Esther Ellis-Hall, the Fashionable Fabian.
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Anne Auclair
Posts: 2215
3/1/2017
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I think it's a bit of a stretch to assume that the cats that fell with the Second City roughly three thousand years ago were the exact same types of cats now prowling the streets and mirrors of Fallen London.
I just thought of something. We know that Parabola shifts to reflect the dreams and ideas of people, particularly Neath dwellers. Apparently when brass was all the rage in one ancient city there were rivers and rivers of the stuff in Parabola. The Egyptians thought a great deal about cats. Maybe this preoccupation brought into being a Parabolian species of godlike dream cats that the Egyptians then crossbred their mortal cats with, producing a new intelligent species capable of living in both the Neath and Parabola.
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Pumpkinhead
Posts: 516
3/1/2017
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Anne Auclair wrote:
I think it's a bit of a stretch to assume that the cats that fell with the Second City roughly three thousand years ago were the exact same types of cats now prowling the streets and mirrors of Fallen London.
I mean, the duchess lasted that long. Why not the cats?
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