MrBurnside
Posts: 188
6/16/2016
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Sir Joseph Marlen wrote:
...Bloody justice is still considered justice, no matter how many bodies have to drop to do it. That doesn't make it definitely right or justified, per se...
The thing is: if it's "justice" then it's "justified." The words can't be meaningfully removed from one another. This is more then whether or not they share a root, it about how we define them. "Nice" may not always be a part of "justified," but it means that no unreasonable harm was done. If disproportionate or unreasonable harm was done: then the word no longer applies.
I'm sorry if my objection comes across as... well cross, but, having lived through nineties comics I'm not eager to resume them.
On another matter entirely, I feel like the Game gets a bad rap in this story. The only person who asks you to do such terrible things is Alice. Throughout most of the nineteenth century espionage was mostly used to maintain the status-quo. The status-quo may have been pretty much crap pretty much of the time, but that's neither here nor there. Information gathering and dissemination is inherently deceptive, but rarely so bloodthirsty as the conquests of Great Powers were. If nothing else such flashiness would increase the heat on you and get you killed.
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Sir Joseph Marlen
Posts: 575
6/16/2016
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MrBurnside wrote:
Sir Joseph Marlen wrote:
...Bloody justice is still considered justice, no matter how many bodies have to drop to do it. That doesn't make it definitely right or justified, per se...
The thing is: if it's "justice" then it's "justified." The words can't be meaningfully removed from one another. This is more then whether or not they share a root, it about how we define them. "Nice" may not always be a part of "justified," but it means that no unreasonable harm was done. If disproportionate or unreasonable harm was done: then the word no longer applies.
I'm sorry if my objection comes across as... well cross, but, having lived through nineties comics I'm not eager to resume them.
On another matter entirely, I feel like the Game gets a bad rap in this story. The only person who asks you to do such terrible things is Alice. Throughout most of the nineteenth century espionage was mostly used to maintain the status-quo. The status-quo may have been pretty much crap pretty much of the time, but that's neither here nor there. Information gathering and dissemination is inherently deceptive, but rarely so bloodthirsty as the conquests of Great Powers were. If nothing else such flashiness would increase the heat on you and get you killed.
Oh, no worries about being cross! We're merely having a discussion, no harm in that. When I say "bloody justice", I'm meaning it from the perspective of someone who would see it as that: just. However, just because someone thinks something is or isn't just doesn't mean that the opinion is inherently true. That's what I'm referring to, that someone could see the murders as being just in their actions but that doesn't make their belief inherently right or wrong. I myself chose to replace Alice with Catherine and to send our Cheesemonger to find peace in the Church. That being said, I don't like saying something definitely is or isn't evil since I've been wrong many a time before and the situation isn't exactly Fallout levels of moral clarity.
And yes, I agree that the Great Game gets a bad rap. Sure, that doesn't mean that it's good either, and it certainly doesn't mean that the people within it are above judgement, but the Great Game is simply a medium of spies and information that tips the scale of power. It could certainly be used for wrong by keeping a negative part of the status quo from disappearing or allowing someone to abuse an unbalance of power in their favor, but it could also be used to keep peace and order as well as offer aid and growth to weaker organizations in need of support. In the end, it's more like a tool in how its usage and outcome depends on the user and the circumstances surrounding it. Killing it off entirely wouldn't really be my suggestion, nor would slaughtering a chunk of it that one deems to be corrupted, but I wouldn't rule someone as wrong for thinking themself a justice seeker should they consider eliminating harmful and unchecked elements despite the risk as a right. Again, that's not what I'd personally wish to do, but I hesitate to call it "bad".
edited by Sir Joseph Marlen on 6/16/2016
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Sir Joseph Marlen - The Romantic Sophist
Alexus Harven - The Defiant Fatalist
Rose Reinhelm - The Respectful Revolutionary
Cappuccino - The Perfidious Spycraft
Available for any and all social actions.
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Anne Auclair
Posts: 2215
6/16/2016
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Anne thought Alice's scheme completely deranged. The Masters could be trusted to make the problem go away. That was the important thing.
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http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Anne%20Auclair
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Passionario
Posts: 777
6/16/2016
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Sir Joseph Marlen wrote:
And yes, I agree that the Great Game gets a bad rap.
Life is like a zailing trip and our bodies are the ships
And without a higher purpose we would all be cast adrift
So to provide us guidance, the Powers That Be gave us a gift
And like most gifts you get these days, it was a game
I only play one game, but it's a great game, I tell you
I do the things I do because the Great Game tells me to
If I wanna know how to be great, it's playing Great Game that I'll do
Cause Great Game is a game and it is great and it's a game
I know the Great Game's great because the Great Game says it's great
I know the Great Game knows it's great because a great game would know, mate
You wouldn't be blamed without a blame game and I think it's just the same
You can't be great without the Great Game cause it's great and it's a game
I tried to play some other games, but I soon gave up on that
You can't kill other players, steal their stuff or twist the facts
I can't play baccarat cause there are fixed rules for bets
And you can't change them on a whim and that's bad, cause it's not great
Just because the game condones
Ruined lives and broken bones
With armies of obedient drones
Ruled from crooked Surface thrones
Just because what empires do
Will end up killing me and you
Just cause Alice is insane
Doesn't mean that we should ever give acclaim
To any other game
But the Great Game
'Cause it's great
And it's a game
And it's a game
And it's quite great!
