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WireWolf
WireWolf
Posts: 29

9/24/2016
Well damn, I don't think anyone was expecting that. What does everyone else think? I missed the EGX Show, so I all I've done is read the Blog. On the one hand this is sort of exciting and a really neat concept. On the other hand though it's a HUGE change.

My biggest question though?
Is this moving the whole plot forward for Fallen London as a setting? Or is this some sort of alternate timeline?
edited by WireWolf on 9/24/2016

--
When Mortals from the path of Honour stray,and strong passions over reason sway,
What are they then but Brutes? ‘Tis vice alone that constitutes. Th’enchanting wand and magic bowl,
The exterior form of Man they wear,But are in fact both Wolf and Bear,The transformation’s in the Soul.
+3 link
Hannah Flynn
Hannah Flynn
Administrator
Posts: 412

9/26/2016
I'm glad to see the announcement has grabbed all of you!


Discussion and speculation are very welcome but be aware that it is entirely speculation at this stage (based on very little actual information!) and please take all of it with a pinch of salt.


More info and plot details will be revealed as we move through pre-production and get ready for the Kickstarter in Feb.

--
Wields the news canon, aboard the hype train.
+11 link
Anne Auclair
Anne Auclair
Posts: 2215

9/29/2016
Glimpses of the High Wilderness, as revealed by the Merchant Venturer storyline in Sunless Sea.

[spoiler]The Nature and Perils of the Environment

Light is not constant in the High Wilderness, even with the Judgments at the peak of their power, which necessitates a ready supply of artificial light. The High Wilderness is also very cold and home to dreadful voices, both of which must be protected against. Human travelers will find themselves longing for the surface of the Earth and will treasure anything that helps them remember it. The cold winds and darkness will painfully transform whoever ventures into it. This sounds a lot like the Neath and as the Judgments fail and heavens grow darker this resemblance will only grow.

Something Bright (Scintillack)

"Thank you. Where I'm going... there will be light enough, eventually. But we'll need something we can manage ourselves."


Something Dark (Darkdrop Coffee)

"This will put fire in our belly. In all our bellies. We'll need that: it's cold out there."


Something Spicy (Mutersalt)

"We won't need it for its taste. There are voices which must be drowned."


Something Azure (Carnelian Sapphires)

"That blue! I will confess something to you. This is my least practical purchase - but I wanted something to remember the blue. Thank you. Cheap at the price."

wrote:
A Place Above

You are through! All around you the blistering, wonderful night of the High Wilderness. The stars watch you balefully. The winds of nowhere tear at your hair, strip away your skin.



Dealing with the Inhabitants

The Venturer expects that he will have to frighten or conspire with the High Wildernesses’ various inhabitants. Becoming fluent in the fiery intricacies of the Correspondence will also be essential to the success of his venture.

Something Savage (Hunting Trophies)

"This will do nicely. I need persuasive threats, not weapons - and these are persuasive."


Something Difficult (A Fluke Core)

“The Flukes. The greatest of the shapelings. And the Lorns are the greatest of the Flukes. By accepting this Core, I make myself an accomplice in a crime… but perhaps, in a sense, this one will return home. Perhaps.”


Something Silky (Sorrow Spider Silk)

"Spiders. Spiders... they are the first to know the speech of stars. I will be the last."



Commercial Opportunities

The trade the Masters carry out in London is but a faint shadow of the heavenly commerce they practiced in the High Wilderness. This commerce has its own currencies and is highly rule based. The markets are large and voracious and to successfully profit a merchant (or a combination of merchants) must be prepared to satisfy many different desires. There is, notably, a demand for Neath products in the High Wilderness. The soul trade also apparently originates in the heavens, which is pretty significant. In the Neath the soul trade is entirely driven by the mysterious designs of Hell and the avarice of the Pentacoast Apes - but souls apparently have a whole other purpose and value that we have yet to see and are created/sold on demand. It's also hinted that one can map out the heavens by what can be sold where.

The Venturers’ Scheme

“Trade exists beyond the Gate, in the High Wilderness. The Bazaar itself has told me this. It will earn the currencies of heaven. I will return, strong with strange riches. Will you come with me? I don’t know when we’ll return. But when we do…we will be armoured in glory.”


Something Sorrowful (Human Skulls)

"Seven. It's always seven. I don't know why. But if we are to profit by this scheme, we have to hew to the rules."


Something Romantic (Romantic Literature)

“Beyond the gate, there will be many appetites. I cannot even be sure how much use these will be - but I can hope.”


Something Warming (Zoup)

"It's a specialist taste. But where I'm going, there are specialist customers."


Something Durable (Stygian Ivory)

"All these are lessons. Contours of history. There will be scholars and marvellers... but enough of that.”


Something Deep (Strange Catches)

"Thank you. This is perfect. I can buy cave-trout down at the docks any day of the week, but I'll need something a little different. Something for the shapelings."


A Place Above

The Venturer is laughing: Your cargo unfolds like a map.

“First,” the Venturer says, “The Forge of Souls. Let’s see who they’ll make for us.”
[/spoiler]
edited by Anne Auclair on 9/29/2016

--
http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Anne%20Auclair
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Rupho Schartenhauer
Rupho Schartenhauer
Posts: 775

9/27/2016
Don't get me wrong, I'm totally hyped about Sunless Skies, but there's one thing I would like even more: new free content in FL, especially conclusions for some of those unfinished stories that have been around for ages (Dilmun Club, Last Constable, Labyrinth of Tigers coils, Light Fingers ambition update...)

I was hoping FB might take some time to address these things after the release of Zubmariner. So, I'd really appreciate a little heads-up whether anything like that is planned for the coming months, Hannah? I'm not looking for specifics, just something like "Yeah, that's definitely on our agenda" or "Nope, not something we're thinking about right now"...

