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ExcArc
ExcArc
Posts: 44

6/24/2016
Be warned that this contains spoilers.
I recently opted to raise the "Supremacy: the Dawn Machine" quality up to 7 in order to see what would happen. Having completed the task with great difficulty I returned home to London to find...

Very little change, if any at all. The text was mildly eerie, but versus the Neath's background creepiness it wasn't enough to do much as register a blip. Yes, the Dawn Machine may brainwash people, but even so they don't seem to remove their personality. They have shown no great desire to harm humanity and certainly have been much kinder to humans than any other Judgement. Is a humanist Judgement, even one that asks for worship, truly that bad? Between monster and deity who care very little for us, I can think of many things worse.

Even my waif- er, favored colleague the Carnelian Exile who left the Dawn Machine has little enough bad to say, only stating that she left. Now I'm not ready to sign up as a Sequencer just yet, but can we truly and immediately call it evil?
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Fincar
Fincar
Posts: 41

6/25/2016
First of all you should put a spoiler tag in the title of the topic if you are going to discuss something like this instead of the OP.

That said, the Dawn Machine it certainly is tyranic in it's own way, besides I think calling the Dawn Machine a "humanist Judgement" just because it dosen't inmediatly (physicaly) harm the humans arround it is going a bit too far. In that note he has done the exact same than any other Judgement and less than our own natural Sun (wich may I remind you is a Judgement).

Remember just being close enogh to the Machine is harmful to humans in the a psycological sense, and robs them of their free will, wich depending on your perspective may be worse than the other Judgements who usually limit themselves to the physical aplications of the Law. Emphasis on usually.

--
A person of some little importance... really

I am open to most forms of social interactions.

http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Fincar
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Julius Stokes
Julius Stokes
Posts: 113

6/25/2016
THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN -Sunless Sea

--
http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Julias~Stokes - A revolutionary of his own sort, who has devoted his life to overthrowing the Bazaar, ascending to godhood, and saving London. Doesn't have to be in that order. I'll accept any social actions - except maybe suspicious loitering.
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ExcArc
ExcArc
Posts: 44

6/25/2016
Fincar wrote:
First of all you should put a spoiler tag in the title of the topic if you are going to discuss something like this instead of the OP.

That said, the Dawn Machine it certainly is tyranic in it's own way, besides I think calling the Dawn Machine a "humanist Judgement" just because it dosen't inmediatly (physicaly) harm the humans arround it is going a bit too far. In that note he has done the exact same than any other Judgement and less than our own natural Sun (wich may I remind you is a Judgement).

Remember just being close enogh to the Machine is harmful to humans in the a psycological sense, and robs them of their free will, wich depending on your perspective may be worse than the other Judgements who usually limit themselves to the physical aplications of the Law. Emphasis on usually.

Apologies and noted for next time.

It's not just that they don't hurt them. The Dawn Machine actively works to make humans happier. They are not just not hurting humans, they are actively working with them much of the time, such as [spoiler]the decision to help you fight the sunlight or giving you a Dawn Element in exchange for your assistance.[/spoiler]

The free will avoidance is a bit harder to swallow, I'll admit, but there is very literal information on how that works. First, we know that people can leave it, potentially even willingly. Its treated like more of a cult than anything, and it could even be voluntary. If there's more information, maybe I missed it, but every interaction you have with the Dawn Machine happens with you approaching them. There are the bright barges, but every faction but London has violent boats so I'm more tempted to call that a gameplay convention.

I'm again not ready to sign up or call it unanimously good, but there's definitely more to the picture than just "Evil bastard mind controls for evil reasons."
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Fincar
Fincar
Posts: 41

6/25/2016
ExcArc wrote:

Apologies and noted for next time.

It's not just that they don't hurt them. The Dawn Machine actively works to make humans happier. They are not just not hurting humans, they are actively working with them much of the time, such as [spoiler]the decision to help you fight the sunlight or giving you a Dawn Element in exchange for your assistance.[/spoiler]

The free will avoidance is a bit harder to swallow, I'll admit, but there is very literal information on how that works. First, we know that people can leave it, potentially even willingly. Its treated like more of a cult than anything, and it could even be voluntary. If there's more information, maybe I missed it, but every interaction you have with the Dawn Machine happens with you approaching them. There are the bright barges, but every faction but London has violent boats so I'm more tempted to call that a gameplay convention.

I'm again not ready to sign up or call it unanimously good, but there's definitely more to the picture than just "Evil bastard mind controls for evil reasons."