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Passionario: Profile, Story, Ending
Passion: Profile, Appearance
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knguy
Posts: 70
6/16/2016
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I play the Game occasionally, but it's just, it's so boring. Spies never want to stand out and they're even willing to kill people permanently to advance goals that do not coincide with my own. I doubt any of them have ever enjoyed a single party in their lives. And they're too serious to try the old-fashioned style of larceny.
But Urchins? They have the Topsy King, the Flit, and Mahogany Hall, which high society visits regularly. What more do you need?
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"Knguy" - a rich, well connected, and steadfast gentleman. Terribly indulgent. Cunningly charming. Prone to zeezickness.
"No CP waste."
Have mysteries or need to gain second chances? Send me requests! High Shadowy/Persuasive. (yes, I loiter)
Nightmares/Suspicion woes? Stop hesitating! Let me know and I'll take care of those issues!
I am a Crooked-Cross! Invite me to your Salon.
Convenient wikia link
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Shadowcthuhlu
Posts: 1557
6/16/2016
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knguy wrote:
I play the Game occasionally, but it's just, it's so boring. Spies never want to stand out and they're even willing to kill people permanently to advance goals that do not coincide with my own. I doubt any of them have ever enjoyed a single party in their lives. And they're too serious to try the old-fashioned style of larceny.
But Urchins? They have the Topsy King, the Flit, and Mahogany Hall, which high society visits regularly. What more do you need?
Clearly you are playing the game wrong. I always play with a fine suit and a drink in my hand.
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https://www.fallenlondon.com/profile/Dirae%20Erinyes. Closed to calling cards, but open for all other social action. I also love to roleplay.
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Myrto
Posts: 209
6/16/2016
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Myrto enacted the Cheesemonger's plan and did all the terrible things that went along with it. I wavered between that and just walking away.
Edith replaced the Cheesemonger with her daughter and sent the Cheesemonger to the Tomb Colonies.
Jack is still debating what to do. The storylet is still in his lodgings, lurking, awaiting an answer.
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Myrto, a mysterious veteran spy who is only on their own side. Married to navchaa!
Edith Alpha Doyle, social climber with grand ambitions; Correspondent who would be happy to assist you in whatever way she can.
, teenage orphan who came to the Neath to pursue a career in crime; monster-hunter. Currently on the Seeking road.
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Eglantine-Fox
Posts: 872
6/17/2016
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I replaced her and sent her to the Church. Eglantine is a sentimentalist who didn't want to have to hurt her or her daughter, but also didn't want to let the spree of murders happen.
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Eglantine Fox, the charming and androgynous Correspondent, teetering between hobbies of seduction and self-destruction.
Siobhan O'Malley, Irish patriot (or 'bl__dy Fenian' if you're impolite).
Isidore Day, an up-and-coming London gentleman. All allegations of wrongdoing are categorically denied.
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CALLNXW
Posts: 116
6/17/2016
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Blew them all to smithereens without regrets. Can't trust noone else to kill people here.
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https://www.fallenlondon.com/Profile/Call%20Now
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dismallyOriented
Posts: 215
6/17/2016
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On a related note--a long time ago, me and Little_The made a doc where people could state and explain their choices for parts of FL's major (mostly non-FATE) storylines, including the Cheesemonger's Fate. It was equal parts rationale and retrospective.
In any case the doc hasn't been updated in over a year and now is missing some of the more recent additions to the game, but if you want to look it over or add yourself in, you're welcome to.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1PtgDKcg2Zu0ZoQwvYaRBOhaqm_kaCjglxhnD71eLPBY/edit?usp=sharing
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Lythalia
Posts: 21
7/7/2016
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I enacted the plan. If you asked me why, I would probably say that I just wanted it all to end. But if that was true, wouldn't I have just walked away? Or just planted the explosives? I had more than enough beetles, I could've done it. But no, I know that wasn't the case. I had no alternate motives, no prejudices against the players of the game. I think, if I'm truthful with myself, I just wanted to see if I could get away with it.
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I've been playing FL for about a month, so and advice would be appreciated!
If you would like to chat without the warryness Londen oozes, my tumblr is Occultling!
http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/lythalia
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Fincar
Posts: 41
7/7/2016
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In the end I sent her to the church and let Catherine take her place.
My reasoning is that even if I enacted Alice's plan the game would not stop, the players would only get new pawns to play with. Not to mention if there isn't a Chessmonger there will be a power vaccum wich will only be filled with blood and corpses until someone potentially worse rises to take her place.
So why send her to the church instead of just killing her or send her to the tomb colonies? Because honestly I fell it is not my place to judge her, and I am not sure I would not do the same on her place.
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A person of some little importance... really
I am open to most forms of social interactions.
http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Fincar
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Amelia Syrus
Posts: 626
7/7/2016
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My character enacted the plan, only because it mimicked what she has planned further down the line. The ending basically made her re-think doing anything without a backup plan.
