We got absolutely no unique items, not a single one.

It appears that Jenny's administration is Master infested, as predicted :P

I'd like it if next time, when i know not to get invested, it's still profitable or at least not a net loss, to use my election items on campaigning. Otherwise, I'll feel obligated to tell all new players to not bother with campaigning actively- just try the stories and turn in the items for echoes.

Professor Sketch wrote:

Grenem wrote:

Yes, but in the real world there's bitterness and bad feelings when your candidate loses, and unless your party is completely incompetent, there's some token victories for your side. Even if you don't get a president, you usually get someone into a position of power. Fun trumps realism, unless there's some very important reason for realism to win, and having lost resources to achieve nothing is not fun. In this case, there's not, unless you have some better reason than "realistic" or "it's supposed to be a gamble".

I might disagree if this election was close, but it sounds like it was a landslide, as far as these things go, and my only option ever was to either make 100000 alts or roll over and accept jenny's victory. Getting crushed by the least moral candidate because, and i quote from memory, "ninja prostitute nun" is unfun even before the fact that it's a net loss. as it stands, i am considering celebrating the next election with free wounds for everyone. at least then the suffering will be shared.
edited by Grenem on 7/18/2016

So your complaint is essentially that you no longer find it fun to participate in competitions when you lose?
This was a one-time story, and quite a good one at that, which you were able to take part in and help decide the outcome. It was a fun piece of content, made for you to play for free, which gave you great items just for participating in the very first step. You weren't losing resources to achieve nothing - you were spending resources to read an excellent story that you had the privilege of participating in and even deciding how it ended. And if you refuse to treat it like a story, then you're still just being a sore loser. When you lose a race, do you complain about having wasted all that energy and breath for nothing? My candidate lost, too. I spent resources, too. It was all terribly fun, I got to read a great story that any players joining after this last week will never get to experience, I was given special items for just placing my vote, and then I was even still given rewards by my candidate at the end despite us losing. You did all the same. The only difference is you decided none of that was worth the resources.

The freebies were nice, I won't deny that. The election, though, was an exercise in complete frustration.

The difference is, I find it immensely frustrating to be competing against the majority of the community, and it didn't feel like anything i did could slow the tide. The fun part about seeking is you know going in- you'll be throwing resources down a well, and you will not be compensated. If all three factions had similar support portions- say, 30%, 30%, 40%, it could have been fun. but even if that was the case, it doesn't feel like it was- it wasn't on the forums.

Half the community is enamored with Jenny, and the other half is split between two factions. I enjoy competitions where i stand a chance. If I lose by a small margin, fine, that's fun, i knew that could happen. But it didn't feel like that, it felt like an all-encompassing flood of pro-jenny support and like i was outnumbered by a vast margin.

When I run a race, it's one of me versus one of them, so i can be a gracious loser. when i feel like i had no shot- like the game was inherently unfair, and i wasn't informed of this- i get irritated, frustrated, and then outright angry. When I cannot do "my best" because effort is capped, it stops being a competition and starts being a popularity contest. And I can't enjoy those, because by their very nature, they are not really competitions where you can change anything.

I should have known better than to get involved in a popularity contest, but i thought it would be fun and that all three factions were equally loved and terrible. nope. Jenny, for whatever reason, became excessively popular even as she was revealed to play dirtier than the other two put together- possibly multiplied together.

it doesn't help that jenny is the only "a bad person" candidate- [not to say the others don't have their flaws, they do. but the contrarian is only guilty of making someone angry enough to die who plausibly has choking fits from "naked ankles", and the bishop just made a stupid mistake. neither of them poison you and blackmail ex-customers who almost certainly paid for discretion.]- And there's enough of those in real life. Sure, the others have bad ideas, but not only do they mean well, but they know what they're after. What I wanted was three moral individuals with immoral backers. three people i could believe meant well, despite their ties to less-than-perfect factions. What I got was two, and jenny.

I didn't get to decide, the jenny mob did, and it didn't feel like anything i did made a difference in deciding. The story was good enough to make me care, but not good enough to make me enjoy it when it was futile- the caring just made it worse- and being ultimately powerless didn't help. then i was left feeling utterly betrayed by the new revelations, which seemed to be a pretty active act of sabotage for the contrarian's campaign from the revolution. the problem is, helping vote on a X, Y or Z isn't really deciding at all. either you win, and get what you want, or you lose, and it'd be exactly the same if you never participated.

