SpellingSword
Posts: 10
1/18/2017
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Can't wait to have yet another "Renown" only obtaianble through unfun and worthless sacrifice of favors that are in turn only obtained from opportunity cards.
Hurray for immersion-breaking pointless grinding!
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http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/SpellingSword
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Optimatum
Posts: 3666
1/18/2017
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I really hope that after all the factions are converted to Favours and Renown, FBG goes back and adds Renown gains to stories like in the original concept. Renown would feel a lot less grindy if it was actually involved in general play, rather than slowly increasing one quality for a couple fancy items and minimal effect on everything else. If progress rewarded Renown and higher Renown opened new paths through stories, this whole system might actually feel like a part of the game.
SpellingSword wrote:
This chage is certainly worthy of taking priority over silly thigns like
-Finishing the bloody ambitions that have been seemingly abandoned
-Any continuation to the stories that promised one(The Last Constable, Deviless and The Sprifier etc.)
-Any lead up to Destinies
-Dilmun club
To be fair, those are all quite different tasks than Renown conversions. The conversions are primarily mechanical changes and only need new writing for a handful of options. Writing a continuation for existing stories would require a lot of time spent on design, writing, mechanical implementation, and testing. For the Ambitions, only around a quarter of players will even have access to any new content, and many of those players may not be at the end of the existing content. Writing a bunch of new story only available to a subset of players (on a certain Ambition or far enough in the game) would eat up resources for unclear gain. It's entirely understandable that FBG is focusing on more limited tasks first.
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dov
Posts: 2580
1/19/2017
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A lot has already been said (including by me) about the drawbacks of the new Renown system (I'm fine with the Favours).
The old Connected quality means how closely you've interacted with a faction, specifically in their favour. Having a very high Connected: The Church, for example, means you've often interacted with them and helped them.
The Renown quality has no gameplay/roleplay/story/character meaning. It doesn't measure how close you are to a faction. Instead the only thing it measures is how many times you have clicked on the faction's item in your inventory instead of doing something else.
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Wiwo
Posts: 365
1/18/2017
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I'd additionally like to add that the renown 25 items are quite good, and most of the renown 40 items are best in slot. It's entirely appropriate that you have to laboriously earn them.
What DOES make my brain itch is the fact that I can't ever max out my renown for an already converted faction, even with best-in-slot gear, overcapping, and a mood.
edited by Wiwo on 1/18/2017
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Wiwo. Almost certainly not a squid in a cunningly tailored suit. Surely.
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I'm a Correspondent and would be delighted to lecture at your orphanage.
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Zack Oak
Posts: 205
1/19/2017
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The favor gain for renown is pure RNG, with a large cost of items to follow. Instead of it feeling like grinding connections, it's me flipping card after card, gaining undiscardable conflicts due to the slowness of favor gain, and then spending a lot of resources just to improve that renown, sometimes not even by a whole point.
Unfortunately, it's replaced one form of grind for another, but with much slower return, and much harsher penalties. Adding easier ways to gain favors might help with this, but the way things are set up just makes it frustrating to work with.
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Mr Sables
Posts: 597
1/18/2017
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SpellingSword wrote:
Guess my rookery password is now on the list of useless items that I can only use to waste precious favors in hopes of receving an underwhelming item a few years down the line.
This chage is certainly worthy of taking priority over silly thigns like
-Finishing the bloody ambitions that have been seemingly abandoned
-Any continuation to the stories that promised one(The Last Constable, Deviless and The Sprifier etc.)
-Any lead up to Destinies
-Dilmun club
Also I started ~3 months ago and despite caching in just about all my tomb-colonies favors for renown I barely have 10. What did I get? A +4 dangerous item. Wow. I managed to become a PoSI in that time and renown is looking nowhere near impressive.
I agree with your point, but not quite the tone . . .
Essentially, very old storylines take a lot of time to complete; FBG said that they now give full consideration to time estimates, making sure they have time to complete every project, but this wasn't the case way back . . . especially as - back then - there weren't other games, EF stories, and other content to juggle . . . this seems relatively fair to me, as they couldn't predict the future would be so busy.
That being said, I also think they said - now certain things are out the way - they can focus more on finishing unfinished things . . . whether this means ambitions and old stories -? I don't know. It's clear they're finishing out the renown/favour conversion, though.
