Fadewalker
Posts: 136
7/30/2016
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We have 16 "Mr"s if double-counting is allowed: Apples, Candles, Chimes, Cups, Eaten, Fires, Hearts, Iron, Mirrors, Names, Pages, Sacks, Spices, Stones, Veils, Wines.
15 if Mr Names is excluded, 13 if a certain dead one are rejected, 11 if two possible "shared accounts" are removed, and 9 if some traded names are ruled out. All of them except Mr Iron and the eaten one have an "s" in their names. Maybe I am a little OCD but Mr Iron always catches my eye when I list the names of the Masters. Consider Fires and Wines, it doesn't seem to be a matter of "countable" versus "uncountable": Mr Iron is the purveyor of more than one sort of iron, I suppose. Or is it simply to avoid the ambiguity of chains?
edited by Fadewalker on 7/30/2016
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A fervent supporter of the Council and the Masters.
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Diptych
Administrator
Posts: 3493
7/30/2016
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A development! You are now Seeking Mr Iron's name.
[spoiler]Turns out it's actually "Ron". "I, Ron."
You are no longer Seeking Mr Iron's name.[/spoiler]
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Sir Frederick, the Libertarian Esotericist. Lord Hubris, the Bloody Baron.
Juniper Brown, the Ill-Fated Orphan. Esther Ellis-Hall, the Fashionable Fabian.
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A Dimness
Posts: 613
7/30/2016
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He'd name himself Mr. Metal(s), but then people would expect him to bring an electric guitar everywhere.
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A truth so strange it can only be lied into existence
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Fadewalker
Posts: 136
7/30/2016
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Sir Frederick Tanah-Chook wrote:
A development! You are now Seeking Mr Iron's name.
[spoiler]Turns out it's actually &quotRon&quot. &quotI, Ron.&quot
You are no longer Seeking Mr Iron's name.[/spoiler]
What shall I do to seek Mr Iron's name? Mute myself for 7 years and loom over 7 cakes, I think? BEWARE SUGAR. BEWARE CREAM. BEWARE CALORIES.
edited by Fadewalker on 7/30/2016
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A fervent supporter of the Council and the Masters.
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Appolonia
Posts: 248
7/30/2016
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Hmmmmm. All I can think of, reading this thread, is that maybe it was Mr. Irons once, but Mr. Wines wanted specific dominion over shackles and chains - 'the countable irons', for his Parlour of Virtue, which is curiously a part of Wines' domain, perhaps suggesting prior intrigues of this kind also. And thus, Mr. Wines stole the "s" right out of Mr. Irons name and put it on the menu of the Parlour, where it remains to this day.
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http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Appolonia%20VonRavenscroft
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Kukapetal
Posts: 1449
7/30/2016
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Is he also the Master in charge of neatly pressed slacks and wrinkle-free shirts? :P
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Fadewalker
Posts: 136
7/30/2016
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Kukapetal wrote:
Is he also the Master in charge of neatly pressed slacks and wrinkle-free shirts? :P
Maybe we can Iron Veils and put it into an undertaker's laundry basket with feet...Oh, sorry, I didn't know it's you, Mr Spices.
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A fervent supporter of the Council and the Masters.
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Curious Foreigner
Posts: 210
7/30/2016
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Iron is uncountable. Wines and Fires are countable.
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Cochimetl went North, and beyond. No poems, only candlelight now. (Well, maybe one poem.)
The Gun-Toting Gallivanter, after an extended absence, is back in London again.
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Morkan Kassington
Posts: 261
7/30/2016
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He was previously the Khan of Knives in the Fourth City, so it is not a weird quirk?
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Ladies of the Neath, here comes Morkan Kassington, the gem among gentlemen
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PSGarak
Posts: 834
7/31/2016
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suinicide wrote:
Barley was one of the first grains to be domesticated. Barley probably constituted for most of the grains when that city fell. And as for Mr. Corn, that just shows it wasn't from the americas, since corn was exported from there after european contact.
Isn't "corn" a more general term in British English?
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http://fallenlondon.com/Profile/PSGarak
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th8827
Posts: 823
7/30/2016
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phryne wrote:
Fadewalker wrote:
Consider Fires and Wines, it doesn't seem to be a matter of "countable" versus "uncountable": Mr Iron is the purveyor of more than one sort of iron, I suppose. There are different sorts of iron?!
Now, I'm picturing Mr. Iron using an Iron at an Ironing Board, trying to get the wrinkles out of clothes.
...Wait a minute. He is secretly trying to take over Mr. Veil's job!
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Gone NORTH. It's nice here.
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Diptych
Administrator
Posts: 3493
8/2/2016
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Given that the entirety of The Silver Tree is presumably being translated from Latin and one or more of the languages used in 13th-century Mongolia, I daresay we don't have to take that absolutely literally.
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Sir Frederick, the Libertarian Esotericist. Lord Hubris, the Bloody Baron.
Juniper Brown, the Ill-Fated Orphan. Esther Ellis-Hall, the Fashionable Fabian.