--
Old hand, still occasionally playing.
+6 link
Appolonia
Appolonia
Posts: 248

9/26/2016
I think the folks at Fallen London are such good writers and attentive to the community that they will see a thread like this and make sure there is a good bridge between the games that does not undo our choices in FL.

I share the concerns expressed here.

I would hope the game does not have a premise that invalidates FL stories (like saying that the Neath was destroyed, or that our Sun was a star that was killed and no one can live on the earth's Surface anymore). Clearly many (if not most) FL players would work hard to prevent anything of the kind, and it would make our on-going stories peculiar or meaningless or impossible.

Likewise, FL has specific destinies with specific timelines, and the July story introduced timing that ought to be honored. At least one destiny introduces an a specific fifteen year timeline, which could be more than fifteen years from the present date, but can't be less.

If the writers ever chose to invalidate a destiny, I would hope they would make this a really interesting player event where people with that destiny have some sort of vision, and the chance to pick a new destiny at no cost.

At the very least, a relatively minimal amount of stage setting at the beginning of the player experience of Sunless Skies could leave open the possibility that it is a dream of future that may be, rather than a thing which *is*.

Or to make it explicit that the forces which brought about some portion of the Liberation of Night were significantly thwarted in the Neath (which continues as the thriving city we currently play in, and not a lightless post-apocalyptic battlefield of endless predation, though that again remains a possible outcome in the future), and the conflict between those forces continues in the Neath and in the skies.

--
http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Appolonia%20VonRavenscroft
+5 link
John Moose
John Moose
Posts: 276

9/24/2016
I'm also a bit worried, since this feels like it could act as the "word of god" ending to all our FL characters. I'm also not sure how easy it is to make a game about the High Wilderness without it being a clump of spoilers to new players of FL and SS. But screw it, FBG's got a great crew figuring out all the problems, I'll just concentrate on being excited about tilting my vanes and zooming into the void.

What I really, really wish for the game is the option of non-human player characters. The world of FL has some brilliant creatures lurking in the alleys, and I've always felt it was a bit of a shame you can't experience the Neath from their perspective. (Of course this would be tons and tons of extra writing, so I understand why it isn't really viable in FL.) However, in the Wilderness I could easily see the amount of limbs or eyes you possess being as immaterial as gender in the Neath - hence my request:

Please, please oh PLEASE let us play as Spacebats!
edited by John Moose on 9/24/2016
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MidnightVoyager
MidnightVoyager
Posts: 822

9/25/2016
I may be optimistic here, but I hope this doesn't mess with the actual Fallen London content too much. There's a tier of professions, final ambition updates, and the penultimate one for Light Fingers among other things that I've been looking forward to.

--
Midnight Voyager - A blood-cousin to predators. Collector of beasts. Affably mad.
+5 link
Akernis
Akernis
Posts: 245

12/3/2016
I too am rather protective of my character and the world she is living in and don't want it overshadowed or worse overruled by arbitrary canon. That said though, I think that Failbetter is more than aware of these potential problems, and will do all that they can to create an fantastic game full of riveting stories while preserving what is almost certainly their most popular and dedicated game, Fallen London.
I am especially sure of this since I recently read the blog post Alexis made about end-game and Destinies where he goes into that kind of things.

The second issue, of the mysteries of Fallen London being more readily accessible will probably be unavoidable. As the very existence of Judgments, the Great Chain etc. will almost certainly be highly relevant. That said I think that for by far the most part Sunless Sea did an excellent job of continuing tradition and keeping the mysteries there quite discreet, and even better add a lot of new ones independently; some of which have even started to become relevant in Fallen London as well, making the two games supplementing each other rather nicely.

I suppose that there is the risk of the scale of events being eclipsed now that we will be 'running' around in the High Wilderness. But to be fair, baring the potential events of the Destinies, Fallen London was never a game of grand schemes and epic consequences. It is a personal journey of discovery mystery etc, and not about shaping the world one way or the other. No choice we make in the game alter the state of the world in it self, all story-lines and Exceptional stories can be played or ignored without affection the presence or state of the various factions of London. The only event to date that have had some larger implications for London have been the recent election, and even here changes are so small that they barely impact the rest of the game. So any game that isn't a focused journey in the same manner would be grander in scope.
Even Sunless Sea was already much bigger than Fallen London, and you could make large permanent changes to what happened in some ports, or even the entirety of the Neath (albeit often subtly) through enough Supremacy for one faction or the other.


While I can't help but be guarded with the potential complications that Sunless Skies could bring, I am optimistic that the writers do know what they are doing and will create a game that will add to from the joy and excitement it is to play around in Fallen London, rather than ruin it.

--
Vena's profile - http://fallenlondon.com/Profile/Akernis
+5 link
Akernis
Akernis
Posts: 245

1/29/2017
Yae wrote:
Gotta admit sunless skies seems not really alluring. I mean yes, the writing will be fantastic again,

And that in and off itself will probably be enough for half of us to get the game. The wider mechanics are simple a tool driving that narrative along. Of course, it does not hurt the least if said mechanics are enjoyable as well.

Yae wrote:
but it seems more like a cheap copy of sunless sea set in the skies, replacing ships with aircrafts.



Correction: replacing ships with trains wink
Also, the general game mechanics will be the same, but that does not make it a 'cheap copy', simply a follow-up in the same genre, and I doubt it will be any cheaper than Sunless Sea.

