Pnakotic wrote:

Tbh, I like the election a lot more the way it is currently than turning it into a cash-cow event financially encouraging players to just skunk the whole process.

I do agree that Agitators would benefit from some more "dangerous" choices for their career path. But unfortunately the only real Dangerous grinds are things like Dueling the Black Ribbon or hunting dangerous game, neither of which play well for this purposes (and are mechanically identical to the Big Score for Shadowy). Compare with Investigations (Watchful), Writing (Persuasive), Flash Lays (Shadowy and Persuasive), and Heists (Shadowy). Maybe adding some more hard-boiled options to investigations to allow players to break some heads to get information would help... but I think it points out a lack of satisfying Dangerous content compared to the other attribute-linked pursuits.

I also think the turn-in value for short stories needs to be evaluated, as the action and item cost compared to doing made it a very unattractive choice compared to doing Flash Lays (which were themselves considerably more action-intensive than the investigation option, though the overall benefits made them worthwhile).

edited by Pnakotic on 7/19/2016

TBH, that's what my angry diatribe on the forums was- I want voting to be as viable as scrapping the materials for echoes, so that voting isn't commiting to spend [effectively, compared to 380 echoes from cash-ins] 215 echoes for a lv.20 vote.

Anne Auclair wrote:

Infinity Simulacrum wrote:

I like most of it, but using Comprehensive Bribes as, well, bribing materials would greatly inconvenience newer pre-PoSI players, because the materials required for it aren't exactly cheap

I don't think there's anything we can do about this. Newer players will always be at a material and stat disadvantage. For example, the campaign resource card offers election supplies for a price that an experienced POSI would find trivial but a newer character daunting.

As for newer players not having access to the Bazaar Side Streets, and hence unable to make comprehensive bribes and use of villains, that could be easily remedied by a seasonable option allowing the construction of comprehensive bribes/villains outside the Bazaar Side Streets.
edited by Anne Auclair on 7/19/2016

I have already made my suggestion, that being a less linear bribe scaling, with 1-votes being buyable purely through election material (so that newbie fixers get to have a bit of fun as well), and the higher-votes getting the actual bribes from PoSIs.

Grenem wrote:

Pnakotic wrote:

Tbh, I like the election a lot more the way it is currently than turning it into a cash-cow event financially encouraging players to just skunk the whole process.

I do agree that Agitators would benefit from some more "dangerous" choices for their career path. But unfortunately the only real Dangerous grinds are things like Dueling the Black Ribbon or hunting dangerous game, neither of which play well for this purposes (and are mechanically identical to the Big Score for Shadowy). Compare with Investigations (Watchful), Writing (Persuasive), Flash Lays (Shadowy and Persuasive), and Heists (Shadowy). Maybe adding some more hard-boiled options to investigations to allow players to break some heads to get information would help... but I think it points out a lack of satisfying Dangerous content compared to the other attribute-linked pursuits.

I also think the turn-in value for short stories needs to be evaluated, as the action and item cost compared to doing made it a very unattractive choice compared to doing Flash Lays (which were themselves considerably more action-intensive than the investigation option, though the overall benefits made them worthwhile).

edited by Pnakotic on 7/19/2016

TBH, that's what my angry diatribe on the forums was- I want voting to be as viable as scrapping the materials for echoes, so that voting isn't commiting to spend [effectively, compared to 380 echoes from cash-ins] 215 echoes for a lv.20 vote.

Aren't the investigations non-viable for gathering votes? i mean, they only provide one type of material. unless you're getting the public attention from parties (20 echoes less payout for what looks like the same value) or from newspapers (break-even [well, 9.4 echoes profit if you got it from docks and didn't get the alt failure, -0.6 echoes if you got it from the bazaar] with 1 attention for 13 actions, plus the action to get to spite- each time, unless you're doing a mass batch.), you still need to do something else for actual votes. I mean, if you're after echoes, they are probably the best option, but they only provide one type of material.
edited by Grenem on 7/19/2016

Ultimately, you could progress any career with minimal expenditures (beyond the opportunity cost of actions) just by using Flash Lays and Investigations. I didn't consider parties for public attention. Overall I managed 20 levels plus grinding notability from level 6 to 10 in two weeks without expending anything more expensive than the few Tales of Terror I invested in writing tow stories before deciding they weren't worth the investment of items and actions for either campaign material or making waves. I didn't have many actions left over for other pursuits, but I can sacrifice that for two weeks of exploring new content. Would I necessarily want to again in future for minimal rewards? Hard to say. I'd certainly head in with higher Notability if possible, which would make everything else that much easier.