I am afraid I have to point out that the Dawn Machine dosen't help you out of the goodness of it's core. It's payment because you have something it needs and youa re wiling to sell it, wich is neither good or evil really.

While it is possible that the New Secuence could be beneficial to humanity, as you stated we just do not know enogh about the Dawn Machine's end game other than it wants more power to replace the current Law upheld by the Judgements, however the fact that it recruits by breaking someones will to it's own instead of explaining it's goals and working with willing subjects is.... not reasuring.
edited by Fincar on 6/25/2016

--
A person of some little importance... really

I am open to most forms of social interactions.

http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Fincar
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ExcArc
ExcArc
Posts: 44

6/25/2016
Fincar wrote:


I am afraid I have to point out that the Dawn Machine dosen't help you out of the goodness of it's core. It's payment because you have something it needs and youa re wiling to sell it, wich is neither good or evil really.

While it is possible that the New Secuence could be beneficial to humanity, as you stated we just do not know enogh about the Dawn Machine's end game other than it wants more power to replace the current Law upheld by the Judgements, however the fact that it recruits by breaking someones will to it's own instead of explaining it's goals and working with willing subjects is.... not reasuring.
edited by Fincar on 6/25/2016

That's fair, I suppose. We shall probably have to wait for more content on them before my dreams of moral ambiguity are brought shattering down by the Dawn machine being terribly unkind.
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Optimatum
Optimatum
Posts: 3551

6/26/2016
Have you ever zailed West off the map? The Dawn Machine is... quite clearly not sane, even by non-human standards, and very definitely does not have humanity's best wishes at heart.

The Dawn Machine was created by a faction in the Admiralty so they could rewrite Law, and the moment it was complete enough to do so it mind-controlled them all. It wants to control everything no matter the cost. Controlling all nearby humanity is not its end goal - it wishes to actively destroy the very stars in the sky.

"Time will die. The Chain will end."

--
Optimatum, a ruthless and merciful gentleman. No plant battles, Affluent Photographer requests, or healing offers; all other social actions welcome.

Want a sip of Cider? Just say hi! Christmas Cards appreciated though, especially the Fogscape with Tentacles.

PM me for information enigmatic or Fated. Though the forum please, not FL itself.
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Arensen
Arensen
Posts: 70

6/29/2016
I'm not entirely sure whether or not OP understands the significance of the Chain in the Sunless Sea mythos, but I can assure you that this is one of the few cases where preserving the status quo is probbly a really good idea. HOWEVER. It does raise the interesting question of whether or not the Dawn Machine is evil. Its wish to destroy the stars, Time, and the Chain may seem evil, however it could (and this is a very conjecture-y could) could just wish to upend the status quo because that's what it was built to do--establish a new order of things, and I don't think that we can necessarily call that evil immediately. Dangerous and completely unstable, on the other hand, absolutely.

--
Mysteries are fire. Truth burns.
http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Arensen
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Silphium
Silphium
Posts: 5

7/8/2016
It does raise some disturbing questions when TLON seems so naturally justified and the Dawn Machine seems so naturally evil (the ideas behind them are too close for comfort).

--
For Jenny.
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Kittenpox
Kittenpox
Posts: 869

7/8/2016
ExcArc wrote:
Apologies and noted for next time.

It should be possible for you to edit the original post, allowing you to update the title & apply spoiler tags within your existing post, as appropriate. :-)

--
Kittenpox
Current [Fabulous Diamond] count: Twenty-Five (of 50). Halfway there! ^_^
Metaphysical Caprice: 11.
-
Currently: Returned to the Neath, and regaining my footing in this place. :-)
NO PLANT BATTLES PLEASE.
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Hotshot Blackburn
Hotshot Blackburn
Posts: 110

7/10/2016
Silphium wrote:
It does raise some disturbing questions when TLON seems so naturally justified and the Dawn Machine seems so naturally evil (the ideas behind them are too close for comfort).


The ideas behind how both the LoN and the Dawn Machine plan to achieve their goals are very similar yes. There are those opposed to the LoN on the same grounds as opposed to the Dawn Machine aka - the light going out would just be a bad thing.