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xKiv
Posts: 846
8/2/2016
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Infinity Simulacrum wrote:
If I'm not mistaken, all masters have an actual name represented by a correspondence sigil.
Or seven.
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https://www.fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/xKiv - a witchful, percussive, dangermous and shadowry scholar of coexplodence, hopsidirean, and walker of fallen kitties.
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Fadewalker
Posts: 136
7/30/2016
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Vavakx Nonexus wrote:
Except that there are 5 definitions of the noun on the very page you've linked, along with 1 verb. Also, "A tool or implement now or originally made of iron" can apply to a lot of different things, and this is what Sir Frederick was referring to here.
Edit: sorry for having half the message unreadable unless highlighted. That's a problem with this forum: can't copy text from another site without messing the system up.
edited by Vavakx Nonexus on 7/30/2016
(It is because some format remains in your clipboard when you copy text from another site, you can first paste it into a txt file and then copy-paste it from the txt if you are using Windows.)
phryne wrote:
There are different sorts of iron??
edited by phryne on 7/30/2016
Mr Iron domains "Tools, weapons, engines". So yes, I think there are different sorts of iron.
Appolonia wrote:
Hmmmmm. All I can think of, reading this thread, is that maybe it was Mr. Irons once, but Mr. Wines wanted specific dominion over shackles and chains - 'the countable irons', for his Parlour of Virtue, which is curiously a part of Wines' domain, perhaps suggesting prior intrigues of this kind also. And thus, Mr. Wines stole the "s" right out of Mr. Irons name and put it on the menu of the Parlour, where it remains to this day.
You. I'm calling the special constables.
edited by Fadewalker on 7/30/2016
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A fervent supporter of the Council and the Masters.
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PSGarak
Posts: 834
7/31/2016
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From sidebar text, Mr. Apples was at one point Mr. Barley. That is also a name with no S, and Barley is an uncountable/mass noun. Unlike Iron, Barley has no alternative countable definitions so there's no confusion.
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http://fallenlondon.com/Profile/PSGarak
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Fadewalker
Posts: 136
7/30/2016
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Morkan Kassington wrote:
He was previously the Khan of Knives in the Fourth City, so it is not a weird quirk?
Yes, the Khan of Swords who does not speak, so it is at least not always a weird quirk. But I wonder why he doesn't fit in this "format" in London...
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A fervent supporter of the Council and the Masters.
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phryne
Posts: 1351
7/30/2016
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Fadewalker wrote:
Consider Fires and Wines, it doesn't seem to be a matter of "countable" versus "uncountable": Mr Iron is the purveyor of more than one sort of iron, I suppose. There are different sorts of iron??
Curious Foreigner wrote:
Iron is uncountable. Wines and Fires are countable. I would agree with that. Even if there should be different sorts of iron, I have never heard anyone say "Bring me two irons!" - except when meaning shackles/chains.
edited by phryne on 7/30/2016
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Diptych
Administrator
Posts: 3493
7/30/2016
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Well, a blacksmith might have several irons in the fire. A duellist might lunge at their opponent with an iron in each hand. A whaler might appear on deck, armed with a set of irons.
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Sir Frederick, the Libertarian Esotericist. Lord Hubris, the Bloody Baron.
Juniper Brown, the Ill-Fated Orphan. Esther Ellis-Hall, the Fashionable Fabian.
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Fadewalker
Posts: 136
8/2/2016
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An intriguing snippet:
[spoiler]in an end of the Silvertree, Mr Wines said that "In fact, you may call me by my true name, now: Mr Wines, at your service!". - But it was before London, even before the 4th city, before the use of Khan of Whatever. What does he mean by "my true name"?[/spoiler]
(Or, is it simply a straightforward way to reveal the identity of the emissary? No more?)
edited by Fadewalker on 8/2/2016
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A fervent supporter of the Council and the Masters.
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Fadewalker
Posts: 136
7/31/2016
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PSGarak wrote:
From sidebar text, Mr. Apples was at one point Mr. Barley. That is also a name with no S, and Barley is an uncountable/mass noun. Unlike Iron, Barley has no alternative countable definitions so there's no confusion.
suinicide wrote:
Barley was one of the first grains to be domesticated. Barley probably constituted for most of the grains when that city fell. And as for Mr. Corn, that just shows it wasn't from the americas, since corn was exported from there after european contact.
Yes, the snippet: "It's hard to be certain, but some have traded under more then one name. They say Mr Apples was Mr Barley once. Certainly Mr Iron used to trade as Mr Bronze. And Mr Stones was also trading as Mr Marble quite recently. Until that trouble with the tomb-colonies."
This might be a digression: I think this snippet has never been carried out in game, has it? After all, in London those names are not used as widely as the names I listed before . I am not to doubt its reliability, I mean, if we put Bronze, Barley and Marble together...could it be something related to the period of 1st city of Tell Brak and the 2nd city of Amarna? Though all of the three materials are used widely and with a long history, I am talking about using the name of a main feature of the master's business. In Sumerian time, tools and weapons were mainly made of bronze, barley was the dominant crop...and the use of marble can be dated back to the Stone Age (Mr Stones: Good. Mine.).
