Absintheuse
Posts: 348
6/10/2016
|
We're continuing to improve how a character's gender and choice of term of address appears in Fallen London. Having had the chance to see how the changes we made in March impacted on the game, and factoring in your feedback, we’ve made a few tweaks, you can read all about it here.
If players wish to choose a different title, you will find the option on ‘The Roof-Tops: Urchins’ Opportunity Card.
edited by Absintheuse on 6/17/2016
|
|
|
+11
link
|
PJ
Posts: 210
6/17/2016
|
Glazier. An actual English word for a tradesman who works with glass. "Glassperson" sounds like you're trying to avoid saying "Glassman", which sounds out of place in the setting, despite its noble goal.
--
https://www.fallenlondon.com/profile/Peter%20James
|
|
|
+14
link
|
Diptych
Administrator
Posts: 3493
6/10/2016
|
Failbetter Blog wrote:
In addition to that, to allow greater self-expression, players can choose any avatar cameo during character creation, regardless of gender.
Just dropping that in there casually? That's big, cool news! I'm happy to see Er-Er-Yes return, too - it wasn't for everyone but it was nice to have!
--
Sir Frederick, the Libertarian Esotericist. Lord Hubris, the Bloody Baron.
Juniper Brown, the Ill-Fated Orphan. Esther Ellis-Hall, the Fashionable Fabian.
|
|
|
+12
link
|
babelfishwars
Administrator
Posts: 1152
6/10/2016
|
Sir Frederick Tanah-Chook wrote:
Failbetter Blog wrote:
In addition to that, to allow greater self-expression, players can choose any avatar cameo during character creation, regardless of gender.
Just dropping that in there casually? That's big, cool news! I'm happy to see Er-Er-Yes return, too - it wasn't for everyone but it was nice to have!
We are very English. I suggested a quiet throat clearing and a meaningful glance - but apparently we had to cater for international players too. 
--
Mars, God of Fish; Leaning Tower of Fish
|
|
|
+11
link
|
aegisaglow
Posts: 202
6/10/2016
|
Hey! This is fantastic, I just have one concern left. I love the profession Glassman, and would enjoy being addressed by the title, but my character isn't a man. Can that profession title be made more gender-neutral? It's literally the only one in the game that is gendered, so it rather stands out.
Aside from that, very happy with these changes! Can't wait for all cameos to be available--I've been holding onto my page from the Libre Visionis for precisely that reason!
--
Mx. Aglow. Glazier, hedonist, devil-teaser, Paramount Presence. Pursuing their Heart's Desire.
Ms. Lilian Leith. A lady of proper standing, which seems like an increasingly ludicrous thing to give a rat's ___ about. Known (to some) for her Light Fingers.
|
|
|
+10
link
|
Passionario
Posts: 777
6/22/2016
|
Anne Auclair wrote:
Glazier is cool, but it's also the title of a fairly normal and mundane profession that works with London windows, lanterns, gaslights, display cases and such. Mr Fires probably employs quite a few such glaziers..
There are also quite a few people with licentiate degrees who do not owns any gant lists.
--
Passionario: Profile, Story, Ending
Passion: Profile, Appearance
|
|
|
+7
link
|
Sara Hysaro
Moderator
Posts: 4514
6/22/2016
|
It'd probably be pretty easy to come up with something cool sounding if we take it a step towards the mysterious, like Glass-Walker or something.
--
http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Sara%20Hysaro
Please do not send SMEN, cat boxes, or Affluent Reporter requests. All other social actions are welcome.
Are you a Scarlet Saint? Send a message my way to be added to the list.
|
|
|
+7
link
|
PJ
Posts: 210
6/24/2016
|
Could references to "walking" and "dancing" be considered insensitive to serpents?
--
https://www.fallenlondon.com/profile/Peter%20James
|
|
|
+6
link
|
Vavakx Nonexus
Posts: 892
6/22/2016
|
Passionario wrote:
Anne Auclair wrote:
Glazier is cool, but it's also the title of a fairly normal and mundane profession that works with London windows, lanterns, gaslights, display cases and such. Mr Fires probably employs quite a few such glaziers..
There are also quite a few people with licentiate degrees who do not owns any gant lists.
Don't forget all the people who write the correspondence we so eagerly steal.
--
Amets Estibariz, the Moulting Eidolon: Cradled by a sun all their own.
Blabbing, the Hobo Everyone Knows: The One Who Pulls The Strings. A Clarity In The Darkness.
Charlotte and the Caretaker: A family?
|
|
|
+6
link
|
Diptych
Administrator
Posts: 3493
6/23/2016
|
I like "Glass-Walker" a lot, but I feel I should stick up for pretty, pink, pony-like things in general, for they are also fine and excellent!