Still . . . FBG has a wide range of player; some like to collect items, some like myself prefer stories and qualities, and others may prefer other elements. There are many people who will love trying to get this 40+ renown item; it'll be a challenge, it'll kill time for the end-game players, and it'll be something new for their collection . . . I won't be going for it, as trying to get favours for Rubbery is a b**** enough, but others won't mind and will enjoy the challenge. Good for them, most sincerely.
I think it's okay to voice dissatisfaction; there's a lot I don't like, too, but . . .
I don't know. This sounds a little rude in tone? :-/
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SpellingSword
Posts: 10
1/18/2017
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Guess my rookery password is now on the list of useless items that I can only use to waste precious favors in hopes of receving an underwhelming item a few years down the line.
This chage is certainly worthy of taking priority over silly thigns like
-Finishing the bloody ambitions that have been seemingly abandoned
-Any continuation to the stories that promised one(The Last Constable, Deviless and The Sprifier etc.)
-Any lead up to Destinies
-Dilmun club
Also I started ~3 months ago and despite caching in just about all my tomb-colonies favors for renown I barely have 10. What did I get? A +4 dangerous item. Wow. I managed to become a PoSI in that time and renown is looking nowhere near impressive.
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http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/SpellingSword
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Mr Sables
Posts: 597
1/18/2017
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SpellingSword wrote:
I expressed my concerns in a far less antagonizing manner around 2 months back.
Seeing as they release another Renown transition with virtually all the same flaws that I pointed at back then it seems my concerns were ignored.
I don't think you're concerns were 'ignored' as such . . .
Honestly? I strongly dislike the new renown/favours system; the old system felt more organic, was easier to make sense of as a new player, and they could have easily have attached 'items' to it without the need for any change, but . . . the game is made for a wide variety of players. There are players who love the new system, while it certainly seems to be generating a lot of attention.
FBG are great for feedback, listening to every player, but . . . sometimes we're in the minority, or sometimes our desires aren't practical, or sometimes FBG just want to go a different direction or want to try something new . . . it may work, it may be a mistake, but they try.
I'll not derail the thread further, but it's something to bear in mind . . .
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MidnightVoyager
Posts: 858
1/18/2017
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I'm mostly unhappy with how I previously had much higher qualities for... say, urchins, but then a mechanic was introduced that encouraged me to burn them before the favors system came out.
I have never so regretted having an orphanage.
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Midnight Voyager - A blood-cousin to predators. Collector of beasts. Affably mad.
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Cthonius
Posts: 362
1/18/2017
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Robin Alexander wrote:
I think they said the player average determines conversion rate, right? I'm wondering if maybe one player somewhere is an outlier . . . gaining SUCH a massive amount of urchins renown that it's skewered it for the rest of us, meaning that it's gone from 5/6 to 7. If so, I think the use of an 'average' for determining the ratio from connected to renown ought to be drastically rethought . . .
I spent a fair bit of money and time going over the free/non-seasonal cap with Masters . . . when it comes to them, if I don't get the max renown (because some players are outliers and in the twenties) I may just stop playing, as it'll be both an insult and waste of money.
I have no idea why this one is 7, so unexpectedly, but . . . dang . . . that was a harsh conversion 0_0
I would imagine they'd factor in (or factor out, specifically) outliers for just that reason. As for Masters, there's a high chance that never gets changed over due to how different and exceptional that Connected quality is; they've stated that not all factions will definitely be brought over, since they might not work in the new system.
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Cthonius, gone North. Gone.
Oneiropompus, a Scarlet Saint, eager to help make your dreams realities. Accepting all social requests for now.
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NotaWalrus
Posts: 221
1/18/2017
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I feel very conflicted about the favors and renown mechanics. As far as grinds go it's not the least fun. But if you want those items you are heavily incentivized to not use favors for anything other than increasing renown, making you actually interact with the faction less and removing many interesting things from the game (e.g I haven't used An Implausible Penance in weeks now, it's become yet another trash card until I get the 40 Renown Criminals item). I feel like a better system would have been that every storylet that gives a favor also gives a CP of renown for the relevant faction. That would make a lot of sense and fix the previous problems with Connected, but that's not going to happen.