--
Vena's profile - http://fallenlondon.com/Profile/Akernis
+4 link
Lmaoboat
Lmaoboat
Posts: 31

11/28/2016
A lesson I hope FB takes from Sunless Sea: Even though their strength is in the stories, you still spend 90% of the time with the rest of the game, so I think it's really important the core gameplay stands on its own.
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Vozw
Vozw
Posts: 8

12/3/2016
I would add my own voice to those concerned about Sunless Skies invalidating Fallen London characters; eclipsing Fallen London, so to speak.

I am also concerned about Sunless Skies over-dispensing in making clear the mysteries of Fallen London relating to bats, space, and other planets; potentially eclipsing it in a second way, as Sunless Skies becomes a superior place to seek out answers and Fallen London becomes small-scale, with mysteries that had once been exclusive to it now laid bare in Skies.

I am thirdly concerned about Sunless Skies' scale being so much greater than Fallen London's that actions in Fallen London will feel minuscule and unimportant by comparison; what does this accomplishment or victory on the scale of Fallen London matter, when in Sunless Skies characters are doing things on the scale of the cosmos?

I suppose the correct way to go about this would be to find seven ways Sunless Skies could potentially eclipse Fallen London, but three will have to do.

--
A seeker of Seeking.
http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Vozw
+4 link
A Dimness
A Dimness
Posts: 613

9/25/2016
Game seems interesting, the setting and plot seem a bit derailed. I'm pretty opposed to revealing late-game content like the Judgements in the teaser. That being said, who says we'll be killing judgements? Perhaps we're supposed to be saving them, hmm?

A bit of rampant speculation here, but what if animescense doesn't only affect [spoiler] souls, but also fully developed judgements? [/spoiler]

--
A truth so strange it can only be lied into existence
+4 link
WireWolf
WireWolf
Posts: 29

9/24/2016
John Moose wrote:
I'm also a bit worried, since this feels like it could feel like the "word of god" ending to all our FL characters. I'm also not sure how easy it is to make a game about the High Wilderness without it being a clump of spoilers to new players of FL and SS. But screw it, FBG's got a great crew figuring out all the problems, I'll just concentrate on being excited about tilting my vanes and zooming into the void.

What I really, really wish for the game is the option of non-human player characters. The world of FL has some brilliant creatures lurking in the alleys, and I've always felt it was a bit of a shame you can't experience the Neath from their perspective. (Of course this would be tons and tons of extra writing, so I understand why it isn't really viable in FL.) However, in the Wilderness I could easily see the amount of limbs or eyes you possess being as immaterial as gender in the Neath - hence my request:

Please, please oh PLEASE let us play as Spacebats!

As I said, I absolutely love the concept. But I really hope this is an alternate timeline or maybe a possible future/destiny rather then this being the 'Canon Ending' to Fallen London/Sunless Sea.

Also still kinda bummed no 'Castles in the Roof', I was really hoping to fight Starved Men and Alien Bugs in an Airship. ^.^;


  • --
    When Mortals from the path of Honour stray,and strong passions over reason sway,
    What are they then but Brutes? ‘Tis vice alone that constitutes. Th’enchanting wand and magic bowl,
    The exterior form of Man they wear,But are in fact both Wolf and Bear,The transformation’s in the Soul.
  • +4 link
    Diptych
    Diptych
    Administrator
    Posts: 3416

    9/24/2016
    I admit I was wondering the same thing myself. Sunless Sea expanded Fallen London's world - this seems more like a replacement.

    --
    Sir Frederick, the Libertarian Esotericist. Lord Hubris, the Bloody Baron.
    Juniper Brown, the Ill-Fated Orphan. Esther Ellis-Hall, the Fashionable Fabian.
    +4 link
    Morgan Joylighter
    Morgan Joylighter
    Posts: 26

    9/25/2016
    Also, this excites me beyond measure as a relative latecomer to FL/SS because this is the first time I get to experience a big new story/lore party while actually having some understanding of what has come before...I started out being clueless in SS and then being slightly less clueless in FL but now I at least understand the basic plot and the many, many players...

    --
    Feel free to socialize me smile Just know I might not have any idea what I'm doing, because I'm (relatively) new and know (somewhat) more about lore than actual game mechanics. So if there are ways to take advantage of players through social actions, I might be a good mark wink Also a disciple of the Dawn Machine. Make of that what you will smile
    +4 link
    suinicide
    suinicide
    Posts: 2403

    9/26/2016
    Yes, but the LoN already seems to be happening. Your fallen london character's choices and destinies don't seem to have mattered. Because this is what's going to happen. (I'd like to clarify that I have no reluctance with sunless skies, and this just my understanding based on the thread)

    --
    http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/profile/sunnytime
    A gentleman seeking the liberation of knowledge, with a penchant for violence.
    RIP suinicide, stuck in a well. Still has it under control.
    +4 link
    Anne Auclair
    Anne Auclair
    Posts: 2215

    9/26/2016
    I posted this earlier on the Bazaar announcement thread, but it goes much better here.

    I voted for this when the card came up and I'm absolutely thrilled I wasn't the only one. I'll happily join the kickstarter effort when it happens ^_^

    What was the Sunless Sea kickstarters like anyway? I wasn't around when those happened.

    For me one of the most intriguing details is that the Empress is there and personally leading the whole thing. I wonder how the Empress came to make her decision to travel into the High Wilderness. Up to now she's been perfectly willing to let her Empire rot away while she nurses the Consort in her silent, shuttered up palace. Presiding over a massive new imperial project is a pretty big change. Did the Merchant Venturer come back and, much like Christopher Columbus and his stories of gold, bring the Empress tales of otherworldly power or medicine that would improve the Consorts state (this would be my first guess)? Or did something happen to drive her from the Neath? Well, whatever the reason, Her Enduring Majesty is about to take a big step into the limelight.