--
Sir Frederick, the Libertarian Esotericist. Lord Hubris, the Bloody Baron.
Juniper Brown, the Ill-Fated Orphan. Esther Ellis-Hall, the Fashionable Fabian.
|
|
|
+6
link
|
phryne
Posts: 1351
6/15/2016
|
About the Glassman:
I'm not 100% sure, but I think it's part of Parabolan lore that gender really doesn't mean anything there. Note that in the profession's description, the Glassman is referred to as "she".
There's also a Fate-locked Destiny where the "Fingerkings' Huntsman" is mentioned - without implying that this Huntsman actually needs to be male. In the same mood, how do we know whether all of the Finger"Kings" are male? I think it's just down to the whole weirdness of the realm of Is-Not.
Mind you, I'm not saying that I wouldn't feel weird being called "Glassman". I'm just saying there's probably a reason for it... ***
(*** if reason counts for anything in Parabola)
--
Accounts: Bag a Legend • Light Fingers • Heart's Desire • Nemesis • no ambition
Exceptional Stories, sorted by Season and by writer ― Favours & Renown Guide
|
|
|
+6
link
|
Optimatum
Posts: 3666
6/15/2016
|
Calembredaine wrote:
phryne: you probably see the Glassman being referred to as "she" because your character is a lady - gentlemen and individuals of mysterious and indinstinct gender see a "he". I think, at least? I haven't checked in a very long time but I remember it being a point of contention a while ago.
This one is still troublesome but those changes are very welcome, thanks Failbetter! Now to hopefully get my bugged page of the Liber Visionis back and update my cameo.
Nope, that's generic description text and doesn't change with set gender - my character is male and saw "she" too, iirc.
phryne wrote:
In the same mood, how do we know whether all of the Finger"Kings" are male?
To vaguely paraphrase a book, who cares if Fingerkings are male or female - being a Fingerqueen would be a completely different job.
edited by Optimatum on 6/15/2016
--
Optimatum, a ruthless and merciful gentleman. No plant battles, Affluent Photographer requests, or healing offers; all other social actions welcome.
 Want a sip of Cider? Just say hi!
PM me for information enigmatic or Fated. Though the forum please, not FL itself.
|
|
|
+6
link
|
aegisaglow
Posts: 202
6/17/2016
|
Anne Auclair wrote:
Saevitia wrote:
Regarding the "glassman" profession, I think "glasser" would work well without getting bogged down in unnecessary gendering. Rather like it's a Monster-Hunter, not a Monster-Huntsman; or a Midnighter, rather than a Midnightsman or Priestess of St. Joshua.
This suggestion has merit. What does everyone else think?
edited by Anne Auclair on 6/17/2016
I was on the fence until someone complained it was "political correctness gone mad", which is usually a sign you're heading in the right direction. :p
Seriously I'm not sure I can come up with anything better, but I'm glad people are talking about it & making it clear to Failbetter there's room for improvement here.
--
Mx. Aglow. Glazier, hedonist, devil-teaser, Paramount Presence. Pursuing their Heart's Desire.
Ms. Lilian Leith. A lady of proper standing, which seems like an increasingly ludicrous thing to give a rat's ___ about. Known (to some) for her Light Fingers.
|
|
|
+6
link
|
absimiliard
Posts: 759
6/15/2016
|
I'm not thrilled with Glassman, but I accept it. Some times it fits my character, sometimes it's wrong. I should certainly have preferred a gender-neutral term.
For what it's worth Glass-Lady fails the same "roughly half of the time" for me that Glassman does.
--
"Because, Parabola!" -- the Curious Captain
Eating nightmares from friends -- and I'm easy to befriend.
Absimiliard: the Black Rose of Wolfstack Docks
|
|
|
+5
link
|
Mr Sables
Posts: 597
6/10/2016
|
Absintheuse wrote:
We're continuing to improve how a character's gender and choice of term of address appears in Fallen London. Having had the chance to see how the changes we made in March impacted on the game, and factoring in your feedback, we’ve made a few tweaks, you can read all about it here.
Great news! 
I noticed - in the preview cameos - I still only have those for indistinct gender. Will pre-existing players be able to change their avatar cameos to any of any gender later on, too?
|
|
|
+4
link
|
babelfishwars
Administrator
Posts: 1152
6/10/2016
|
Robin Alexander wrote:
Absintheuse wrote:
We're continuing to improve how a character's gender and choice of term of address appears in Fallen London. Having had the chance to see how the changes we made in March impacted on the game, and factoring in your feedback, we’ve made a few tweaks, you can read all about it here.
Great news!
I noticed - in the preview cameos - I still only have those for indistinct gender. Will pre-existing players be able to change their avatar cameos to any of any gender later on, too?