Ultimately i'm just... left feeling frustrated and numb and irritated.

the payout is a net loss, and that means that i should have stayed out of the election. nothing i did made a difference, or at least not anything much. But when the most fun option is completely ignoring the main part of a festival, i think something is wrong. I know, it's free, therefore i have no right to complain or dissent from the majority's "this was wonderful". But it wasn't fun for me, and the fact that they either didn't do the math on the payouts, or did but decided the loss was fair anyways, makes this festival one i will avoid in the future, take the freebies and ignore.

[also- is it confirmed they'll change candidates for next time, or just suspected?]
edited by Grenem on 7/18/2016

Grenem wrote:

i assumed the fanbase was balanced in preferences when it wasn't, but that was my mistake.
edited by Grenem on 7/19/2016

Could you please stop insulting the community? You could have easily made it through much of the entire thing without spending nearly as much as you did, or even spending a single echo, but you did, and you blame your mistakes on other people. Stop. It's rude.
edited by Professor Sketch on 7/19/2016

Grenem wrote:

I'd like it if next time, when i know not to get invested, it's still profitable or at least not a net loss, to use my election items on campaigning. Otherwise, I'll feel obligated to tell all new players to not bother with campaigning actively- just try the stories and turn in the items for echoes.

Alright, that's enough. You're under no obligation to enjoy any given content, and to say so, but I think we can call your objections well and truly registered at this point, and threatening to disrupt future festivals if they don't conform to your desires is really not on. Let's move on, everyone.

Actually, I think that Grenem has a good point there. While making the festival a resource sink rather than a resource faucet was a good game design decision, it can only pay off in full if the players are aware of the fact when they make their choices.

If raising one's campaign career is profitable, or if the players perceive it as such, then the election is reduced to a popularity contest. Since the optimal strategy in that case is to maximize one's career for a big payout, then it's impossible for the most popular candidate to lose, unless supporters of their rivals manage to sway enough players to their cause.

On other hand, if the players are aware that the strategy which helps their candidate the most is not the one that helps themselves the most, it opens up room for a lot of interesting choices, mind games and brinkmanship. "Can I maximize my career level?" becomes "Should I raise my career level, and if yes, how high?". Everyone will have an incentive to pursue a selfish approach, whether 'because we'll lose anyway' or 'because we'll win anyway". The interim announcement changes from a mere indicator of popularity to an informative signal for those who choose to exercise patience and sit on their banked resources before deciding whether to commit them to a campaign or spend them on themselves. And since success is determined not only by numbers, but also by the level of commitment, agitating one's own side becomes just as important as luring away people from the rivals' camps.

TL;DR: Keep elections unprofitable, but advertise them as such: it makes for a better game.
edited by Passionario on 7/19/2016

I will have to disagree with you about the Contrarian, as not only was it changing his campaign's alignment (from no-LoN to pro-LoN via February), but also had him literally sending money to other candidates in retaliation. He doesn't want to get into power so that the Council doesn't get into power. If anything's a nasty revelation, this is.

which was when it turned into a pure popularity contest. uncapped, I'd have just kept going, and accepted that i got completely crushed. But it stops being a contest of dedication when your maximum effort is capped.

So, the Master's pet candidate is upset that they've got the full measure of her little social revolution and have turned it to their own ends. And if she does actually reject the Masters (wasn't she supposed to have broken with them during the campaign?) and abandon her program, she'll risk becoming a lame duck with no support or means of enacting change.

One thing I can't help but notice is how contrarian she is being with herself. A lot of people argued that the Contrarian's administration would mean endless debates and little meaningful action. Well, that's what we have now. But I suspect the Contrarian's constant flip flopping was to keep the Masters guessing, to make it hard for them to fit him into their plans and give him maximum ability to disrupt them where it mattered. Jenny is becoming a poor man's Contrarian. She's inching towards the Contrarian's program, but halfheartedly, defensively, and without a clear goal.
edited by Frederick Metzengerstein on 8/19/2016

"B___y mayor. Wants me to work in her Finishing School. Me – a teacher? Not half. Not by b____y half. I've stuck by her through thick and thin, but we've reached the end of this road. We'll be handing over the keys soon enough. She has the school. I have other obligations. But they're not full time."

Anyone else surprised at how viscous she was?

Estelle Knoht wrote:

Come to think of it, must it be a mayoral election next year? A university election where three people struggle to become the next Benthic Principal would be awesome fun times.