    One thing though, with the Empress there it's not hard to see how the New Empire quickly becomes authoritarian:
    Why is the Empress' Palace shuttered?
    Apparently the Empress doesn't like light. Or sudden movements, loud noises, foreigners, treason, peaches. When you're Empress, you can do this kind of thing.

    I'm not sure that the Judgments dying is all do to the Liberation btw. Naturally the Revolutionaries will do whatever they can however they can - but the High Wilderness is so UNCOMPREHENDINGLY VAST. I think in one of FL's Destinies Earth ends up likened to a little speck of sand on a large beach? The Judgments probably have many enemies, some of them fellow stars (the Judgments can kill one another after all), and the Neath isn't the only dark place in existence. The Sorrow Spiders came from one of those dark spaces, after all. Then there are all the things that are behind the mirrors (we only see some of the border places of that other place, which is just as vast as the High Wilderness).

    Contemplating the High Wildernesses vast scale, I was also very much intrigued by this detail here:
    Failbetter wrote:
    Our influences include: the science fiction of H G Wells and C S Lewis, the planetary romances of Leigh Brackett, Art Nouveau, Event Horizon, trains.

    Trains: everything having to do with trains! Like, that influence kind of stands out, doesn't it? And in a science fiction romance set in outer space! Normally when one imagines exploring outer space its with space ships. But trains are clearly going to be an important element.

    Does the High Wilderness have what amounts to a gigantic intergalactic railway network? Or is the New Empire building one? This wouldn't be out of character for the Victorian time period - the British Empire in India, Canada, and Africa was very much an empire of railroads, which allowed the overcoming and conquest of vast spaces (and destruction/plundering/enslavement of indigenous peoples by the British elite). Moving around in some sort of space railroad would allow Failbetter to represent the High Wildernesses sheer expanse and spacial diversity while at the same time ensuring that the time spent traversing said expanses and diversity won't become detrimental to the players enjoyment of the game.

    The trains might be the means of traveling between game/story locations, 80 Days style (taking the train being a story in itself). Or they might be the means of traveling between multiple game maps, which would then be explored Sunless Sea style (like, one map for the places around the Egg and another map for the Forge of Souls, with you zailing your ship around after getting off the train). Whichever it is, I'm sure it will be a lot of fun.

    --
    http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Anne%20Auclair
    +4 link
    Mr Sables
    Mr Sables
    Posts: 597

    9/27/2016
    Rupho Schartenhauer wrote:
    Don't get me wrong, I'm totally hyped about Sunless Skies, but there's one thing I would like even more: new free content in FL, especially conclusions for some of those unfinished stories that have been around for ages (Dilmun Club, Last Constable, Labyrinth of Tigers coils, Light Fingers ambition update...)

    I was hoping FB might take some time to address these things after the release of Zubmariner. So, I'd really appreciate a little heads-up whether anything like that is planned for the coming months, Hannah? I'm not looking for specifics, just something like "Yeah, that's definitely on our agenda" or "Nope, not something we're thinking about right now"...



    See, the cynic in me doesn't expect much on that front . . .

    I think I sent them an email once, asking - if it's an issue of time/money - whether the updates could be paid-for instead, but they said fairly that it wouldn't be right, as it'd sort of be changing the rules midway in the game (metaphorically speaking), and if you start something free, then the expectation is it should all be free. Just, everything seems to be focused on paying members at the moment . . . paid-for games, paid-for subscriptions . . . in the meantime, the festivals are free (which is something), but all other content just seems lost in limbo . . .

    Heck, I think one of the stories has been incomplete for at least over three years (I want to say six)? I'm not sure why it can't be that a story gets updated/completed every so many months, or even just - here and there - a new step gets added . . . I wouldn't mind if the whole game gets made into a paid-for thing, but - at the minute - it seems neither one thing or the other.

    I know FBG has to make money, but I would have thought complete storylines would draw in more free members into paying?
    edited by Robin Alexander on 9/27/2016
    +4 link
    Chris Gardiner
    Chris Gardiner
    Administrator
    Posts: 536

    9/28/2016
    Anne Auclair wrote:
    Is anyone familiar with the works of Leigh Brackett?


    Oh my god read read read

    The Secret of Sinharat
    The Ginger Star
    The Hounds of Skaith
    The Reavers of Skaith
    +3 link
    Mr Sables
    Mr Sables
    Posts: 597

    9/26/2016
    suinicide wrote:
    Yes, but the LoN already seems to be happening. Your fallen london character's choices and destinies don't seem to have mattered. Because this is what's going to happen. (I'd like to clarify that I have no reluctance with sunless skies, and this just my understanding based on the thread)



    And I can't speak for anyone else, but that's what annoys me . . .

    It's not just a matter of time, but real-life money, too. Like, I paid money for a specific destiny, into specific paths/branches/stories, and that RL money shaped my character into a specific person . . . I might not role-play like others, but my character is fleshed out and has a lot invested into him (especially time, as I think I've been playing daily for over a year now). If - massive emphasis on 'if' - this is a canon 'ending' to FL, it'd severely put me off paying any more money or time into the game, because . . . what's the point? My choices are meaningless, it's all defined for me, and my character doesn't exist in the world shaped in this 'sequel'.

    I'm trusting FBG, and - damn - the premise of exploring the stars seems amazing . . . I'll gladly invest in the kick-starter, assuming some fears are assuaged, and I'll even buy the game (once I get a new computer that can run it) . . . FBG makes amazing entertainment, listens to its fanbase, and actually respects its fans (which is a lot more than some companies, for sure). It's why I think they wouldn't just troll and go: "lol, your real-life money is a waste, as your destiny is meaningless, lulz!"