Pnakotic wrote:

Grenem wrote:

Pnakotic wrote:

Tbh, I like the election a lot more the way it is currently than turning it into a cash-cow event financially encouraging players to just skunk the whole process.

I do agree that Agitators would benefit from some more "dangerous" choices for their career path. But unfortunately the only real Dangerous grinds are things like Dueling the Black Ribbon or hunting dangerous game, neither of which play well for this purposes (and are mechanically identical to the Big Score for Shadowy). Compare with Investigations (Watchful), Writing (Persuasive), Flash Lays (Shadowy and Persuasive), and Heists (Shadowy). Maybe adding some more hard-boiled options to investigations to allow players to break some heads to get information would help... but I think it points out a lack of satisfying Dangerous content compared to the other attribute-linked pursuits.

I also think the turn-in value for short stories needs to be evaluated, as the action and item cost compared to doing made it a very unattractive choice compared to doing Flash Lays (which were themselves considerably more action-intensive than the investigation option, though the overall benefits made them worthwhile).

edited by Pnakotic on 7/19/2016

TBH, that's what my angry diatribe on the forums was- I want voting to be as viable as scrapping the materials for echoes, so that voting isn't commiting to spend [effectively, compared to 380 echoes from cash-ins] 215 echoes for a lv.20 vote.

Aren't the investigations non-viable for gathering votes? i mean, they only provide one type of material. unless you're getting the public attention from parties (20 echoes less payout for what looks like the same value) or from newspapers (break-even [well, 9.4 echoes profit if you got it from docks and didn't get the alt failure, -0.6 echoes if you got it from the bazaar] with 1 attention for 13 actions, plus the action to get to spite- each time, unless you're doing a mass batch.), you still need to do something else for actual votes. I mean, if you're after echoes, they are probably the best option, but they only provide one type of material.
edited by Grenem on 7/19/2016

Ultimately, you could progress any career with minimal expenditures (beyond the opportunity cost of actions) just by using Flash Lays and Investigations. I didn't consider parties for public attention. Overall I managed 20 levels plus grinding notability from level 6 to 10 in two weeks without expending anything more expensive than the few Tales of Terror I invested in writing tow stories before deciding they weren't worth the investment of items and actions for either campaign material or making waves. I didn't have many actions left over for other pursuits, but I can sacrifice that for two weeks of exploring new content. Would I necessarily want to again in future for minimal rewards? Hard to say. I'd certainly head in with higher Notability if possible, which would make everything else that much easier.

You're right, but i meant the comparative payouts. 38 election materials -> 380 echoes, vs. 20 election levels -> 165 echoes. total difference: 215 echoes, or ~11 echoes a vote. It's fine if they want sitting it out to be the most profitable, but assuming you don't want the worst-off campaign to be bleeding voters, i'd rather campaigning against a near-unstoppable tide wasn't analogous to throwing items down a well. The only other way to ensure that is to ensure the candidates are more balanced in popularity before-hand with, say, a pre-vote on which candidates to use, so that we don't have another jenny, or the new one is at least less crushingly popular.

Personal preference, feel free to ignore.

edited by Grenem on 7/19/2016

~snip~

Not everyone values echoes and actions the same way. Anyway, we're all getting off topic. Features, this thread is about future features :P

Reposting from the winner announcement thread:

While making the festival a resource sink rather than a resource faucet was a good game design decision, it can only pay off in full if the players are aware of the fact when they make their choices.

If raising one's campaign career is profitable, or if the players perceive it as such, then the election is reduced to a popularity contest. Since the optimal strategy in that case is to maximize one's career for a big payout, then it's impossible for the most popular candidate to lose, unless supporters of their rivals manage to sway enough players to their cause.

On other hand, if the players are aware that the strategy which helps their candidate the most is not the one that helps themselves the most, it opens up room for a lot of interesting choices, mind games and brinkmanship. "Can I maximize my career level?" becomes "Should I raise my career level, and if yes, how high?". Everyone will have an incentive to pursue a selfish approach, whether 'because we'll lose anyway' or 'because we'll win anyway". The interim announcement changes from a mere indicator of popularity to an informative signal for those who choose to exercise patience and sit on their banked resources before deciding whether to commit them to a campaign or spend them on themselves. And since success is determined not only by numbers, but also by the level of commitment, agitating one's own side becomes just as important as luring away people from the rivals' camps.

TL;DR: Keep elections unprofitable, but advertise them as such: it makes for a better game.

I have very little to add to this (I hate crunching numbers), but Grenem, you are a generous soul that tends to drop bags of coin on random newcomers. The opportunity cost from that alone is enough to kill you stone dead thrice and over for you to feel pain about the opportunity cost of Election.