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Erika
Erika
Posts: 528

10/18/2016
Hannah Flynn wrote:
Thanks everyone for your discussion and feedback, and for sending tickets - you are excellent.


Unfortunately, this isn't a straightforward change, and our developers are currently fully occupied with the Fallen London mobile port and Sunless Sea expansion.

As an interim measure, we've added an indication of how many Crates of Expedition Supplies the player has to the storylet text of archaeological expeditions, since this is the example that has been brought up most often; we'd welcome suggestions for other branches or storylets that would particularly benefit from this.

I love Fallen London, I really do. It has fantastic writing, great stories, stellar characters, and the literal best community. But there's this tendency for projects started and then forgotten. There's a thread just for that actually. This habit of unfinished and broken things extends to marriage, divorce, both apps, costs and requirements, favours and renown, and boxes of a hundred wonders ("This is temporarily unavailable while we fix a technical issue. Please bear with us for a short while, delicious friend.").

I feel particularly disgruntled about this quote, as now both of the listed things are done, only now there's a new game on the agenda.

--
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                           Going on a fate expedition? I'm collecting data! Help me?
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An Individual
An Individual
Posts: 589

10/18/2016
I'll admit to being concerned about these unfinished feature changes. Not because they bother me personally. I have and continue to enjoy the game. I'm more concerned with the optics they present to new players starting the game for the first time. Most of the incomplete things don't affect this but there are two that do.

1) The partial conversion from Connected to Renown. We do still seem to be making slow progress on this, but if your new to the game and trying to figure out the mechanics having different factions using different mechanics isn't going to help things.

2) Not being told how much of something I lost and how much I have remaining when playing a storylet that's been converted to "cost" labeling system. And also the inconsistency in that conversion. This is the big one. Without getting that information every time it's hard to keep track of how much of something you have (because you have a LOT of somethings), and the inconsistency means you can't rely on something not in the "cost" labeling not being lost. It harms the usability of the UI significantly.

Again, these things aren't going to harm my own enjoyment of the game. I'm not even worried about player retention because if you've been here a while you've probably figured these things out. But even before a number of these changes came in I've talked to people who tried to pick up the game and gave up because they got confused. So I'm a little worried that things like this will make it harder to onboard new players.

That being said, I'm sure Failbetter is aware of these things and has weighted them against other areas they could be spending their resources. There have been rumblings of something going on in the background for a while so there may be something big coming down the pipe we are unaware of. Development is necessarily a black box and while I think it's healthy to respectfully vent frustrations (you can't fix user pain points if you don't know they exist) we do have to trust that the team knows what they're doing.

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genesis
genesis
Posts: 924

10/18/2016
I would make two counterpoints.

1. As I understand it, Sunless Skies are not in full development yet. If the Kickstarter fails then the game likely wouldn't be made and do it's unlikely that the majority of the studio's resources would be devoted to the new game until then. So, while on the extreme side slightly, I think Hannah's quote above has not been shown to be inaccurate yet.

2. Personally (and of course ymmv), I completely understand that the studio's priorities change. It's annoying, it's unfortunate but I think it's reasonable and to be expected. Business consideration, human resources etc. What I think is the real problem is communication. It's used to be the case that FBG did change logs but those days are unfortunately in the past. I know the developers have acknowledged the need to communicate more frequently and more clearly but for whatever reason that hasn't really happened. I would assume limited human resources is the main reason

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Mr Sables
Mr Sables
Posts: 597

10/18/2016
genesis wrote:
What I think is the real problem is communication. It's used to be the case that FBG did change logs but those days are unfortunately in the past. I know the developers have acknowledged the need to communicate more frequently and more clearly but for whatever reason that hasn't really happened.



I think you've hit the nail on the head . . .

I remember working on an an old forum that went down; the members were furious, not because it went down, but because the admin at the time refused to communicate and explain why or even if it would be back . . . no one knew where they stood, what happened, or what was going to happen, which peeved them off no end. Most even explicitly said that they didn't mind if it were gone forever or would come back, but just that they wanted an answer and the respect owed that came with being answered.

If priorities changed and 'coming soon' and 'finished for now' have become "pfft, yeah, not happening", I think most people would rather know than constantly hoping for an ending to a particular story or for a new/old feature to be introduced/returned . . . answers probably are worth more in gold than any actual action at this point.
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Diptych
Diptych
Administrator
Posts: 3493

10/18/2016
I'm not Failbetter and I don't know how these processes work for them, but I do know two things.