    So . . . yeah . . . that's my stance XD
    +3 link
    WireWolf
    WireWolf
    Posts: 29

    9/24/2016
    Sir Frederick Tanah-Chook wrote:
    I admit I was wondering the same thing myself. Sunless Sea expanded Fallen London's world - this seems more like a replacement.

    Hence why it's got me chasing my tail. It's actually a REALLY neat concept that I've even wondered about more then once after going through the Avid Horizon in Sunless Sea (I wrote done a broad spectrum of ideas elsewhere, had some fun playing around with it.) But also I'm a bit worried what this does to Fallen London as a setting, I love the gaslight fantasy world of the Neath and this big of a shakeup is worrisome.

    Also a little disappointed as I guess the Castles in the Roof Expansion from the old Kickstarter isn't going to get done. (I was crossing my fingers hoping that sales would have been good enough to warrant it after Zubmarine.)

  • edited by WireWolf on 9/24/2016

    --
    When Mortals from the path of Honour stray,and strong passions over reason sway,
    What are they then but Brutes? ‘Tis vice alone that constitutes. Th’enchanting wand and magic bowl,
    The exterior form of Man they wear,But are in fact both Wolf and Bear,The transformation’s in the Soul.
  • +3 link
    Ginneon Thursday
    Ginneon Thursday
    Posts: 258

    9/24/2016
    I have a sense Sunless Sky won't pick one destiny as canon. While London being plunged in darkness would certainly motivate colonisation of the High Wilderness, the populace gaining some degree of immortality could just as easily embolden the Empire to expand to the stars. FB may even sync profiles such that one's destiny changes the story's background at the outset of the game.
    edited by Ginneon Thursday on 9/24/2016

    --
    Ginneon Thursday: Revelrous Professor of Benthic
    Departments of Mycoenology, Lepidoptery
    +3 link
    Emain Ablach
    Emain Ablach
    Posts: 339

    9/25/2016
    Ooooh, it will be so interesting ! At last we will walk the path of diamonds, and breathe the cold laws of the frozen realm of the stars. I'm really curious to discover the inhabitants of such a place. What lurks in the High Wilderness ?

    --
    Went NORTH. Got salted. Never came back. We won't remember him.

    http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Emain%20Ablach
    +3 link
    suinicide
    suinicide
    Posts: 2403

    9/26/2016
    The reluctance seems to be "My character is against the revolution of night, and by making it happen you ignore all my choices, in a choice based game."

    --
    http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/profile/sunnytime
    A gentleman seeking the liberation of knowledge, with a penchant for violence.
    RIP suinicide, stuck in a well. Still has it under control.
    +3 link
    Catherine Raymond
    Catherine Raymond
    Posts: 2365

    9/25/2016
    Somehow, Midnight, I doubt Failbetter would be so reckless as to damage the very product that made its reputation for quality in the first place.

    --
    Cathy Raymond
    http://fallenlondon.com/Profile/cathyr19355

    Catherine Raymond aka Mrs. Rykar Malkus http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Catherine%20Raymond (Gone NORTH)
    +3 link
    Diptych
    Diptych
    Administrator
    Posts: 3416

    9/26/2016
    On the one hand, I most certainly trust FBG's judgement (if you'll pardon the inadvertent pun.) On the other hand, well, many a studio has decided to shake up its franchise by rebooting the universe following some sort of cataclysmic, society-destroying event. Deadlands had the post-apocalyptic Hell on Earth and the, er, post-Earth Lost Colony. EverQuest II was set in the ravaged ruins of the original EverQuest. In short, "burn everything and start again" is an established tool of the writer's craft.

    --
    Sir Frederick, the Libertarian Esotericist. Lord Hubris, the Bloody Baron.
    Juniper Brown, the Ill-Fated Orphan. Esther Ellis-Hall, the Fashionable Fabian.
    +3 link
    colinsapherson
    colinsapherson
    Posts: 190

    9/29/2016
    I'll be quite upset if the home base isn't called 'Flying London'.

    --
    http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Colin%20Sapherson%2c%20Lord%20President%20of%20the%20Council
    Available for Knife & Candle Moon League matches, Tournaments of lilies and other social actions (including boxed cats and photographers).
    http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Strangewheys~Wandering
    http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/RUSKIN~WARE
    +3 link
    tbeaz161
    tbeaz161
    Posts: 29

    10/12/2016
    Just noticed this in the east ending for Sunless Sea:

    "Green-and-gold and glory. This is the last horizon; the one that tempted an emissary, a pawn of the fierce pale thing in darkness. But there is always another horizon. There is a Sunless Sky."

    So clearly hints have been around for a bit eh?
    edited by tbeaz161 on 10/12/2016
    +3 link
    John Moose
    John Moose
    Posts: 276

    1/30/2017
    As someone somewhere said in regards to Sunless Sea, when you spend 90% of the game travelling from one story to another, the gameplay indeed has to be good enough to keep the experience enjoyable. However, FBG seems to be very aware that the mechanics weren't to everyone's liking and are using what they learned last time to improve the experience (especially battles should be getting quite an overhaul.) This time, FBG already has Sunless Sea to use as a basis and to learn from, which is why i'm happy with the choice to do a sequel instead of something entirely new - so much work would go into just creating the new game mechanics and have them turn up who knows how well, instead of improving on a tried and tested mechanic.

    On another subject, I'd love it if there was an option for more difficult navigation. The sense of feeling "lost" between the beacons of light was always rather dulled for me in SS after learning the map, because I always had a GPS system telling me where exactly I am. An option to turn off the arrow on the map maybe, or instead of a black map that turns blue where you've been, just a black map where locations appear as you discover them, so you get a general idea of which way you came to the new area, but no precise way of knowing where you are without using landmarks.