Er... That will be a thing. Sorry - it was meant to be implemented and the wrong switch was flicked or a button wasn't pressed or... we're on it.
--
Mars, God of Fish; Leaning Tower of Fish
|
|
|
+4
link
|
Luminen Walker
Posts: 172
6/25/2016
|
Glazier or Glass-Walker would be my choices if it can't be Glassman anymore. Preferably Glazier. Why Glazier? Because it wouldn't be the first career to take on a warped meaning in the Neath. In this case not only dealing with Glass but with the things behind it.
It's not exactly clear what Glassmen do beyond "something involving Parabola." Maybe they're involved in the mirror or glass trade as well. It also grants a rather mundane cover for a position I think certain elements would frown upon.
edited by TeslaWalker on 6/25/2016
--
1 - Cpt. Martin Walker, a Paramount and Marvellous Dreamer.
2 - Ariana Crivelli, a silent and sagacious lady.
|
|
|
+4
link
|
Màiread
Posts: 385
6/26/2016
|
That's true, those words exist in English and without an obvious grammatical gender, but they are still cases of using a male term as if it is gender neutral (we could have adopted 'saboteuse', but the male version is always used when speaking in general or the group is mixed - so all actresses are female, but when you have both, it's actors, and we say 'inside the actors studio'). So, it's still pretty much using 'man' as if it meant 'person', it's just better hidden than in 'fireman', is all I'm saying. Personally I like glass-walker, but no solution is perfect.
And genuinely, I apologise if I seemed flippant. It is just that as someone who has trod this particular road before as a student I can speak from experience when I say the jokes get really wearing, really fast.
--
Màiread - Correspondent, composer, lover of cats. Can probably bake you a d__n fine cake.
Useful Links: Traveller's Friend (Progress Tracker & Notability Calculator) | phryne's Guide to Favours & Renown |
Peggy the Nowoman lived to see the Feast. Thank you for the memories, Snow Lady.
I'm happy to accept most social actions except for lethal sparring and loitering suspiciously. Please challenge my plant! Currently not accepting calling cards.
|
|
|
+4
link
|
LawrenceKeyworth
Posts: 73
6/23/2016
|
I love Glass-Walker and Glassdancers, those both ring in line with some of the other professions and the fallen london flavour.
--
http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/LawrenceKeyworth
|
|
|
+4
link
|
Morkan Kassington
Posts: 261
6/22/2016
|
Sara Hysaro wrote:
It'd probably be pretty easy to come up with something cool sounding if we take it a step towards the mysterious, like Glass-Walker or something.
Glassdancers?
Glass.....hole?
--
Ladies of the Neath, here comes Morkan Kassington, the gem among gentlemen
(He is actually a self-centered and foolish braggart, but he means no harm. Hit him up for social actions or dangerous lessons! Or just flirt.)
|
|
|
+3
link
|
Frederick Metzengerstein
Posts: 69
6/18/2016
|
Robin Alexander wrote:
The pedantic part of me wants to correct Frederick.
It may not be the case in American/Canadian English, but the distinction between genders - in terms of grammar - does exist in British English. The French grammar is obeyed in British English; fiance/fiancee, blond/blonde. The game being set in London - before mass communication - leads me to believe such distinctions would exist there, too.
I’m a pedant too and I disagree with Mr Alexander.
In fact it’s North America which most frequently uses the French grammatical gender; British English prefers blonde in all cases. According to the Oxford English Dictionary (can there be a more authoritative source on English and especially British English?):
blonde | blond, adj. and n.… etymology … in North America commonly written blond like the French masculine, but in Britain the form blonde is now preferred in all senses
The Oxford English Dictionary quotes the following examples of blonde men:
1481 Myrrour of Worlde (Caxton) ii. xvii. 103 The rayes of the sonne make the heer of a man abourne or blounde.
?1488 Caxton tr. Laurent Ryal Bk. sig. Ov, They arraye theyr heer lyke wymmen and force it to be yelowe, and yf they be blacke, they by crafte make them blounde and abourne.
1683 J. Evelyn Mem. (1857) II. 192 Prince George of Denmark..had the Danish countenance, blonde.
1837 T. Carlyle French Revol. II. i. xi. 82 That little blonde-locked too hasty Dauphin.
1881 G. Allen Anglo-Saxon Brit. vii. 56 We know that the pure Anglo-Saxons were a..blonde-complexioned race.
[1887 F. W. Nietzsche Zur Genealogie der Moral i. 21 Das Raubthier, die prachtvolle nach Beute und Sieg lüstern schweifende blonde Bestie.]