One: they've done a hell of a lot for us over the years, in terms of producing fun new content, listening to feedback, fixing bugs, and rewarding our participation. I don't think it's fair to assume deliberate disrespect or malice when they fail to meet your expectations,

Two: They're keeping a lot of balls in the air, and keeping us informed of everything can go just as wrong as keeping things mum, if not moreso. It can mean, explicitly or implicitly, making promises that they can't - even shouldn't - keep.

--
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Estelle Knoht
Estelle Knoht
Posts: 1751

10/19/2016
Anne Auclair wrote:
If its just a question of money, perhaps they should have a kickstarter to dispense with the FL content/update backlog?


I don't support that, actually. Unless FBG is in a precarious position, it doesn't sound like a particularly laudable move to crowdfund most of these content. There's a big difference between, say, crowdfunding a new game or a new expansion pack to crowdfunding completion of core content.

I mean, if Carnelian Coast was a child of crowdfunding, you might end up expecting the rest of Dilmun Club and the rest of mainline content be crowdfunded too, but that doesn't seem particularly healthy.

Plus, it seems like they are more starved for time and less for money.

Crowdfunding to unlock very old Exceptional Stories for the rest of the players.... now that I don't mind :P

--
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I currently do not accept any catbox, cider, suppers, calling cards or proteges.
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Harlocke
Harlocke
Posts: 506

10/19/2016
Cthonius wrote:
Ah but them how many players do the cider grind and such? In fact that kind of thing was explicitly addressed, I think by Alexis. "We could write content for Ubergoats and cider, but how many players would that be for" or something like that. The early game is the most important part to keep new players interested and invested. Only a vocal minority here would benefit from the high level stories you suggest.


The long term players are the ones buying exceptional memberships, contributing to kickstarters, spending fate. I'd argue that retaining/increasing the number of long term players is perhaps even more important than just keeping new players interested.

And I think there is a balanced amount of content that should be written for late game. I'm not saying FBG should throw all their resources at stories that unfold over two years. Just that it would be nice if there was anything at all.

Heck, it wouldn't even have to just be entirely new stories from scratch. Just opening up new branches on existing loops would be interesting enough. Imagine if the box grind gave you a new brief storylet each time you go through the loop 1000 times, up to your 10,000th loop when it repeats, as a sort of meta-grind to make grinding more interesting than just a straightforward slog.

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MidnightVoyager
MidnightVoyager
Posts: 858

10/21/2016
I think it's a little weird how the penultimate update for Light Fingers seems to have not come up, and how they said the next faction to be updated would be Urchins and then it just never happened. Overhauling favors came to a stop for long enough that I've ground up Criminal favors to the max. Also, I've been holding up my notability forever for eventual job updates... and I have my own final ambition update to wait for.

I've honestly forgotten what happened in a lot of stuff on the unfinished stories list, to the point where I'd have to reread it to know what's going on. But I can't actually do that because of how the journal works.

--
Midnight Voyager - A blood-cousin to predators. Collector of beasts. Affably mad.
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Mr Sables
Mr Sables
Posts: 597

10/19/2016
Anne Auclair wrote:
If its just a question of money, perhaps they should have a kickstarter to dispense with the FL content/update backlog?



Definitely second that.

Cthonius wrote:
I have to wonder if questions of this nature, on updates, were so common in the past. Seems multiple times a week something of the sort is brought up.


Well, this is just observation, so I could be wrong . . .

I think it's an issue of how long people have been playing the game. I notice a lot of new players don't last very long; it's natural in gaming, but I think more so with recent changes and for reasons others have mentioned, and - when you're new - everything "coming soon" isn't a problem, as everything's new and there's so much to do and explore. You also trust 'coming soon', as you have no basis for comparison in terms of timescale, as you have no idea that 'coming soon' has been that way for years, plus you expect it to be resolved maybe later on in the game.

So then you get people who carry on playing and get to end-game, so to speak . . . the game is then about waiting for the EF stories, or self-imposed challenges . . . one person may want to max all their renown, one wants to collect 7 of every item, one wants to grind rare connections . . . at that point you start looking for closure/completion, in a sense. You look back and realise how much was never completed . . .

If you've invested x years into a game, potentially hundreds of dollars/pounds (very fair price, yes, but bear in mind a lot of people are used to 'one-off' prices to pay for the game itself, and - while the extras are optional - you eventually come to need the extras just to have something to do as there's no other free content). It's why I think the often repeated idea of making EF stories free after a year or two could be a great way of keeping new players playing, while still honouring paying and long-term players, and continuing to make profit. In short, it becomes frustrating as you're paying with time and cash and have a list of unfinished content, which you can't complete despite wanting to complete.