    I apologise in advance since I feel like I might be spamming this thread with kooky ideas in the near future, but I'm getting rather excited as the KS draws near. Please tell me to stop when I start a post "Regarding my earlier suggestions 1, 5 and 17..."
    +3 link
    John Moose
    John Moose
    Posts: 276

    1/29/2017
    I'd like it if getting good officers was a bit more difficult this time around. In Sunless Sea one ends up rather quickly with a very reliable crew, all professionals in their fields, and the more unusual choices - the chronicler, the deviless - are just useless. I like the idea of a semi-qualified captain steering a ship/train of crewmen of questionable skill, making an _actual_ engineer something the captain really learns to value. Limits to officers would also be nice, since it breaks my immersion somewhat to have a crew of one, supported by 10 officers who don't eat or drink. More conflict/interaction between crew members would also be nice.
    +3 link
    Anne Auclair
    Anne Auclair
    Posts: 2215

    12/8/2016
    I'm not worried about Sunless Sky replacing Fallen London.

    I played Sunless Sea before I got into Fallen London. I remember initially finding most of the references to Fallen London's mysteries to be equally baffling, marvelous, or menacing. It was actually a really cool experience, but it took a while to piece together what was going on. And certain references and mysteries, especially those involving the Masters and the Bazaar, remained utterly incomprehensible until I played Fallen London and got a sense of its street layout, social conflicts, and major personalities. When I did get into Fallen London these interconnections between Fallen London and Sunless Sea ended up enhancing both games, making the shared world feel larger and deeper.

    I suspect it's the same for Exceptional Friends who haven't played Sunless Sea. For them, the increasing number of Sunless Sea elements in Fallen London's exceptional stories are no doubt as baffling or mysterious as the many FL references in Sunless Sea. For example, "what the hell is the Dawn Machine?!" seems to be a frequent reoccurring question whenever the New Sequence makes an appearance.

    The same dynamic is very much in evidence with Sunless Sea and Sunless Sky. Sunless Sea has given us quite a few glimpses of the High Wilderness, with more being added in Zubmariner. As was the case with Sunless Sea's glimpses of Fallen London, these images of the High Wilderness do more to raise questions than provide answers.

    I'm pretty sure that the same will happen with Sunless Sky and Fallen London. Fallen London's unique stories, particularly those surrounding the Bazaar, will remain it's own, and to get the fullest sense of what is really going on you're going to need to play all three games.
    edited by Anne Auclair on 12/9/2016

    --
    http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Anne%20Auclair
    +3 link
    Tyrone
    Tyrone
    Posts: 79

    1/2/2017
    Gosh darnit, I actually didn't outright hate the Judgements for one.
    +2 link
    Jamilah S. Wolf
    Jamilah S. Wolf
    Posts: 120

    12/8/2016
    This is an exciting development indeed. Perhaps it will serve as a supplement to Fallen London, or maybe as an unconquered wilderness that we must habituate and colonize. It would be especially cool if we could delegate a colony of some sort and interact with possible natives to test our diplomatic skill. Like Sunless Sea's Zubmariner, perhaps there's something above the Sunless Skies?...

    --

    Jamilah
    , a most fascinating Lady of the Neath who finds herself mingling with Society and aligning with Criminals. This Licentiate Extraordinaire would love to align with the Masters, given the chance. A Shattering Force.
    Huarwar Ceiswyr, a Welshman and detective lured to the Neath to Seek. The toll it has taken does not hide itself, nor does he bother to. On hiatus.

    Open to all actions, delicious friends. PM for hints Enigmatic.

    She wishes for nothing more than to be close to the Masters, for who else can unlock the Mysteries of the Neath?
    +2 link
    WireWolf
    WireWolf
    Posts: 29

    9/27/2016
    If this game were to take place a hundred years or more in the future or was said to be a 'And this *may* come to pass...' Sort of deal then I think it would alleviate a lot of the worry people are having. Mostly I worry because I love Fallen London's themes and overall setting and stamping a bit of a 'Finality' on it just seems sorta depressing.
    Granted, at this point with so little information this might just be needless hand wringing.

    --
    When Mortals from the path of Honour stray,and strong passions over reason sway,
    What are they then but Brutes? ‘Tis vice alone that constitutes. Th’enchanting wand and magic bowl,
    The exterior form of Man they wear,But are in fact both Wolf and Bear,The transformation’s in the Soul.
    +2 link
    Bluebeard
    Bluebeard
    Posts: 25

    9/26/2016
    I'm a bit skeptical regarding the setting for newcomers and new players though.

    I don't know much about the High Wilderness, but that setting seems rather "high end" and disorienting while Sunless Sea and Fallen London are way more down to earth: weird but more grounded in reality, with gradual exposition to the more weird stuff later.

    I just fear that new players will be thrown off by the weirdness.

    --
    Dark Blot - A not very gentlemanly gentlething
    +2 link
    The Dark Gentleman
    The Dark Gentleman
    Posts: 188

    9/25/2016
    The concept of this game has me quite excited. Beyond the idea of another story-rich world to explore, I'm interested to see who will populate the High Wilderness besides the Judgements. Will we find the original home of the Masters, meet other Couriers, discover wayward Axile exiles? Will we be welcomed into the Wilderness? Or shall I need to renew my membership to the Citizens for a Blood Space War?

    --
    The Dark Gentleman~ Social actions welcome. Menace reductions upon request. Newspaper interviews by appointment. Falconry by invitation only.