But the actual goals behind them make the LoN more palatable and the Dawn Machine more terrible. The latter wishes to conduct what is effectively a coup d'état against the current dictatorship and then take over as the new leader: the former wishes to end that dictatorship forever.
edited by Hotshot Blackburn on 7/10/2016

--
Hotshot Blackburn: Messidor, Aspirant to the Calendar Council. Paramount Presence. Seeker of the Name. A firm believer in kindness, solidarity, and sufficient use of force and firepower.
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Edward Warren
Edward Warren
Posts: 120

7/20/2016
Personally I've always found the New Sequence and their Radiant Master quite creepy. Sure they don't say anything overtly threatening, but that sense of cheeriness and how they try to charm you into doing their bidding reminds me too much of a textbook cult. Sucker you in with vague, cheerful sounding platitudes and then (quite literally) brainwash and screw you over in the end. I admit I've almost been tempted into doing The Machine's bidding, if only to see what would happen. And that' when I saw it:

TIME WILL DIE. THE CHAIN WILL END.



--
WHAT IS BELOW CANNOT ESCAPE WHAT IS ABOVE
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A Dimness
A Dimness
Posts: 613

7/20/2016
I never saw the Judgements as dictators. To me, the Judgements always were simply there to enforce laws of sensibility and logic, which is very much needed seeing as the Neath is a pretty horrifying place all around. The stars are just space-cops, yah?

--
A truth so strange it can only be lied into existence
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suinicide
suinicide
Posts: 2403

7/20/2016
Their taxes are very high. They demand every soul in existence.

--
http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/profile/sunnytime
A gentleman seeking the liberation of knowledge, with a penchant for violence.
RIP suinicide, stuck in a well. Still has it under control.
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Vavakx Nonexus
Vavakx Nonexus
Posts: 892

7/20/2016
suinicide wrote:
Their taxes are very high. They demand every soul in existence.



It's not like you'll need it after you die, and, after all, it's basically a young-ass Judgement that may grow up to be something bigger and shinier.

--
Amets Estibariz, the Moulting Eidolon: Cradled by a sun all their own.


Blabbing, the Hobo Everyone Knows: The One Who Pulls The Strings. A Clarity In The Darkness.


Charlotte and the Caretaker: A family?
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Optimatum
Optimatum
Posts: 3551

7/25/2016
Infinity Simulacrum wrote:
The stars are just space-cops, yah?

Nah, the stars are space politicians - they make the laws. It's the dragons that are the law enforcement.

--
Optimatum, a ruthless and merciful gentleman. No plant battles, Affluent Photographer requests, or healing offers; all other social actions welcome.

Want a sip of Cider? Just say hi! Christmas Cards appreciated though, especially the Fogscape with Tentacles.

PM me for information enigmatic or Fated. Though the forum please, not FL itself.
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Scienceandponies
Scienceandponies
Posts: 234

10/19/2016
Optimatum wrote:
Infinity Simulacrum wrote:
The stars are just space-cops, yah?

Nah, the stars are space politicians - they make the laws. It's the dragons that are the law enforcement.


Except when you die and revive in the Neath and try to return to the surface, you don't get a dragon sent after you. The light just strikes you perma-dead on the spot, so it would seem their light has some direct role in maintaining those laws.
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suinicide
suinicide
Posts: 2403

10/19/2016
I think the dragons are more anti-corruption. They watch the judgements to make sure none of them are doing anything.

--
http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/profile/sunnytime
A gentleman seeking the liberation of knowledge, with a penchant for violence.
RIP suinicide, stuck in a well. Still has it under control.
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Optimatum
Optimatum
Posts: 3551

10/20/2016
Scienceandponies wrote:
Optimatum wrote:
Infinity Simulacrum wrote:
The stars are just space-cops, yah?

Nah, the stars are space politicians - they make the laws. It's the dragons that are the law enforcement.


Except when you die and revive in the Neath and try to return to the surface, you don't get a dragon sent after you. The light just strikes you perma-dead on the spot, so it would seem their light has some direct role in maintaining those laws.

True, space politicians is not the best metaphor, though it's more fitting than space police as they create the laws themselves.

On the original topic, Zubmariner has informed us that the Dawn Machine literally eats souls. So it's at least as bad as the Judgements there, except the Judgements are polite enough to wait until you're done using yours.
edited by Optimatum on 10/20/2016

--
Optimatum, a ruthless and merciful gentleman. No plant battles, Affluent Photographer requests, or healing offers; all other social actions welcome.

Want a sip of Cider? Just say hi! Christmas Cards appreciated though, especially the Fogscape with Tentacles.

PM me for information enigmatic or Fated. Though the forum please, not FL itself.
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