It is not ironclad, consider a possiblity where the name of a master need not be the most prominent goods among all; something feature, something related to their dominant business, might be enough. "Marble" can be simply "shining stone". "Bronze" can be parts of weapons and ships, and no more. I guess Mr Veils can be Mr Laundry, Mr Ironing, Mr Machine-washable.
But if a name of a master need not mention its most prominent good directly and have several expressions...It brings back the question of Mr Iron's name in London. He CAN follow the consistent format with his colleagues (Mr Metals together with Mr Steampunks! The Bazaar Masters' music bands! Oh, sorry, I didn't mean to offend you, Fires). But he didn't. Maybe the "format" doesn't exist at all. Or maybe that is a hobby? It is healthier than a certain hobby of trading names with colleagues, after all.
edited by Fadewalker on 7/31/2016
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A fervent supporter of the Council and the Masters.
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Optimatum
Posts: 3666
7/31/2016
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Fadewalker wrote:
Yes, the snippet: "It's hard to be certain, but some have traded under more then one name. They say Mr Apples was Mr Barley once. Certainly Mr Iron used to trade as Mr Bronze. And Mr Stones was also trading as Mr Marble quite recently. Until that trouble with the tomb-colonies."
This might be a digression: I think this snippet has never been carried out in game, has it? After all, in London those names are not used as widely as the names I listed before . I am not to doubt its reliability, I mean, if we put Bronze, Barley and Marble together...could it be something related to the period of 1st city of Tell Brak and the 2nd city of Amarna? Though all of the three materials are used widely and with a long history, I am talking about using the name of a main feature of the master's business. In Sumerian time, tools and weapons were mainly made of bronze, barley was the dominant crop...and the use of marble can be dated back to the Stone Age (Mr Stones: Good. Mine.).
All of those names were almost certainly used in London only. In the fourth city, the Masters were the Khans of whatever, and in the potential Sixth City of Paris they go by French names. "Quite recently" seems pretty definitive as well.
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Optimatum, a ruthless and merciful gentleman. No plant battles, Affluent Photographer requests, or healing offers; all other social actions welcome.
 Want a sip of Cider? Just say hi!
PM me for information enigmatic or Fated. Though the forum please, not FL itself.
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phryne
Posts: 1351
7/30/2016
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My point exactly, Curious Foreigner! I always understood the 'iron' in Mr Iron to mean the chemical element and the things industry makes out of it (steel etc), and that's definitely uncountable.
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Accounts: Bag a Legend • Light Fingers • Heart's Desire • Nemesis • no ambition
Exceptional Stories, sorted by Season and by writer ― Favours & Renown Guide
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Fadewalker
Posts: 136
7/30/2016
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Curious Foreigner wrote:
Mr Iron doesn't oversee the trade of irons, he oversees the trade of things made of iron. Iron (as in the thing things made out of iron are made of) is uncountable, as seen for example here: http://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/iron_1
edited by Curious Foreigner on 7/30/2016
Maybe that is the point. I don't know where I got such an impression that the Iron & Misery weapons are applied with more than one kind of metal, at least some copper, maybe from Sunless Sea, but maybe the main and core parts of all his weapons and tools are made of iron and steel, so in his name there is only one iron, without any "s".
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suinicide
Posts: 2409
7/31/2016
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So it is. I had no idea (means grains/wheat)
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A gentleman seeking the liberation of knowledge, with a penchant for violence.
RIP suinicide, stuck in a well. Still has it under control.
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Fadewalker
Posts: 136
7/31/2016
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So could the answer be: Mr Iron is uncountable beacause he can. The other masters use plurals because they like.
...Oh no that's cruel.
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A fervent supporter of the Council and the Masters.
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Parelle
Posts: 1084
7/31/2016
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But why Barley anyway? Why not Grains, or Corn?
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Parelle, Lady Joseph Marlen. The Singular Librarian. A Midnighter, a Player of the Marvelous.
pages from a dusty bookshop: a badly updated FL changelog | Useful Guidance and Explanations
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suinicide
Posts: 2409
7/31/2016
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Barley was one of the first grains to be domesticated. Barley probably constituted for most of the grains when that city fell. And as for Mr. Corn, that just shows it wasn't from the americas, since corn was exported from there after european contact.
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http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/profile/sunnytime
A gentleman seeking the liberation of knowledge, with a penchant for violence.
RIP suinicide, stuck in a well. Still has it under control.
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Curious Foreigner
Posts: 210
7/30/2016
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Mr Iron doesn't oversee the trade of irons, he oversees the trade of things made of iron. Iron (as in the thing things made out of iron are made of) is uncountable, as seen for example here: http://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/english/iron_1
edited by Curious Foreigner on 7/30/2016
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Cochimetl went North, and beyond. No poems, only candlelight now. (Well, maybe one poem.)
The Gun-Toting Gallivanter, after an extended absence, is back in London again.
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