    "THE HOURS FEAR THE NAMES.
    THE NAMES FEAR THE LONG.
    THE LONG FEAR THE KNOW.
    ALL FEAR THE HOURS."
    +2 link
    Diptych
    Diptych
    Administrator
    Posts: 3416

    9/26/2016
    I suppose, the Neath being the Neath and Her Enduring Majesty being Her Enduring Majesty, Sunless Skies could be set ten, fifty, a hundred or five hundred years after Fallen London, with equal plausibility.

    --
    Sir Frederick, the Libertarian Esotericist. Lord Hubris, the Bloody Baron.
    Juniper Brown, the Ill-Fated Orphan. Esther Ellis-Hall, the Fashionable Fabian.
    +2 link
    Parelle
    Parelle
    Posts: 1084

    9/28/2016
    Chris Gardiner wrote:
    Anne Auclair wrote:
    Is anyone familiar with the works of Leigh Brackett?


    Oh my god read read read

    The Secret of Sinharat
    The Ginger Star
    The Hounds of Skaith
    The Reavers of Skaith


    Ah, excited enough that our admin posted without Word of God colored text, I see smile

    I just bumped into her work via reading the Big Sleep so I'm now quite curious about it!

    --
    Parelle, Lady Joseph Marlen. The Singular Librarian. A Midnighter, a Player of the Marvelous.
    pages from a dusty bookshop: a badly updated FL changelog | Useful Guidance and Explanations
    +2 link
    Parelle
    Parelle
    Posts: 1084

    9/27/2016
    Given the reference to C.S. Lewis, I suspect this may be involved:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Space_Trilogy

    --
    Parelle, Lady Joseph Marlen. The Singular Librarian. A Midnighter, a Player of the Marvelous.
    pages from a dusty bookshop: a badly updated FL changelog | Useful Guidance and Explanations
    +2 link
    Meradine Heidenreich
    Meradine Heidenreich
    Posts: 408

    9/27/2016
    If you live in the right place (one with life + 50 year copyright) like Canada, you can legally download the books from the fadedpage website. Sorry, I can't get a link to work.

    edited by Meradine Heidenreich on 9/27/2016
    edited by Meradine Heidenreich on 9/27/2016
    edited by Meradine Heidenreich on 9/27/2016

    --
    https://www.fallenlondon.com/profile/Meradine%20Heidenreich

    The Starveling kit
    Gobbled up the bit
    of cheese on my tray ..
    "O Weh!"

    No plant battles, please.
    +1 link
    Optimatum
    Optimatum
    Posts: 3540

    9/27/2016
    Rupho Schartenhauer wrote:
    Don't get me wrong, I'm totally hyped about Sunless Skies, but there's one thing I would like even more: new free content in FL, especially conclusions for some of those unfinished stories that have been around for ages (Dilmun Club, Last Constable, Labyrinth of Tigers coils, Light Fingers ambition update...)

    I was hoping FB might take some time to address these things after the release of Zubmariner. So, I'd really appreciate a little heads-up whether anything like that is planned for the coming months, Hannah? I'm not looking for specifics, just something like &quotYeah, that's definitely on our agenda&quot or &quotNope, not something we're thinking about right now&quot...


    There will be eventually a Last Constable storyline in Sunless Sea, perhaps released around Zubmariner - some of the qualities and such are already in the game files. Maybe there will be an update to the FL storyline at the same time.

    --
    Optimatum, a ruthless and merciful gentleman. No plant battles, Affluent Photographer requests, or healing offers; all other social actions welcome.

    Want a sip of Cider? Just say hi!

    PM me for information enigmatic or Fated. Though the forum please, not FL itself.
    +1 link
    Morgan Joylighter
    Morgan Joylighter
    Posts: 26

    9/27/2016
    Parelle wrote:
    Given the reference to C.S. Lewis, I suspect this may be involved:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Space_Trilogy


    This is one of my favorite novel series of all time, even more than Narnia smile And it does have a LOT of similarities to the FL/SS cosmology already. One of the reasons I'm drawn to both is that they constantly feature the mythologizing of history/science and the historicalization/scientification of myth.

    --
    Feel free to socialize me smile Just know I might not have any idea what I'm doing, because I'm (relatively) new and know (somewhat) more about lore than actual game mechanics. So if there are ways to take advantage of players through social actions, I might be a good mark wink Also a disciple of the Dawn Machine. Make of that what you will smile
    +1 link
    Hattington
    Hattington
    Posts: 131

    9/29/2016
    The Judgements have been portrayed in a fairly antagonistic light up until now-but if they're starting to die en masse, I wonder if they might just be desperate enough to try and hire human mercenaries of their own to combat whatever is killing them. What might a star have to offer as a reward?

    --
    Dreaded and judged
    +1 link
    maricolous
    maricolous
    Posts: 56

    9/26/2016
    Interestingly enough, while people are focusing a lot on the LoN and Dawn Machine aspects, the "7 Facts About Our Next Game" blog post only says that "a revolution has begun, and the stars are being murdered."

    While the use of the word revolution does bring in connotations of London's Actual Revolutionaries, there is still a whole lot of ambiguity in this message. The subtleties in the hierarchy of judgements and dragons and messengers are still largely unknown to us; for all we know this could be a revolution on a much higher end of the Great Chain, In which case most destinies continue to hold water as they're more concerned with Space bats and under.

    The who the what and the how of the stars being murdered is also completely veiled. As methods of murdering stars themselves haven't really been brought up in the lore yet (correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty LoN and the Dawn Machine are more focused on just the Sun, rather than stars in plural), I think it's safer to assume that there are some non-human machinations going on here...

    --
    http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Maricolousa
    (Finished)

    http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Kraine
    Mystic on the way to becoming a Glassworker, on occasional hiatus.
    +1 link
    th8827
    th8827
    Posts: 823

    9/27/2016
    My guess is that this does not really take place in Space, but either NORTH, or EAST.