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http://fallenlondon.com/Profile/NotaWalrus
Ignacious, the Fluid Professor, he will accept most social invitations, including boxed cats and affluent photographers (but only betrayals), though he is absent-minded and might take more time than entirely necessary. He apologizes.
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Frenzgyn
Posts: 197
1/19/2017
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As I said, it's not the mechanic that is frustrating, it's the way it is tuned.
Favours gaining\spending is fine and it's ok also the idea they could be turned in the permanent renown and the latter will open up to reward.
The problem is that it is a really long grind, mainly depending on card flipping and RNG, after the first time it became boring and with Renown more than 15 it will require buying lot of materials, so in the end it will cost lot of actions, echoes, card flipping and mindless clicking.
For what?
Disappointing rewards, with maybe two that are ok stat-wise but considering the crazy amount of efforts they need, are pointless.
As a plus, Renown could only be maxed if you have farmed a crazy amount of connection before the transition and if you have not, you will be punished, because any connection around 70 Will be transformed in the equivalent of less than 10 tickets and 20 actions for a fresh player.
Also, renown and rewards are poorly intertwined with the rest of content and I doubt there is any ending epic text.
It just seems a cheap way of keeping players busy.
It's not that i am fully against farming (I was an hardcore World of Warcraft player, so I know what farming is), but if you really could not come out with anything less boring, at least make the rewards really worthwhile (like goats) ore tune down the grind to a less maddening level or a mix of the two.
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http://fallenlondon.com/Profile/Frenzgyn
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maleclypse
Posts: 259
1/19/2017
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I am going to be honest. The renown system has grown on me. I'm really hopeful for more ways to spend all the various favors other than conflict cards and that will really complete it for me. I've figured out why this is working now for me. Because basically the spending favors on the connected item is you doing something that should have incurred you more favours but going ahead and writing all that debt off. Just sitting there and saying Hey Rubbery friends I know you feel indebted to me for saving your tenement from that riot but seriously you guys are the best! You show me so much interesting junk down in flute street I'm just lucky to have you guys as friends. And those favours a very real and tangible currency in the neath well those markers are just gone as if they were called in. But the people whose debts you absolved, well they won't ever stop singing your praise/or venom. They will love you and they will hate you and it's just another one of the bazaars stories but they will always tell stories of the rights you wronged and the wrongs you righted.
But that's just my personal headcanon explanation for Renown.
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Maintaining a controlling interest in my soul requires a pretty constant negotiation between the various shareholder interests. Thankfully the Fingerkings 23% control makes a pretty good foil to unite the other factions enough to get to 51%.
http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Maleclypse
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Silvan Derre
Posts: 61
1/19/2017
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But why make the conflict cards undiscardable??? Just got the docks-urchin card and I don't understand what purpose is it supposed to serve story-wise
That just makes things that much harder to grind when I'm forced to give up all the favors I've saved.
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Aronia
Posts: 36
1/20/2017
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Novice speaking here.
In fact, the new system seems logical to me. I did feel a bit queer about the Connected one: first, you do them favours to get closer to them, then you, say, take a few lessons from them, and… what? Do you become more distant from them now? Have you offended them in any way? If you choose a profession related to a certain faction, you seem to offend them greatly, while the logical thing would be to get closer to them, because hey, I'm working with you now, am I not?
It seems more logical if you trade favours for these things, while becoming better-known at the same time.
The problem is the fact that the faction items (and Mrs Plenty's Carnival, but that is capped at a very low level) seem to be the only way of getting Renown. The items do exist for the Connected factions, too, but they are more of an emergency, something you use if you need a significant amount of Connected here and now. This fact does make the system… queer. It would be much better if every Favours trading would get you just a little bit Renown, too.
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Lucy van Helsing, phantom de sa fille, a breathtaking and inescapable lady, spending most of her time among the Bohemians, the Devils and the Society.
I don't loiter right now, but I like chess and coffee, Strage Pranks, Bifurcated Dreams and the like. I also accept Calling Cards.
Ask this shady individual to loiter or help with Menaces if you'd like. Out of Skulls for now, though.