1907 G. B. Shaw Major Barbara Pref. in John Bull's Other Island 151 Nietzsche..is the victim in England of a single much quoted..phrase ‘big blonde beast’.
1911 G. K. Chesterton Innocence of Father Brown x. 266 The man..was a magnificent creature... In structure he was the blonde beast of Nietzsche.
1949 G. B. Shaw Sixteen Self Sketches xiv. 105 My auburn hair was never really Highland red like my sister Agnes's. But I was a ‘blonde beast’ of Danish type unmistakably.
|
|
|
+3
link
|
Frederick Metzengerstein
Posts: 69
6/18/2016
|
That said, glazier is pretty cool.
|
|
|
+3
link
|
Frederick Metzengerstein
Posts: 69
6/26/2016
|
Màiread wrote:
Regrettably that wouldn't really help the situation, since -eur is a masculine ending
Sure, in French. But in good old no-grammatical-gender English we have female voyeurs, provocacteurs, amateurs, connoisseurs, entrepreneurs, restraunteurs and saboteurs!
Also, not to make fun, but calling anything a speculum tends to lead to some fairly predictable jokes.
Just can't win, I guess.
|
|
|
+3
link
|
Frederick Metzengerstein
Posts: 69
6/25/2016
|
The problem with glassdancer and glasswalker, in my opinion (and I prefer the former to the latter, so go figure), is that they evoke Lord Dunsany rather than Jules Verne. They're too fantastic. Something a bit more scientific might be more in the spirit of the age (the age that gave us the Crystal Palace and all the wonders of the modern age).
Maybe something combining vitreous (of or relating to glass) or crystallic with the suffix -naut, or -mancer. Vitreonaut? Crystallmancer?
edited by Frederick Metzengerstein on 6/25/2016
|
|
|
+3
link
|
Zero
Posts: 136
6/10/2016
|
Really happy about the return of the Mysterious and Indistinct Gender! I know "person" sounded more politically correct, but this choice is much more fascinating.
(Sooner or later, I'll buy the mysterious and indistinct mug from your store. Sooner or later.)
--
SEND ME CHESS AND I SHALL RECIPROCATE
Daniel Ember - Once a doctor. Now something else.
My Twine games
|
|
|
+3
link
|
Grenem
Posts: 2067
6/10/2016
|
Robin Alexander wrote:
Kukapetal wrote:
I'm sure a lot of people will be happy with the changes, but I admit to being sad that the "person of mysterious and indistinct gender" returned to our profiles. My character uses a gender neutral cameo because it was the cameo that most resembled him, but is male and there's really no secret or confusion about it (he runs around shirtless). I liked having "person" in the description on his profile because it at least eliminated the gender confusion that really shouldn't be an issue with him :P
I do realize that you can't please everyone though. Just kind of a shame for me personally.
Call me dumb, but how is 'person' any less ambiguous than 'individual'? :-S
Or are we on about something else here :-S
Person vs. "person of mysterious and indistict gender", if i'm reading this right. one implies the gender may be known or unknown, the other that the gender is unknown.
--
Married!:http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/takuza
I will accept all social actions that do not consume free evenings- and i will provide patronage to anyone who requests it, though it will be split between all requesters.
On psudeo-hiatus. Will be inactive and active and fluctuate without warning.
Grinding Favors without cards: http://community.failbettergames.com/topic22266-storylet-favors-grinding.aspx
|
|
|
+3
link
|
aegisaglow
Posts: 202
6/17/2016
|
Anne Auclair wrote:
Again, I'd like to flog Glass Lady as the simplest solution. Yes, this would make the Glass profession the only one with two variants of its name, but as its the only title that's gendered I think that's fair.
edited by Anne Auclair on 6/17/2016
That still doesn't solve the problem for individuals of mysterious and indistinct gender, though.
edited by aegisaglow on 6/17/2016
--
Mx. Aglow. Glazier, hedonist, devil-teaser, Paramount Presence. Pursuing their Heart's Desire.
Ms. Lilian Leith. A lady of proper standing, which seems like an increasingly ludicrous thing to give a rat's ___ about. Known (to some) for her Light Fingers.
|
|
|
+3
link
|
Frederick Metzengerstein
Posts: 69
6/17/2016
|
Vavakx Nonexus wrote:
Glassmeister?
I like glassmeister or glasmeister. Sounds like a nice way to carry on the neath’s fine tradition of vaguely misspelled German words.
Although etymologically meister is German, probably from Yiddish, the combiningform –meister is used in English (and in German) to denote ‘a person skilled or strongly associated with something (usually indicated by the first element)’, i.e. its definition is not gender in English.
