Tesuji
Posts: 161
2/23/2013
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Wren wrote:
The secretive Club in London takes its name from an ancient trading city that is first referenced in texts dating to the 3rd millennium BC, so it was it was old when Babylon was young.
Except that you've reversed the saying, which is "Even the First City was young when Babylon fell".
... though I must confess I've never quite understood how this could credibly become a saying.
It isn't really making any statement about the First City; rather, it's emphasizing how old Babylon was, which doesn't seem like the sort of thing that anyone would bother making into a saying. I can't imagine there were a lot of Babylon-partisans in the Second City, wanting to make it known that the First City was just a johnny-come-lately on the historical scene.
If the saying were actually "Even Babylon was young when the First City fell", that would make sense--that's the sort of saying that would be made by historians in the Second, Third and Fourth Cities to give a sense to their students of how old the First City was (which, having passed from history when it became home to Bazaar, was probably a city they weren't that familiar with) by comparing it to a city whose antiquity they were familiar.
That's the format I would expect for a saying, something like "Even ____ (something ancient that the listener would be familiar with) was young when the First City fell".
The quoted saying, however, would be like me saying "I'm broke when compared to Bill Gates". Yeah, a lot of people are, just as there are a lot of cities younger than Babylon; that comparison doesn't really convey much meaningful information.
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LenoraVK
Posts: 15
3/5/2013
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Wren wrote:
I'd like to suggest a different possibility for the First City...how about Dilmun?
The secretive Club in London takes its name from an ancient trading city that is first referenced in texts dating to the 3rd millennium BC, so it was it was old when Babylon was young.
The earliest records of it mention that the "ships of Dilmun brought wood". I have no idea if this was cedar, but maybe. And, these records were on clay tablets.
Some scholars think it was an island and all agree it was a major trading port between Mesopotamia and the Indus. So, while not literally a crossroads it was one metaphorically.
Admittedly I'm not sure how the Eye and Alabaster relate, but I thought it worth considering.
(Also The Epic of Gilgamesh describes it as a paradise and the home of the goddess of the South Wind!)
This is a really interesting theory, even if it does, as Tesuji stated, reverse the First City/Babylon quote.
By simply googling for a connection between Dilmun and cedars, I found that the paradise version was said to be a "land of cedars." Some people have said that it was the location of the Cedar Forest mentioned in the Epic of Gilgamesh, where the titular character went with his friend Enkidu to get some timber and make a name for themselves. Enkidu died there, and Gilgamesh started searching for immortality, eventually passing through the gates of a garden (relevant, perhaps?) whose trees bore jewels rather than fruit. This causes some people to connect Dilmun with the Garden of the Hesperides, which is, of course, where Hesperidean Cider would be from.
The only unfortunate thing about all this is that while these things support the theory, they're all about Dilmun as a metaphorical place, a paradise. Most people place its geographical location somewhere around Bahrain, and cedars seem to grow farther north. However, Bahrain is indeed an island and could definitely have been that trading route or "crossroads," as you said. Perhaps Failbetter is just seeking to combine the myth with the supposed real-life place? In any case, looking into it led to a lot of relevant-sounding stuff, so I'd say it's worth some more research.
Here are the pages I was reading, in case anyone else finds something of use in them:
http://www.geocities.ws/garyweb65/eden1.html
http://www.crystalinks.com/dilmun.html
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/serpents_dragons/boulay15e.htm
edited by TaraLyn on 3/5/2013
edited by TaraLyn on 3/5/2013
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Zmflavius
Posts: 53
3/6/2013
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On a personal level, I have some fondness for associating the First City with the Epic of Gilgamesh. I've also suspected, on some level, a connection between the Manager and the King and Gilgamesh and Enkidu, if not literally, then perhaps metaphorically.
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BrightonParis
Posts: 6
6/10/2013
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To jump back to a slightly earlier topic, it does seem that there are lands which hearken back to previous cities. However, we are also informed that the Fifth City is placed squat and flush atop the previous four. Slightly more here.
Has anyone reasoned out any sort of justification for that? For how the Elder Continent can be the location of the Third City while we still find its relics beneath our boots?
And what of that snippet?
"What are the things under the City? In no particular order, these are said to be: the first Four Cities; the Masters’ summer homes; the hatcheries of the Rubbery Men; and a number of gigantic sleeping beasts which are drugged every year to prevent them awakening and destroying the Neath. These are sometimes referred to as the ‘stone pigs’, but that’s probably some sort of mistranslation."
Has no-one theorized anything like the cities moving across the 'Neath? And what of the rumours of the Masters' summer houses, are they connected to the fabled hospitality of the warm Second City somehow? Are the stone pigs the gods we keep silent further under us?
edited by BrightonParis on 6/11/2013
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Flipz
Posts: 177
6/11/2013
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Well, if we're going to revive this topic of discussion, we simply [I]can't[/I] ignore the invaluable clue of the Sunlight:
The first taught restraint and the second betrayed. The third taught us hunger: the fourth we remade. The fifth will live on in the heart of the Sun, and the sixth...