University elections though don't have a mass voter base - they're decided by relatively small groups. That sounds more like the subject for an Exceptional Story.
edited by Anne Auclair on 7/19/2016

I think grenem's just saying its not fun to campaign when you already know your side has lost.

Grenem wrote:

No, I lost quite a lot. I did spend over 600 echoes on this election through foolish play (specifically, 2.5 and 12.5 echo items, as well as newspapers.), before I noticed the cap. That's not even counting my efforts to get (rush) more notability than i can really use. [i have no actual use for notability over 7- or at least not worth the price i paid, since two lv. 7s = 1 lv. 14, and costs a lot less.]

If it's of any consolation, I've spent over 300 Fate on this election (in addition to the usual opportunity/AP/time costs).

Jenny is becoming a poor man's Contrarian.

Anne Auclair wrote:

Snip

Candlelight blazes in the upper windows. Someone is leaning out of one, smoking. Someone else - in a long dark robe - stands on the balcony with a telescope pointed to the cavern roof. At ground level, a tall and sharply-angled hooded figure is scuttling across the rocks towards the lighthouse.

These two Masters are obviously getting something out of this lighthouse, otherwise they wouldn't be financing Jenny's school (add this to Jenny's debts to Mr Wines).

Well, as much as I've been trying to avoid getting involved . . .

Do we have any proof those are the Masters?
Snip

No. Jenny was explicitly backed by Mr Wines at the beginning, not by the Masters at large. (I doubt there's really anything the Masters would back together, much less someone already involved with one of them.) At the beginning of her campaign, Mr Wines provided the campaign staff and funded everything, including supplying Morelways for events. Then Jenny broke ties with him, ditched his campaign staff, and lost his funding and Morelways supplies. Also I think there's a big difference between secrets she gained herself while in Mr Wines' employ, and anything actually given to her by Mr Wines. The former is something she managed herself.

Also I don't believe for a second that the Bishop and Contrarian have no ties to the Masters whatsoever. The Bishop is one of the two most powerful religious figures in the city; no way the Masters have no influence on that.

I recall that Jenny was the only candidate explicitly backed by the Masters. She got started with Mr Wines support, she publicly disavowed said support, but then she began receiving support from him under the table (crates and crates of Morelways). There's also the whole thing where Jenny funded her campaign by cashing out all the dirty secrets she amassed in the Parlor of Virtue while working for Mr Wines. So it's not surprising the Masters would have influence, whether Jenny likes it or not, as she owes some of them and they're not the sorts who let debts slide. The Contrarian and the Bishop in contrast owed the Masters nothing.

I have Jenny's post-victory encounter in my journal, for any bishop/contrarian voters who would like to read it. Anyone have the text for the bishop and contrarian they could share?

Anne Auclair wrote:

suinicide wrote:

I think grenem's just saying its not fun to campaign when you already know your side has lost.

Failbetter hsa said the Mayor's administration will get some story updates in the future. So hopefully we Bishop and Contrarian supporters will be given a chance to exact some post-election revenge on the corrupt, scandal plagued, and incompetent Jenny administration :P

Ooh, that'd be interesting.

How in the world did you manage to spend 215 Echoes on the Festival? I got through the entire thing and only ever spent at most 12 or so when I was impatient.

Also, when you say utterly betrayed, it sounds like you're saying the writers betrayed you by writing a story that undercut the Contrarian's campaign. (I might have misunderstood this!) Yet, the story written for Jenny made you feel she was objectively the absolute worst and most immoral candidate, which matched what you seemed to previously feel about her (due to the Feast's poisoning; again, apologies if I misunderstood). This seems a little strange. Plus: Can you really say the Contrarian's story didn't match his long-established characterization? Or the Bishop's?

Although I'm sympathetic to mechanics complaints or feeling unrewarded after so much effort was put into defeat, I find it hard to see the story or other players morally or artistically at fault here. But then, I did love the story myself.
edited by thedeadlymoose on 7/19/2016

The Contrarian is a self-centered person who is willing to align himself with bigotry to make a point (arguing against the rights of Clay Men, as all us partiers are so often reminded)

BillyBones wrote:

Anne Auclair wrote:

Estelle Knoht wrote:

Come to think of it, must it be a mayoral election next year? A university election where three people struggle to become the next Benthic Principal would be awesome fun times.

University elections though don't have a mass voter base - they're decided by relatively small groups. That sounds more like the subject for an Exceptional Story.
edited by Anne Auclair on 7/19/2016

Mayoral election, university election, it matters little. The Topsy King would be a fine Mayor and a fine Dean.