The few newcomers stick around eventually get to this point, build and build up in numbers, and - whereas before one end-game player made one complaint, suddenly you have ten end-game players and they see and also go "huh, that's right", and the more people that reach end-game, the more that agree or make it vocal . . . so the amount of times it gets brought up will probably only increase.
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Anne Auclair
Anne Auclair
Posts: 2215

10/19/2016
If its just a question of money, perhaps they should have a kickstarter to dispense with the FL content/update backlog?

--
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phryne
phryne
Posts: 1351

10/19/2016
I would so love it if FBG put some sort of roadmap online (they did this for Sunless Sea) with a broad outline of things they want to address in FL (content and mechanics) in, say, the coming 12 or 6 months. If they do have a plan (and I believe they do), that shouldn't be too much to ask. I acknowledge some players might like this air of mystery surrounding FBG's doings but I quite honestly don't.

--
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genesis
genesis
Posts: 924

10/18/2016
Sir Frederick Tanah-Chook wrote:

One: they've done a hell of a lot for us over the years, in terms of producing fun new content, listening to feedback, fixing bugs, and rewarding our participation. I don't think it's fair to assume deliberate disrespect or malice when they fail to meet your expectations,


Very true indeed. Which is why, even though I do share some of the frustrations, I feel it's essential to give FBG maximal benefit of a doubt.

Two: They're keeping a lot of balls in the air, and keeping us informed of everything can go just as wrong as keeping things mum, if not moreso. It can mean, explicitly or implicitly, making promises that they can't - even shouldn't - keep.


While this is true, this argument runs the risk of being taken to an absurd conclusion. I don't think anyone is saying that we need to be informed of everything.

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Keeping track of incomplete content and loose ends in Fallen London
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Ian Hart
Ian Hart
Posts: 437

10/18/2016
I have recommended many people to the game, and half-finished features is definitely a pain point that turns a lot of them away.

Of course, the half-related topic (unfinished content) is what has turned away many of the players I have recommended who have finished all the existing content, (in one case, on two different accounts) and just can no longer find interest in stories that don't seem to be going anywhere.

Me and my one friend who still plays are Exceptional Friends, and the new content all the time is fun for us, but content that "matters" (free or not) is what they find lacking.

All of this, of course, is just feedback from my very limited sample size. Personally I'm an exceptional friend twice over and extremely satisfied, though I would certainly also be excited for continuing and/or refining the "permanent" storylines.

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Saevitia
Saevitia
Posts: 58

10/19/2016
Harlocke wrote:
I think the problem is that very little attention has been given to end game grinding. After a while the game becomes just waiting for exceptional stories, grinding echoes towards cider, and roleplaying to break up the monotony in between. For the most part I think that's OK, we can't expect the dense story of the early game to continue forever. But there could be a little more care to make grinding interesting.

Perhaps storylets could unlock at 50k echoes, 100k echoes, 150k echoes, to mark your progress towards buying cider and encourage you to continue. ... There could be slow building long term stories like seeking, but that do not destroy your character. Imagine a mechanic like marsh-mired, that encourages you to come back once a week to progress a story, that provides a slow dribble of lore and intrigue that lasts for years, albeit in a brief once a week morsel. It's okay for the end game grind to be a grind where nothing much happens, but there's s happy middle ground between the rich densely packed story of early game and "go buy cider! See you in two years!"

I don't know how much I agree with this. I despise grinding as much as anyone, I think (being an old MUD/Everquest/World of Warcraft player will do that), but the "end game grinding" here is pretty much solely for self-imposed challenges. Mine always had a very clear purpose: Become a Shattering Force; get all the four-card lodgings in time to upgrade them with holiday events; go NORTH. Extra snippets, especially one-offs, tossed in among them would suffer the same issue as rare successes during a grind: players miss them and never even realize it. Clicking through the same loop to burn your candles knowing you have another 1000 or whatever actions to go doesn't lend itself to making sure you aren't arbitrarily clicking through new and unexpected lore tidbits.

The mechanic that would most appeal to me -- which hardly seems reasonable to ask for, if I'm being honest -- is to effectively "rebirth" your character. Wipe the slate clean, keep 1/4 of each of your skill values and unique items (such as from EF content), maybe a fraction of your cash total, and begin again from New Newgate. I'd consider it something like the "scion" option from Sunless Sea. But, again, the mechanics for this on the back-end, plus the unexpected issues that would arise, are unknown and unlikely to make it really "worth" the effort when there are so many other things vying for attention.