I have this odd feeling that this is directly connected to what BrightonParis is mentioning, but unfortunately my real-world Watchful is too low for me to figure it out.
If you have a Zubmarine and explore an iceberg at Zee, there's also an interesting tidbit about Polythreme, which if I understand correctly has some potent connections to the First City:
On the underside of the slate-blue iceberg, your lamps pick out details. Long-dead trees, a low wall, a little marble temple, all upside-down. The iceberg is a small hill, possibly sloughed off from Polythreme. Every minute or so, a vibration rocks your vessel, sending the crew sprawling. It's like the beat of a slow, slow drum.
Again, no idea what it means, but it increases "Walking the Fallen Cities", so it's definitely a clue.
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Aspeon
Posts: 311
6/21/2013
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Here's an interesting tidbit from the Archaeology content (the result that gets you the eyeless skull):
Horses are depicted, rearing to the sun: eleven hooded figures shrink away from its rays. "We are still here," the shrine seems to say, "and we have not forgotten."
Were there ever eleven Masters?
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Flapdragon
Posts: 30
6/22/2013
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Aspeon wrote:
Here's an interesting tidbit from the Archaeology content (the result that gets you the eyeless skull):
Horses are depicted, rearing to the sun: eleven hooded figures shrink away from its rays. "We are still here," the shrine seems to say, "and we have not forgotten."
Were there ever eleven Masters?
Well, it's probably not counting Chimes, Sacks, or Names, but there's one other master that's not mentioned if there are eleven mentioned- maybe Eaten? (or maybe Mirrors? I'm not really sure, but those two seem to be the most likely to be excluded)
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Sara Hysaro
Moderator
Posts: 4514
6/22/2013
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[spoiler]Mr Mirrors is Mr Cups. [/spoiler]
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Flapdragon
Posts: 30
6/23/2013
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Sara Hysaro wrote:
[spoiler]Mr Mirrors is Mr Cups. [/spoiler]
...Hmm, does that mean that Eaten or who Eaten used to be is included in the eleven then?
edited by Flapdragon on 6/23/2013
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Sara Hysaro
Moderator
Posts: 4514
6/23/2013
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No, I think it's more likely they didn't know about that. There are eleven Masters if you exclude Sacks, Names, Chimes, and Eaten. That there are only 10 Masters to those 11 names wouldn't be common knowledge. Maybe there are even fewer than that. But yeah, it's just a funny little thing I thought I'd bring up. ^^
edited by Sara Hysaro on 6/23/2013
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Flyte
Administrator
Posts: 671
6/23/2013
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Flapdragon wrote:
...Hmm, does that mean that Eaten or who Eaten used to be is included in the eleven then? No, it means that Mr Chimes or Mr Sacks is a real Master. I'm inclined to believe in the former.
Also, I think it would be good to collate the evidence for Sara's assertion. To my knowledge, it rests on [spoiler]A slip of the tongue by the Curt Relicker when you trade in Scraps for a Rumourmaster's Network, along with the numerical discrepancy under discussion.[/spoiler]Am I missing anything?
edited by Flyte on 6/23/2013
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Sara Hysaro
Moderator
Posts: 4514
6/23/2013
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Plus some talk about reflections on Twitter, but yeah, that's pretty much it.
edited by Sara Hysaro on 6/23/2013
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Flyte
Administrator
Posts: 671
6/23/2013
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Why don't you believe in Mr Chimes? His portfolio seems a bit... thin, but I haven't come across a reason to doubt his independent existence, other than that.
Edit: this question was a bit less redundant before your edit. I wonder if we'll ever uncover evidence that a building from the Fourth City was once a House of Chimes.
edited by Flyte on 6/23/2013
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Sara Hysaro
Moderator
Posts: 4514
6/23/2013
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There is a sidebar about Mr Chimes:
Who is Mr Chimes?
Is it, in fact, one of the Masters of the Bazaar? Is it Mr Iron or Mr Pages trading under another name? Or is it a bold rascal pretending to be an unknown Master?
Edit: I'm always editing. XD But yeah, it's possible he was around back then, even if he's apparently unknown. It'd be nice to know for sure.
edited by Sara Hysaro on 6/23/2013
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Spacemarine9
Posts: 2234
6/23/2013
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Here's some stuff on those Masters mentioned above off the top of my head (note it's 2am I might have muddled some things but i'm like... mostly certain)
[spoiler]Mr Cups/Mirrors. I don't have a whole lot to say, really, except about the Christmas content. The Master asking for Dreams wishes to reflect dreams (sound like a mirror to you?). Giving him dreams of mirrors makes him accuse you of flirting with him (cause, y'know, mirrors). However, if you ask him /directly/ who he is, he says he's... Mr Cups? Of course it could just be a lie or subterfuge of some form, but when you put it together with the Relicker's slip of the tongue...