Some words with the –meister element in the English language:
schlockmeister (since the early 20C)
spinmeister (since the 1980s)
webmeister (since the 1990s)
funkmeister
gagmeister
schmaltzmeister
newsmeisters
pubmeister
Not really English words, but well known to English speakers (without accurate English equivalents):
rittmeister (since the 16C)
kapellmeister (since the early 18C)
|
|
|
+3
link
|
Saevitia
Posts: 58
6/17/2016
|
Regarding the "glassman" profession, I think "glasser" would work well without getting bogged down in unnecessary gendering. Rather like it's a Monster-Hunter, not a Monster-Huntsman; or a Midnighter, rather than a Midnightsman or Priestess of St. Joshua.
--
Saevitia's profile and appearance! [Gone NORTH]
Now playing Esméralda, Saevitia's former helmswoman and moralistic Campaigner; she looks like this.
I'm usually up for RP. Social actions are generally accepted; those with in-character RP invitations are most likely to be reciprocated.
|
|
|
+3
link
|
Vavakx Nonexus
Posts: 892
6/17/2016
|
Glassmeister?
--
Amets Estibariz, the Moulting Eidolon: Cradled by a sun all their own.
Blabbing, the Hobo Everyone Knows: The One Who Pulls The Strings. A Clarity In The Darkness.
Charlotte and the Caretaker: A family?
|
|
|
+2
link
|
Mr Sables
Posts: 597
6/17/2016
|
Anne Auclair wrote:
Umm, not sure what you're talking about. We have land ladies, headmistresses, and actresses...
Though now that I think about it, Glasser does sound rather slangy. Huh.
Again, I'd like to flog Glass Lady as the simplest solution. Yes, this would make the Glass profession the only one with two variants of its name, but as its the only title that's gendered I think that's fair.
edited by Anne Auclair on 6/17/2016
Like I said, those alternatives exist, but are rarely used . . .
In everyday parlance, women often get called 'landlords' or 'actors', which is why I think gender-neutral terms aren't always necessary. It'd make more sense - in some cases - to reclaim a term and use it for both genders, as opposed to changing them . . . in this case, 'man' may be problematic for some, as its connotations are a lot stronger and more explicit. I can understand that.
I'm not sure 'glasser' is an alternative, while 'glassmeister' is actually pretty cool . . .
I'm wondering why not just 'glass-person'?
Gendering the term, using 'glassman' or 'glass lady' has the issue others mentioned, where it's not quite right for those of ambiguous genders or other genders . . . I'm not sure some would be comfortable picking a binary gendered term. 'Person' is neutral, comes without any baggage or connotations, and could be used for all types of genders.
|
|
|
+2
link
|
Sara Hysaro
Moderator
Posts: 4514
6/17/2016
|
Glazier definitely sounds cool.
--
http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Sara%20Hysaro
Please do not send SMEN, cat boxes, or Affluent Reporter requests. All other social actions are welcome.
Are you a Scarlet Saint? Send a message my way to be added to the list.
|
|
|
+2
link
|
Frederick Metzengerstein
Posts: 69
6/17/2016
|
Also the history of glass generally goes:
1. Glassblowing was developed probably during the 1C BCE by glassmakers in Syria.
2. The Romans perfected cameo glass.
3. The next major developments in the history of glass came during the 15C in Venice.
4. In the 16C diamond-point engraving was practiced in particular in The Netherlands and in Germany.
5. Late in the 17C Bohemia became an important glass-producing area and remained important until early in the 20C.
6. By the 17C England was making glass in the Venetian tradition that was notable for its simplicity. Their glass was particularly favoured by the Dutch diamond-point engravers.
7. Enameling came into fashion in the middle of the 18C in England, leading to the development of Bristol glass.
I won’t go on because from here on it basically stays with the Anglo-Americans, Irish and French.
Anyway, my point is, glassmeister or glasmeister could have been inherited by English speakers from the Dutch, German and Bohemian-Silesian glass-making traditions.
|
|
|
+2
link
|
Optimatum
Posts: 3666
6/10/2016
|
Koh Kai Ying wrote:
Ah I would have liked to use one of the neutral portrait as a lady.
If I interpret right, you can! Either by paying Fate to change your portrait, or by doing the Uncovering Secrets of the Face-Tailor storyline for a Page from the Liber Visionis, which allows you to change your portrait once.
--
Optimatum, a ruthless and merciful gentleman. No plant battles, Affluent Photographer requests, or healing offers; all other social actions welcome.
Want a sip of Cider? Just say hi!
PM me for information enigmatic or Fated. Though the forum please, not FL itself.
|
|
|
+2
link
|
LawrenceKeyworth
Posts: 73
6/15/2016
|
Oh, good I'm so glad to see "individual of mysterious" etc return to the profile pages.
I too like the earlier poster would love to see Glassman become gender neutral as well, at some point.