(Among which are, I assume: Bugs in Sunless Sea from new content, bugs in Zubmariner from release, dealing with server/latency issues, testing/releasing forthcoming EF content, figuring out whether new Hallowmas content is actually going to burn everything down in a of Correspondence-riddled firestorm, resolving issues in the iOS/Android apps, resolving issues in the browser experience induced by the existence of the iOS/Android apps, trying to find those notes written on napkins from That Night in That One Pub when everybody decided how the Ambitions were going to eventually wrap up, whether "more advanced professions" were going to be implemented at any point and how they would work, etc.)


Harlocke wrote:
There could be expanded roleplaying options for end game players, beyond the old coffee and chess, so they can interact in new and fresh ways over the months and years.




I think this already exists in the forums. Letters exist in-game, too, but the FL interface is not designed for a full-blown multiplayer experience. Roleplaying and whatnot beyond what is already in-game is better served through an external system for the sake of simplicity AND character/player freedom. Even then, what my character does in RP -- and what she even possesses -- is different from what is "in-game". She frequently possesses a number of items in FL that I think would not actually be in-hand, that are solely to advance certain storylines. This is, I presume, fairly standard for a lot of players.

---

Tangentially-related shameless begging: I'll be honest, the thing *I* most want is more Port Carnelian. I want to live there. I want to start a revolution there, become one of the tigers, and fight a war against snakes behind mirrors. I don't anticipate anything like that ever being an option -- I don't consider FL to be the sort of game experience where "player housing" and "hometown" options would ever be more than what they are -- but I'd add it to the wishlist given a chance. In the meantime, I'll keep doing all that in out-of-game RP.

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genesis
genesis
Posts: 924

10/20/2016
Eh, I dunno. Questions of variety and content come up constantly. I feel it's a distinct issue from the question of outstanding projects/features and one that the developers (with very good reason) are less likely to engage with publicly. So by focusing on that we are only diminishing our ability to engage the developers on the questions of unfinished projects.

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Mr Sables
Mr Sables
Posts: 597

10/21/2016
MidnightVoyager wrote:
I've honestly forgotten what happened in a lot of stuff on the unfinished stories list, to the point where I'd have to reread it to know what's going on. But I can't actually do that because of how the journal works.



Ironically, I think fixing the journal was another promised feature . . .

Around the time they got rid of 'reminiscing' for Ambitions, I vaguely remember them saying: "it's fine, because we'll be sorting out the journals, so it won't interfere with anyone and their ambitions". Funnily enough, they removed the 'reminiscing', which has caused nothing but trouble for my alt . . . I mean, I don't know, maybe there was a reason for removing that feature, but it seemed like everyone liked or wanted it . . . it's like with the cost changes; feels like they 'fix' what's not broken, then leave broken what needs to be fixed.
+3 link
Kaijyuu
Kaijyuu
Posts: 1047

10/18/2016
I'll pop in and comment that it seems FBG has a rather laid back atmosphere where people work on what they want when they want. This is great! I support such methods. Were I working in game development in a creative role, I certainly wouldn't want to be tied down to projects one at a time until their bitter conclusion. I'd want to be chasing after new shinies all the time, which would keep my morale, enthusiasm, and creativity in good shape.

That said, some spring cleaning every once in a while to tie up loose threads is still a good idea. Dialing things a wee bit more toward finishing features would be an improvement to the game. Given the game's popularity and reception so far though, I don't think there's any huge issues to be dealt with; just minor improvements.

--
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Harlocke
Harlocke
Posts: 506

10/19/2016
Robin Alexander wrote:

So then you get people who carry on playing and get to end-game, so to speak . . . the game is then about waiting for the EF stories, or self-imposed challenges . . . one person may want to max all their renown, one wants to collect 7 of every item, one wants to grind rare connections . . . at that point you start looking for closure/completion, in a sense. You look back and realise how much was never completed . . .
ite wanting to complete.


I think the problem is that very little attention has been given to end game grinding. After a while the game becomes just waiting for exceptional stories, grinding echoes towards cider, and roleplaying to break up the monotony in between. For the most part I think that's OK, we can't expect the dense story of the early game to continue forever. But there could be a little more care to make grinding interesting.

Perhaps storylets could unlock at 50k echoes, 100k echoes, 150k echoes, to mark your progress towards buying cider and encourage you to continue. There could be expanded roleplaying options for end game players, beyond the old coffee and chess, so they can interact in new and fresh ways over the months and years. There could be slow building long term stories like seeking, but that do not destroy your character. Imagine a mechanic like marsh-mired, that encourages you to come back once a week to progress a story, that provides a slow dribble of lore and intrigue that lasts for years, albeit in a brief once a week morsel. It's okay for the end game grind to be a grind where nothing much happens, but there's s happy middle ground between the rich densely packed story of early game and "go buy cider! See you in two years!"