    --
    http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/th8827

    Gone NORTH. It's nice here.
    +1 link
    Optimatum
    Optimatum
    Posts: 3540

    9/27/2016
    Around the time he left Failbetter, Alexis Kennedy wrote an article on choice and endings in video games, and how to reconcile the two - especially when you want people to keep playing and investing. Obviously he's not part of the development of Sunless Skies and may never have been, but I suspect that FBG already has plans for how to make this work.

    th8827 wrote:
    My guess is that this does not really take place in Space, but either NORTH, or EAST.



    Well, both of those locations do lead directly to the High Wilderness (for varying values of 'directly') so... I guess both?

    --
    Optimatum, a ruthless and merciful gentleman. No plant battles, Affluent Photographer requests, or healing offers; all other social actions welcome.

    Want a sip of Cider? Just say hi!

    PM me for information enigmatic or Fated. Though the forum please, not FL itself.
    +1 link
    Luminen Walker
    Luminen Walker
    Posts: 171

    9/26/2016
    Stating this again in here:
    "This seems like a possible future rather than a definite one for things to me- kind of like the endings and supremacies in Sunless Sea."

    Because nothing changes in London. The Empress isn't going to bugger off through the gate and take half the city with her because that would be the end of Fallen London. Everyone's still going to get their various endings when the time comes and they're all simultaneously going to be canon and matter and noncanon and "pointless" because the writers can and will only be able to accommodate so many people as time goes on and they make things such as Sunless Sea, and Sunless Skies, and perhaps even someday when the spheres have aligned and the rituals have failed: Fallen Paris.
    edited by TeslaWalker on 9/26/2016

    --
    Cpt. Martin Walker, a sagacious and magnanimous gentleman.
    For Faith! For Temperance! For a Future without Monsters!
    +1 link
    Zolana
    Zolana
    Posts: 10

    9/26/2016
    This sounds exceptionally exciting, can't wait to back another Failbetter Kickstarter! And we have the bonus of enjoying Zubmariner in the meantime.

    I do echo a few others in this thread also in feeling slightly disappointed that Castles in the Roof isn't looking like it's going to happen. ---BUT--- on the Failbetter website, it says "Coming on 11 October 2016: Zubmariner, the first expansion to Sunless Sea!" (https://www.failbettergames.com/sunless/). The "FIRST" expansion to Sunless Sea. Could that mean there may be more expansion(s?) in the future? Why say it's the first, if it's going to be the only one?

    Either way, I'm excited, for both Zubmariner and Sunless Skies! Looking forward to hearing more Failbetter! Keep up the brilliant work!
    +1 link
    Morgan Joylighter
    Morgan Joylighter
    Posts: 26

    9/25/2016
    So, rampant speculation...if someone is murdering stars, why on earth do the Emperor and whoever is following her think it's a good idea to go TOWARDS said catastrophic space war?

    --
    Feel free to socialize me smile Just know I might not have any idea what I'm doing, because I'm (relatively) new and know (somewhat) more about lore than actual game mechanics. So if there are ways to take advantage of players through social actions, I might be a good mark wink Also a disciple of the Dawn Machine. Make of that what you will smile
    +1 link
    A Dimness
    A Dimness
    Posts: 613

    9/26/2016
    Sir Frederick Tanah-Chook wrote:
    On the one hand, I most certainly trust FBG's judgement (if you'll pardon the inadvertent pun.) On the other hand, well, many a studio has decided to shake up its franchise by rebooting the universe following some sort of cataclysmic, society-destroying event. Deadlands had the post-apocalyptic Hell on Earth and the, er, post-Earth Lost Colony. EverQuest II was set in the ravaged ruins of the original EverQuest. In short, "burn everything and start again" is an established tool of the writer's craft.

    But then, we could argue that Fallen London is in its own way Post-apocalyptic. London is, after all, the fifth city to be squashed.

    --
    A truth so strange it can only be lied into existence
    +1 link
    Optimatum
    Optimatum
    Posts: 3540

    11/29/2016
    Lmaoboat wrote:
    A lesson I hope FB takes from Sunless Sea: Even though their strength is in the stories, you still spend 90% of the time with the rest of the game, so I think it's really important the core gameplay stands on its own.



    The new blog post talks about analyzing which game elements elements worked well and how to improve or replace the ones that didn't.

    --
    Optimatum, a ruthless and merciful gentleman. No plant battles, Affluent Photographer requests, or healing offers; all other social actions welcome.

    Want a sip of Cider? Just say hi!

    PM me for information enigmatic or Fated. Though the forum please, not FL itself.
    +1 link
    Optimatum
    Optimatum
    Posts: 3540

    10/15/2016
    Yep. It's usually mentioned indirectly as a sea more sunless.

    --
    Optimatum, a ruthless and merciful gentleman. No plant battles, Affluent Photographer requests, or healing offers; all other social actions welcome.

    Want a sip of Cider? Just say hi!

    PM me for information enigmatic or Fated. Though the forum please, not FL itself.
    +1 link
    hjguy12
    hjguy12
    Posts: 25

    11/21/2016
    Optimatum wrote:
    Yep. It's usually mentioned indirectly as a sea more sunless.

    Wasn't that the lacre-vats under the Bazaar? Have I just been confused?

    --
    http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Hazza -My Main, Has an orphanage, looking for correspondents, conjurers etc.

    http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/TheSPACESYMBOLNorthboundSPACESYMBOLFanatic -My Alt, a most ungentlefellow with connections in the underworld. He made the mistake of looking in a well. Has an unfortunate obsession with candles.

    Up for all social actions on either account.
    +1 link




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