Mr Chimes! This one's a lot less obvious if you were to just enter the House yourself once. However... a group effort collating the various entry options showed that Mr Chimes seemed to copy behaviours from various Masters, depending on the option. Either Mr Chimes is some hellish conglomerate of all the Masters together, or it's just several Masters pretending to be one Master at different times. I dunno. [/spoiler]
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Flyte
Administrator
Posts: 671
6/23/2013
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I don't think I've ever seen that one. I would really like to believe that Mr Chimes is the Master who trades in Fate. But I'm not sure I can.
We could sort all this out if we could just get the Masters to line up in an orderly fashion. Preferably alphabetically. Can the Bazaar catch fire? Does the Correspondence have a sigil for 'fire drill'?
More questions for my list of mysteries...
Edit: I think the thunder once attacked the Bazaar. On reflection, this leads me to believe that it is not, in fact, flammable.
edited by Flyte on 6/23/2013
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Tesuji
Posts: 161
6/23/2013
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[spoiler]The taglines used by Mr Mirrors and Mr Cups should also be noted, both of them being official accounts followed by Mr Names.[/spoiler]
edited by Tesuji on 6/23/2013
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Tesuji.
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Dolan
Posts: 296
6/23/2013
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Flyte wrote:
I don't think I've ever seen that one. I would really like to believe that Mr Chimes is the Master who trades in Fate. But I'm not sure I can.
We could sort all this out if we could just get the Masters to line up in an orderly fashion. Preferably alphabetically. Can the Bazaar catch fire? Does the Correspondence have a sigil for 'fire drill'?
More questions for my list of mysteries...
Rare success from the second heist:
The Seal of Mr Fires
"...in the event that the Drowned stirs, we will apply the measures indicated in Annex Thirty-Three; Annex Thirty-Four; the Prelapsarian Conditionals; and the Spire-Sign. Through these measures..."
Emergency procedures for the Bazaar: somewhere between a fire drill, a secret treaty and a protective rite. Most of it makes very little sense, but some of it sticks, and burns.
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Flyte
Administrator
Posts: 671
6/27/2013
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Delicious scholars, I have absorbed your keen observations and keenly encouraged their fermentation. I present the resulting speculations on Mr Mirrors and Mr Chimes. I should like to believe they have a pleasing pungency not dissimilar to Broken Giant. But perhaps they merely smell of horse sick. I cannot say. I have not often smelled horse sick. Perhaps others shall bring their experience to bear upon this point. Anyway, here they are.
[spoiler]Having read the document to which Spacemarine alluded, I must now accept the fictitiousness of Mr Chimes. I conjecture that the House of Chimes is a place where the Masters keep humans they find remarkable, attractive or amusing. To be exhibited therein, it is sufficient to gain the interest of a single Master. This is why, for example, those admitted on account of dangerousness or death or sedition are received by a Chimes who communicates in the same manner as Mr Iron.
Now something more tenuous. I don't think Mr Mirrors is Mr Cups; it is Mr Cups' reflection. As such, it is similar or more-than-similar to a Fingerking -- possessed of an autonomous will but no body, and able to influence the Neath through mirrors and dreams. For evidence, consider this exchange:
You and Mr Mirrors both claim to deal with the frangible and the fine. Do your interests overlap? Are you competitors?
Mr Cups: Consider a mirror. Do your interests overlap with those of your reflection?[/spoiler]
edited by Flyte on 6/27/2013
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Finvara
Posts: 430
6/27/2013
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Flyte wrote:
Delicious scholars, I have absorbed your keen observations and keenly encouraged their fermentation. I present the resulting speculations on Mr Mirrors and Mr Chimes. I should like to believe they have a pleasing pungency not dissimilar to Broken Giant. But perhaps they merely smell of horse sick. I cannot say. I have not often smelled horse sick. Perhaps others shall bring their experience to bear upon this point. Anyway, here they are.
[spoiler]Having read the document to which Spacemarine alluded, I must now accept the fictitiousness of Mr Chimes. I conjecture that the House of Chimes is a place where the Masters keep humans they find remarkable, attractive or amusing. To be exhibited therein, it is sufficient to gain the interest of a single Master. This is why, for example, those admitted on account of dangerousness or death or sedition are received by a Chimes who communicates in the same manner as Mr Iron.
Now something more tenuous. I don't think Mr Mirrors is Mr Cups; it is Mr Cups' reflection. As such, it is similar or more-than-similar to a Fingerking -- possessed of an autonomous will but no body, and able to influence the Neath through mirrors and dreams. For evidence, consider this exchange:
You and Mr Mirrors both claim to deal with the frangible and the fine. Do your interests overlap? Are you competitors?
Mr Cups: Consider a mirror. Do your interests overlap with those of your reflection?[/spoiler]
edited by Flyte on 6/27/2013
The trouble I see with this is that it's the exact same reaction you could expect it to give if your theory were false and the previous theory were true, as well.
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