Thanks again (and still!) for doing such a good job with gender. I originally heard about the game on Autostraddle in the context of how well it treats gender. It's really refreshing to see a game where the developers are dedicated to being open and then *continue* to think critically and try to improve the game playing experience.
--
http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/LawrenceKeyworth
|
|
|
+2
link
|
fortluna
Posts: 306
6/10/2016
|
Could we also have the option of changing genders for the accounts that were obliged to for the cameo before?
|
|
|
+2
link
|
Frederick Metzengerstein
Posts: 69
6/25/2016
|
Another root we could use is speculum, literally mirror, whixh often appeared in the titles of medieval books. Since the word is Romantic, perhaps the French -eur ending -- say speculeur?
|
|
|
+2
link
|
Màiread
Posts: 385
6/25/2016
|
Regrettably that wouldn't really help the situation, since -eur is a masculine ending (you change adjectives ending -eur to -euse or -trice in most cases, so chanteur is a male singer, chanteuse a female one). You'd still be saying 'glassman'.
Also, not to make fun, but calling anything a speculum tends to lead to some fairly predictable jokes.
--
Màiread - Correspondent, composer, lover of cats. Can probably bake you a d__n fine cake.
Useful Links: Traveller's Friend (Progress Tracker & Notability Calculator) | phryne's Guide to Favours & Renown |
Peggy the Nowoman lived to see the Feast. Thank you for the memories, Snow Lady.
I'm happy to accept most social actions except for lethal sparring and loitering suspiciously. Please challenge my plant! Currently not accepting calling cards.
|
|
|
+2
link
|
absimiliard
Posts: 759
6/23/2016
|
I like Glass-walker a lot. Some of us, the older ones in the crowd, might find a bit of interest in the reference to White Wolf's werewolves as well.
--
"Because, Parabola!" -- the Curious Captain
Eating nightmares from friends -- and I'm easy to befriend.
Absimiliard: the Black Rose of Wolfstack Docks
|
|
|
+2
link
|
aegisaglow
Posts: 202
6/26/2016
|
Frederick Metzengerstein wrote:
Maybe something combining vitreous (of or relating to glass) or crystallic with the suffix -naut, or -mancer. Vitreonaut? Crystallmancer?
-naut conflicts with the next tier, the as yet unavailable Oneironaut, and -mancer feels too D&D.
The understatedness of Glazier is pretty good, and Glasswalker and Glassdancer both have this slightly whimsical feel to them that seems appropriate for dealing with Parabola.
--
Mx. Aglow. Glazier, hedonist, devil-teaser, Paramount Presence. Pursuing their Heart's Desire.
Ms. Lilian Leith. A lady of proper standing, which seems like an increasingly ludicrous thing to give a rat's ___ about. Known (to some) for her Light Fingers.
|
|
|
+2
link
|
aegisaglow
Posts: 202
6/22/2016
|
Glazier is another fine suggestion.
Has anyone tried to use a Page from the Liber Visionis since the cameo change went live, by the way? Want to know if it works and lets you choose any cameo now or not.
edit: If anyone else was curious, it appears to work--I used it, and when I go to my "Change my Cameo" page it said "You have an opportunity to change your face. Choose your new face below" with all the cameos beneath it. I haven't actually done it yet because I'm super indecisive, but it's nice to have the opportunity.
edited by aegisaglow on 6/22/2016
--
Mx. Aglow. Glazier, hedonist, devil-teaser, Paramount Presence. Pursuing their Heart's Desire.
Ms. Lilian Leith. A lady of proper standing, which seems like an increasingly ludicrous thing to give a rat's ___ about. Known (to some) for her Light Fingers.
|
|
|
+2
link
|
Mr Sables
Posts: 597
6/22/2016
|
Anne Auclair wrote:
Robin Alexander wrote:
Anne Auclair wrote:
Umm, not sure what you're talking about. We have land ladies, headmistresses, and actresses...
Like I said, those alternatives exist, but are rarely used . . .
I still don't know what you're talking about. I use them all the time. And lady in particular is fairly ubiquitous (skip to the three minute mark).
Okay, out of genuine curiosity, would it be okay to ask where you're from?
I was expecting some sort of local news piece, when you gave a link, not quite a scripted movie set in Victorian times. Firstly, terms change very rapidly in what is/isn't accepted, or what is/isn't common . . . remember when I said some exceptions were necessary, in when gender-neutral terms are preferable? "Mankind" used to be very common until recent decades, but now we use 'human race' or 'people'. Taking something someone says from the Victorian era - particularly in a scripted play, which will use a very specific language, not 'everyday parlance' - doesn't really seem applicable to the argument it's somehow "ubiquitous".
That being said . . .