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Mr Sables
Posts: 597
1/18/2017
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I think they said the player average determines conversion rate, right? I'm wondering if maybe one player somewhere is an outlier . . . gaining SUCH a massive amount of urchins renown that it's skewered it for the rest of us, meaning that it's gone from 5/6 to 7. If so, I think the use of an 'average' for determining the ratio from connected to renown ought to be drastically rethought . . .
I spent a fair bit of money and time going over the free/non-seasonal cap with Masters . . . when it comes to them, if I don't get the max renown (because some players are outliers and in the twenties) I may just stop playing, as it'll be both an insult and waste of money.
I have no idea why this one is 7, so unexpectedly, but . . . dang . . . that was a harsh conversion 0_0
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Diptych
Administrator
Posts: 3493
1/18/2017
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Robin Alexander wrote:
I think they said the player average determines conversion rate, right? I'm wondering if maybe one player somewhere is an outlier . . . gaining SUCH a massive amount of urchins renown that it's skewered it for the rest of us, meaning that it's gone from 5/6 to 7. If so, I think the use of an 'average' for determining the ratio from connected to renown ought to be drastically rethought . . .
Urchins Georg has ruined it for everyone, again!!
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Sir Frederick, the Libertarian Esotericist. Lord Hubris, the Bloody Baron.
Juniper Brown, the Ill-Fated Orphan. Esther Ellis-Hall, the Fashionable Fabian.
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colinsapherson
Posts: 191
1/18/2017
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There did actually used to be a Widow connection card (back when it was called Connected: The Orient), so that could be brought back in. I do admit, it felt more like a standard connection then (this was 4+ years ago IIRC), including with the ream of Spite stories that were about interacting with the Widow's smuggling operations.
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Available for Knife & Candle Moon League matches, Tournaments of lilies and other social actions (including boxed cats and photographers).
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Kharsirr Lynx
Posts: 318
1/18/2017
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If not that favours/Renown distraction, my long way to the Cider could well be left out well ago. Now I at least have secondary targets, while moving on.
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https://www.fallenlondon.com/profile/Kharsirr%20Lynx
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SpellingSword
Posts: 10
1/18/2017
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I expressed my concerns in a far less antagonizing manner around 2 months back.
Seeing as they release another Renown transition with virtually all the same flaws that I pointed at back then it seems my concerns were ignored.
EDIT: Heh, I thought I saw you in that thread too. Here's the link for anyone who might want to read
http://community.failbettergames.com/topic23590-thoughts-on-favors-and-connected-from-a-new-player.aspx
edited by SpellingSword on 1/18/2017
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http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/SpellingSword
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Saklad
Posts: 528
1/18/2017
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I like this system far better than the old Connected one, and I think anyone who starts the game with the system already in-place would too.
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Saklad5, a man of many talents
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Toran
Posts: 193
1/19/2017
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Personally I don't think people are intended to grind to higher than 25 Renown with most factions unless they're bored/want to.
All Favours so far can be turned in for very fine cash rewards once you stop aiming for higher Renown.
And, as an end-game player, most of the Renown items are highly optional. As I've said before, there are only 3-4 tests that are not 100% success at end-game (with an Ubergoat), so Renown items are a side-quest. If you don't like Renown, don't play along.
That said, I also agree that having in-story instant Renown awards would significantly improve the immersion.
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https://www.fallenlondon.com/profile/Anthony%20Toran
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Grenem
Posts: 2067
1/19/2017
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Toran wrote:
Personally I don't think people are intended to grind to higher than 25 Renown with most factions unless they're bored/want to.
All Favours so far can be turned in for very fine cash rewards once you stop aiming for higher Renown.
And, as an end-game player, most of the Renown items are highly optional. As I've said before, there are only 3-4 tests that are not 100% success at end-game (with an Ubergoat), so Renown items are a side-quest. If you don't like Renown, don't play along.
That said, I also agree that having in-story instant Renown awards would significantly improve the immersion.
I agree. I also hope they make favors convertible at a high loss rate; but with actual storylets. It would really improve utility if you could turn 2-3 favors of type X into a favor of type Y, and it wouldn't be too exploitable, especially if they made it a conversion circle and not a "turn any type into any type".
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On psudeo-hiatus. Will be inactive and active and fluctuate without warning.
Grinding Favors without cards: http://community.failbettergames.com/topic22266-storylet-favors-grinding.aspx
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