We should also run him for Parliament.

Grenem wrote:

which was when it turned into a pure popularity contest. uncapped, I'd have just kept going, and accepted that i got completely crushed. But it stops being a contest of dedication when your maximum effort is capped.

I don't wish to be rude, but... of course it's a popularity contest - it's an election. Plus, if there were no cap, then there'd be people in here complaining that all their work was undermined by someone who played 24/7 and spent Fate on action refreshes to ensure their candidate won.
edited by Sir Frederick Tanah-Chook on 7/19/2016

Anne Auclair wrote:

Nope, I want her to fail :P But I'll settle for some misery ^_^

Aw C'mon, at the very least she might do something about the rampant poverty and crime...

The Master wrote:

BillyBones wrote:

Anne Auclair wrote:

BillyBones wrote:

Anne Auclair wrote:

Estelle Knoht wrote:

Come to think of it, must it be a mayoral election next year? A university election where three people struggle to become the next Benthic Principal would be awesome fun times.

University elections though don't have a mass voter base - they're decided by relatively small groups. That sounds more like the subject for an Exceptional Story.
edited by Anne Auclair on 7/19/2016

Mayoral election, university election, it matters little. The Topsy King would be a fine Mayor and a fine Dean.

We should also run him for Parliament.

At the same time!

While we are at it, why not replace the Bazaar with the Topsy King? I'm sure he would be a fine messanger.

A man like him deserves a higher position than a mere cosmic courier. A man like him deserves to be elevated to much greater heights. In 1895, the Topsy King will become the Topsy Judgement.

By Masters I meant Mr Wines and whatever silent partners he had. Jenny was the only candidate with explicit Master support.


As she amassed said secrets in Mr Wines employ, in Mr Wines establishment, from Mr Wines clients, Mr Wines could well decide that Jenny owes him. And in a sense she would owe him, because all those opportunities came at Mr Wines forbearance and, to a certain degree, his expense.

Neither the Bishop nor the Contrarian had Master backing. Nor did their campaigns owe the Masters anything.

Jenny's debts to Mr Wines
1. Mr Wines funding the start of her campaign.
2. The secrets she amassed while in Mr Wines employ.
3. The "mysterious" Morelways.

How much money would it take to host parties with "seemingly never-ending crates of Morelways"? More to the point, who is a Jenny supporter with a seemingly never ending supply of high quality wine?

• I can't actually find the original election storylet text as it was changed halfway through, but I don't see anything in the other election text of her making a big point of being backed by Mr Wines. It wouldn't make sense at all, given she was appealing to those who typically are opposed to the Masters.
• In another sense she wouldn't owe him, as she was doing (and presumably continues to do) work that netted him an enormous profit, and was paid for it. (Also, being in a mutually-beneficial arrangement with one Master is quite different than "she owes some of [the Masters] and they're not the sorts who let debts slide".)
• Neither the Bishop nor the Contrarian had Master backing, nor did their campaigns owe the Masters anything. But we were just discussing whether Jenny herself owed anything, not her campaign. I'd be very surprised if neither the Bishop nor the Contrarian had any involvement with, minor debts to, or influence from the Masters. The Bishop moreso due to his more politically powerful position. And just because we didn't see those doesn't mean they couldn't be possible: we saw the election develop in response to player opinions and response, and we're only seeing the Masters trying to sway Jenny now because she won. For all we know, if players flocked to the Contrarian because of Revolutionary sentiment he could have been revealed to have ties to a Master or two. There's no way to know what different information might have come to light.
• Mr Wines funded her campaign for the first couple (in-game) days, then ties were cut. None of the content I saw even hinted he might be successfully regaining influence. The secrets and other profits are only a debt if Mr Wines was not paid his dues, which seems not to be the case; otherwise they are payment. As for the "mysterious" Morelways, well...
• How much money would it take to host parties with that much wine? I'd guess around the amount from "cashing out all the dirty secrets she amassed in the Parlor of Virtue" as you put it. (Who is a Jenny supporter with tons of wine? Not Mr Wines, at that point. Possibly rich NPCs, or someone to whom the Sisterhood has connections.)

Helping the needy can in fact increase dissent and dissatisfaction. These people have had a taste of what Could Be.

Anyone else surprised at how viscous she was?

Nothing yet. I'm sure the card will come soon.