I will concede these terms are used, which I don't recall arguing otherwise. If they weren't used at all, the "Best Actress" category wouldn't exist in the Oscars, for example. That being said, locally these terms aren't often used; I'm not sure if it's to do with what are seen as roles belonging to a particular gender, like an unconscious lingering sexism, because 'waitress' is still commonly used here, for example, while 'headmistress' and 'actress' are considered somewhat outdated or 'posh'. I do think society is changing to gender-neutral terms (for better or worse); example, we no longer have 'stewardesses' but 'flight attendants', or 'mankind' but 'the human race'.
It's like how technically we have "songstress" to refer to a female singer, but when was the last time you heard that? I'm by no means arguing these female-alternative terms are obsolete or archaic, but I am arguing they are heading that way . . . I may hear the odd 'landlady' on soaps set in London, or films in Victorian Britain, but I'll always hear 'landlord' by local tenants. No, one small area does not equate to the entire English-speaking world, but I think fashions and overall linguistic quirks do point to these changes becoming more common.
The examples above, for one, but I'm sure I could find some academic links if given time (which will require some time, due to both health reasons and social obligations in real-life). In short, I think "glass-woman" would be just as problematic and outdated, but I have no problems with neutral terms like 'glass-person', 'glazier', etc. - I think it's strange people want gendered and segregated language, actually.
In relation to my earlier points, I think it's fine to reclaim gendered terms as gender-neutral ones, such as 'actor'.
I just think it's odd that people want gendered terms to stay gendered.
Edit:
Take these links with a huge grain of salt, as it's a forum:
http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/140950/gendered-terms-particularly-female-becoming-neutral
Will find some actual academic articles later, if I get time.
edited by Robin Alexander on 6/22/2016
|
|
|
+2
link
|
Sara Hysaro
Moderator
Posts: 4514
6/22/2016
|
In my area at least I pretty much never hear people call actresses actors. It's a once in a blue moon sort of thing, with all the people I talk to and all the media I see using the term actress when it fits. I don't hear the other terms often, but admittedly I don't hear their masculine counterparts often either so I can't say whether or not they're used when applicable.
Thinking about it, master at least seems like it ought to be gender neutral, and I could see actor being an inclusive term if the trends turn that way. Lord feels...gendered, though it's such a cool sounding word that I would totally be down with society tossing aside its gendered connotations in favor of making it just a plain old title.
--
edited by Sara Hysaro on 6/22/2016
--
http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Sara%20Hysaro
Please do not send SMEN, cat boxes, or Affluent Reporter requests. All other social actions are welcome.
Are you a Scarlet Saint? Send a message my way to be added to the list.
|
|
|
+2
link
|
babelfishwars
Administrator
Posts: 1152
6/24/2016
|
*looms meaningfully*
Discussion is good. Discuss nice.
Edit: In case unclear - the tone's starting to get a bit snippy, I can see this descending.
edited by babelfishwars on 6/24/2016
--
Mars, God of Fish; Leaning Tower of Fish
|
|
|
+2
link
|
Diptych
Administrator
Posts: 3493
6/24/2016
|
If you hadn't posted, I was about to. Better to drop it than to encounter an impassable and ugly difference of opinion.
--
Sir Frederick, the Libertarian Esotericist. Lord Hubris, the Bloody Baron.
Juniper Brown, the Ill-Fated Orphan. Esther Ellis-Hall, the Fashionable Fabian.
|
|
|
+2
link
|
Anne Auclair
Posts: 2215
6/24/2016
|
Kay, sorry about the snark.
Glassmeister sounds nice and Neathy (Unterzee anyone?). Glasswalker is literally what you do to achieve that profession, walk through and behind the mirrors to uncover the wreathing river. Glassdancer is a more poetic version of walker - I like it for the connotations of moving lightly or skipping between worlds. But otherwise there really isn't that much difference between these three, I think. They all announce you're working with the mirrors/Parabola and do so without the gender problem that Glassman has and without the class problems that glazier has.
edited by Anne Auclair on 6/24/2016
--
http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Anne%20Auclair
|
|
|
+1
link
|
Mr Sables
Posts: 597
6/23/2016
|
I'm not sure I like 'Glass-Dancer' at all . . . it reminds me of 'pretty' and 'pink' things, like the name of a "My Little Pony" character . . . (Edit: this was meant with no implication regarding 'femininity' or 'masculinity'; the terms were picked as they reminded me more of the childlike and fantastical, which - while arguably a part of the profession - seems at odd with the serious nature of the Parabola, as well as some characters who may also be serious characters. Apologies for any confusion.)