--
I welcome social actions, and can visit your salon as an author.

http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Harlocke
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Cthonius
Cthonius
Posts: 362

10/19/2016
Ah but them how many players do the cider grind and such? In fact that kind of thing was explicitly addressed, I think by Alexis. "We could write content for Ubergoats and cider, but how many players would that be for" or something like that. The early game is the most important part to keep new players interested and invested. Only a vocal minority here would benefit from the high level stories you suggest.

--
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Cthonius
Cthonius
Posts: 362

10/19/2016
It was still a huge piece of content, that the fans wanted, and even lived up to promises/expectations. But it's its own beast.

I have to wonder if questions of this nature, on updates, were so common in the past. Seems multiple times a week something of the sort is brought up.

--
Cthonius, gone North. Gone.

Oneiropompus, a Scarlet Saint, eager to help make your dreams realities. Accepting all social requests for now.
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Harlocke
Harlocke
Posts: 506

10/18/2016
I wonder if it would make sense to conclude some lingering plots by making the ending an Exceptional Story. Then the money/resources that goes into writing a monthly ES could be used to tie up the main storylines, and do it in a complex and built out way from both a narrative and gameplay standpoint.

Obviously that isn't ideal for non-paying players, but if the choice is the stories ending for money or never ending at all, I think it makes sense to pay FBG to conclude stories. And perhaps the endings could be written in both free and ES varieties. Free players would get a much simpler version of the ending, that leaves out the more built out ES elements and has less stellar rewards, but at least it would still end for them. And they could pay fate later should they ever wish to replay the ending and experience the full content.

--
I welcome social actions, and can visit your salon as an author.

http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Harlocke
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genesis
genesis
Posts: 924

10/18/2016
Harlocke wrote:
I wonder if it would make sense to conclude some lingering plots by making the ending an Exceptional Story. Then the money/resources that goes into writing a monthly ES could be used to tie up the main storylines, and do it in a complex and built out way from both a narrative and gameplay standpoint


I think it's important to distinguish incomplete *content* (see, e.g., my signature) and unfinished functional changes (eg marriage, favours/renown, costs etc). The arguments for and against grumbling are very different for these two aspects.

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Keeping track of incomplete content and loose ends in Fallen London
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MrBurnside
MrBurnside
Posts: 188

10/19/2016
I agree that changing priorities and changing profitability are probably the biggest contributors to these. Sunless Sea had a ton of sales and that can really shift a companies perception of what it makes sense to focus on.

The extremely slow server response have led to me taking a break for about a month now. Bandwidth is expensive. Good servers are expensive. Telling FBG that they "just" need to spend more money is ridiculous. I know this, but it's just too slow during peak times. I don't know how much FL brings in each month, but I doubt it's as good an investment as new (premium) games. It wouldn't really surprise me to find out that FL is as much a branding/advertising expense as it is a profit center.

In that context, finishing up stories and features might well be a waste of resources for them.

I hate it, but I can't help but suspect that it's true.
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suinicide
suinicide
Posts: 2409

10/19/2016
What slow response times? Its basically always a good speed for me. (Then again, time zones)

But I do feel they have been pretty good recently about free content, its just that its all been seasonal. (The election, what sounds like a fairly large hallowmas revamp, both in less than half a year, and wasn't SMEN within that time too?)
edited by suinicide on 10/19/2016

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RIP suinicide, stuck in a well. Still has it under control.
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Meradine Heidenreich
Meradine Heidenreich
Posts: 468

10/19/2016
Anne Auclair wrote:
If its just a question of money, perhaps they should have a kickstarter to dispense with the FL content/update backlog?


I like that idea -- been wanting to put money into a kickstarter since I started playing. There is one coming up, of course...

--
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The Starveling kit
Gobbled up the bit
of cheese on my tray ..
"O Weh!"

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Optimatum
Optimatum
Posts: 3666

10/19/2016
suinicide wrote:
What slow response times? Its basically always a good speed for me. (Then again, time zones)

But I do feel they have been pretty good recently about free content, its just that its all been seasonal. (The election, what sounds like a fairly large hallowmas revamp, both in less than half a year, and wasn't SMEN within that time too?)
edited by suinicide on 10/19/2016

SMEN was also done in one or two weeks by Alexis on his own working from an unknown amount of already finished material. I wouldn't say that counts towards what Failbetter has added as a whole, especially given that I wouldn't call SMEN free :P

--
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