I could see spending 215 echoes if you were a Campaigner burning Favours in High Places and/or Blackmail Material for Short Stories. I personally just did investigations/flash lays since I don't like spending resources on festivals if I don't have to.

Come to think of it, must it be a mayoral election next year? A university election where three people struggle to become the next Benthic Principal would be awesome fun times.

Vavakx Nonexus wrote:

We got absolutely no unique items, not a single one.

I have Jenny's post-victory encounter in my journal, for any bishop/contrarian voters who would like to read it. Anyone have the text for the bishop and contrarian they could share?

Grenem wrote:

penknife wrote:

if you don't care about the election, the best choice is to choose a token affiliation and either grind case notes or just use the cards.

If you don't care about the election, surely the best choice is to pick your starting reward and then ignore the election completely? What you got from campaigning was the chance to make it more likely for your candidate to win. If you didn't care about that, there wasn't any point in pouring resources into campaigning.

Yes- well, no. The turn in options are for 10 echoes per item, and each candidate's card has a 5 echoes for a election item option. if you can take those, it's got a minimum epa of 2.5, and probably higher, since you turn in the whole bundle at once.

the point stands. Campaigning costs you something, and for at least two-thirds of options, you see no difference in the final result if future elections are anything like this one. Campaigning is expensive and punishing, which is disappointing- not only did the contrarian get nearly crushed by jenny, but of all 380 echoes of materials minimum, 215 might as well have been thrown down the well that is seeking.

In short, the game's result for losing adds insult to injury, since the payout is a net loss and your candidate lost. even seeking is better than that, as you progress sometimes. This is completely pointless.

Note: I revoke all complaints if the card is different based on how well you supported your candidate, but this seems unlikely.
edited by Grenem on 7/18/2016

Expensive and punishing is a pretty good simulation of the electoral system :P Like, you contribute money and/or hours and, if its a long shot, you're going to lose short of a miracle.

For me the satisfaction was knowing I did everything I possibly could for my candidate. I even gave up some of my Parabola-linen to raise my notability. Maybe next time things will go in my candidate's favor - Jenny won London's heart, but I get the sense that her margin was unusual and future elections will be closer.

But, you know, the echo loss was not really that great, when I consider the Mourning Candles, Brandy, and Collated Research I earned in the final week plus my campaign's payout. Getting your election career to 20 is not remotely difficult, afterwards you're free to profit. The real costs are in Making Waves, but then those costs are independent of the election.

Does anyone have the 'celebratory' text for the Bishop? The Contrarian has confided in me as one of his backers, and I've overheard Jenny's text echoed someplace, but not the Bishop.

Shadowcthuhlu wrote:

Huzzuh! We had an election and nothing burned down!

Not besides the Bishop's hopes and dreams, of course.

MrBurnside wrote:

Professor Sketch wrote:

Grenem wrote:

Professor Sketch wrote:

Grenem wrote:

Snip

Snip

Snip

Dirty Secrets, Convincing Rhetoric, and Public Attention can't be sold.
edited by Professor Sketch on 7/19/2016

Actually, they can. The option is in the silver boardered "An Electoral Opportunity!" storylet pinned at the top of the page. There's some fun text in there if you still have any resources left.

I know, but not to the Bazaar. Though you're right, technically that means they can be sold.
So Grenem isn't even complaining about losing money.
They're just complaining that they actually worked for the Election when they could have been selling the Election Resources.
Grenem, you didn't even lose anything, did you?

Come to think of it, must it be a mayoral election next year? A university election where three people struggle to become the next Benthic Principal would be awesome fun times.

Estelle Knoht wrote:

Come to think of it, must it be a mayoral election next year? A university election where three people struggle to become the next Benthic Principal would be awesome fun times.

University elections though don't have a mass voter base - they're decided by relatively small groups. That sounds more like the subject for an Exceptional Story.
edited by Anne Auclair on 7/19/2016

Optimatum wrote:

Anne Auclair wrote:

1. Is an actual double agent in service to the Sisterhood and her pose of being a fallen nun is an elaborate deception.

Didn't we already know that? I'm not sure the phrase "double agent" is accurate, as that implies working against the best interests of one party. But we already knew pretty explicitly that she was an agent for the Sisterhood in London from Bag a Legend and the election.

Working with and being supported by the Sisterhood is a bit different from being sent on a literal secret mission by the head of the Abbey.

She's supposed to be an agent of Mr. Wines - Mr Wines certainly considers her one. But here we see she started out an agent of the Sisterhood and her fall from grace backstory was an elaborate cover story.