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Amelia Syrus: A Drunken Thief For Hire.
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DeserterKalak
Posts: 94
7/7/2016
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I blew her and her daughter up. I was on an anti-Masters kick at the time, and though I don't like the spies and understand Alice's righteous fury at what they did to her and hers, I did NOT want to cripple the surface nation's attempts to meddle with the bazaar or cut off their intelligence. Plus, I wasn't entirely convinced that the Game is made up exclusively of evil sociopaths, so letting her murder everyone for vengeance seemed wrong. They had to be stopped.
Of course, it turns out the spies are just as ensnared in the bazaar's web as the rest of us (maybe even more so), so arguably all the Game does is cause human misery, and stopping Alice didn't hurt the bazaar at all :/
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https://www.fallenlondon.com/profile/DeserterKalak
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Johny Topside
Posts: 46
7/7/2016
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Prior to this, I tried to play good ol Johny without killing anyone permanently (hell, I let Scatherwick go free) and more than that, to never kill anyone temporarily if I felt it unjust. I had to reason a lot of this out to get away with my moral compass remotely intact. (For example, that revolutionary I indirectly had murdered was probably involved in the LoN) I went for killing the spies, only because I felt they were less innocent than Alice and Catherine and I'm also trying to do a no dying run for RP reasons. I could've let the story go unplayed and I did for some time, but there was FATE involved and it was cluttering up my deck unreasonably.
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http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Johny~Topside
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Wooster
Posts: 17
7/8/2016
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I try to play my character (on the big decisions, at least) as a Lawful Neutral: the Law, in this case, being Truth. He therefore has a bit of a revolutionary streak as well. So, having worked for the Cheesemonger faithfully, there was little point in not following through with her plan to upset the balance of power in the Great Game. Maybe the Masters would get an upper hand, maybe they wouldn't, who knows? But it would be the rising and falling of many, and that's enough for me.
From a game point-of-view, I think it was also the choice that span out the storyline the longest.
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The Congenital Pedant is looking for friends. He is particularly interested in Second Chance actions, but has Loitered Suspiciously quite enough for a while. He will particularly gladly criticise your Salon guests' spelling, punctuation, grammar, construction, plotting, characterisation and indeed any and every aspect of their attempts at High Literature.
No Affluent Photographers or pass-the-parcel please.
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Fincar
Posts: 41
7/9/2016
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Wooster wrote:
I try to play my character (on the big decisions, at least) as a Lawful Neutral: the Law, in this case, being Truth. He therefore has a bit of a revolutionary streak as well.
Lawful=Revolution.... wait what?
I know this is a bit off-topic but a Lawful character usually would deffer to an authority, in this case the Masters being the closest thing to it.
So... would you please elaborate on that?
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A person of some little importance... really
I am open to most forms of social interactions.
http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Fincar
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DeserterKalak
Posts: 94
7/9/2016
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Fincar wrote:
Wooster wrote:
I try to play my character (on the big decisions, at least) as a Lawful Neutral: the Law, in this case, being Truth. He therefore has a bit of a revolutionary streak as well.
Lawful=Revolution.... wait what?
I know this is a bit off-topic but a Lawful character usually would deffer to an authority, in this case the Masters being the closest thing to it.
A lawful character is under no obligation to recognise the illegitimate authority of alien usurpers who have stolen his nation's capital and usurped it's lawful government.
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https://www.fallenlondon.com/profile/DeserterKalak
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Kaijyuu
Posts: 1047
7/9/2016
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I betrayed her to the masters because I felt the whole situation was getting way too chaotic. I'm normally on the chaos and anarchy side of things, but this was too far even for me. Some order and stability needed to be restored.
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Be of good cheer. Our contacts have assured us that your sins are forgiven.
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Wooster
Posts: 17
7/11/2016
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Fincar wrote:
Wooster wrote:
I try to play my character (on the big decisions, at least) as a Lawful Neutral: the Law, in this case, being Truth. He therefore has a bit of a revolutionary streak as well.
Lawful=Revolution.... wait what?
I know this is a bit off-topic but a Lawful character usually would deffer to an authority, in this case the Masters being the closest thing to it.
So... would you please elaborate on that?
There are authorities and authorities. It's not just about governing authorities; Lawful characters may instead follow a moral code or a tradition. In this instance, my character follows the Unconfined philosophy, which celebrates the uncovering of Truth at any cost. (And privileges that affiliation over any other.) Sometimes, it turns out that uncovering the truth is an attack on the established order: this can put him on the side of the Revolutionaries. Indeed, he feels most at home with the Revolutionaries, since (in his view) the established order is normally opposed to Truth. But he will have dealings with anyone, provided it allows him access to deeper Truth.
--
The Congenital Pedant is looking for friends. He is particularly interested in Second Chance actions, but has Loitered Suspiciously quite enough for a while. He will particularly gladly criticise your Salon guests' spelling, punctuation, grammar, construction, plotting, characterisation and indeed any and every aspect of their attempts at High Literature.
No Affluent Photographers or pass-the-parcel please.
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