Glass-Walker sounds pretty amazing, though I would definitely support that as an option.
edited by Robin Alexander on 6/25/2016
|
|
|
+1
link
|
lady ciel
Posts: 2548
6/22/2016
|
As a Glassman I must say that I don't think glazier works. To me that is someone who fits windows. In Fallen London Glassmen deal with mirrors and what lies beyond them. But to some extent profession titles are tricky and I am not entirely sure what a non-gendered option could be. Maybe Glass-smith or Mirrorsmith, though to some extent that also implies making rather than using.
--
ciel
Sorry RL means I am not a very active player at the moment. No social actions unless you are prepared to wait and definitely no sparring or other mult-action things.
No Calling Cards or boxed cats please. Will take dupes on the affluent photographers. Other social invitations welcome. Parabolan Kittens usually available, send me an in-game social action saying you want one and I will get one to you as soon as possible.
storynexus name - reveurciel
|
|
|
+1
link
|
lady ciel
Posts: 2548
6/22/2016
|
I'm not too sure about that either, it is a bit too close to Master for me.
--
ciel
Sorry RL means I am not a very active player at the moment. No social actions unless you are prepared to wait and definitely no sparring or other mult-action things.
No Calling Cards or boxed cats please. Will take dupes on the affluent photographers. Other social invitations welcome. Parabolan Kittens usually available, send me an in-game social action saying you want one and I will get one to you as soon as possible.
storynexus name - reveurciel
|
|
|
+1
link
|
aegisaglow
Posts: 202
6/26/2016
|
aegisaglow wrote:
Has anyone tried to use a Page from the Liber Visionis since the cameo change went live, by the way? Want to know if it works and lets you choose any cameo now or not.
edit: If anyone else was curious, it appears to work--I used it, and when I go to my "Change my Cameo" page it said "You have an opportunity to change your face. Choose your new face below" with all the cameos beneath it. I haven't actually done it yet because I'm super indecisive, but it's nice to have the opportunity.
edited by aegisaglow on 6/22/2016
Also, quoting myself from a few pages ago, can confirm I was able to switch from a formerly gender-unspecified-exclusive cameo option to a formerly female-exclusive option. (Specifically, from the tomb-colonist to the one with the goggles that look sort of like a furnace grill to me, because I realized I'm always wearing goggles or a mask or my Cosmogone specs and that seemed appropriate). It's pretty cool, I imagine it like my character's severe injuries miraculously healed somehow.
I was very tempted to go with the person holding up opera glasses, since that felt like an appealing interpretation of the Cosmogone specs, but it didn't quite fit those situations where I'm wearing a sneak-thief mask or luminous goggles.
--
Mx. Aglow. Glazier, hedonist, devil-teaser, Paramount Presence. Pursuing their Heart's Desire.
Ms. Lilian Leith. A lady of proper standing, which seems like an increasingly ludicrous thing to give a rat's ___ about. Known (to some) for her Light Fingers.
|
|
|
+1
link
|
Anne Auclair
Posts: 2215
6/24/2016
|
Robin Alexander wrote:
I'm not sure I like 'Glass-Dancer' at all . . . it reminds me of 'pretty' and 'pink' things, like the name of a "My Little Pony" character . . .
I love how you're totally in favor of gender neutral language provided the words, or the things they remind you of, are all sufficiently masculine :P
Anyway, Glass-Walker is also cool. We have some good choices.
edited by Anne Auclair on 6/24/2016
--
http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Anne%20Auclair
|
|
|
+1
link
|
absimiliard
Posts: 759
6/25/2016
|
Thank you Mairead, I was having trouble pointing out that last bit but it's kind of hard to get over.
--
"Because, Parabola!" -- the Curious Captain
Eating nightmares from friends -- and I'm easy to befriend.
Absimiliard: the Black Rose of Wolfstack Docks
|
|
|
+1
link
|
Kittenpox
Posts: 869
6/10/2016
|
fortluna wrote:
Could we also have the option of changing genders for the accounts that were obliged to for the cameo before?
That'd actually be really good - especially for those who chose gender-neutral because they wanted the squid-hats (squid-heads?) as their cameo.
--
Kittenpox
Current [Fabulous Diamond] count: Twenty-Five (of 50). Halfway there! ^_^
Metaphysical Caprice: 11.
-
Currently: Returned to the Neath, and regaining my footing in this place. :-)
NO PLANT BATTLES PLEASE.
|
|
|
+1
link
|
babelfishwars
Administrator
Posts: 1152
6/10/2016
|
Robin Alexander wrote:
Absintheuse wrote:
We're continuing to improve how a character's gender and choice of term of address appears in Fallen London. Having had the chance to see how the changes we made in March impacted on the game, and factoring in your feedback, we’ve made a few tweaks, you can read all about it here.
Great news!
I noticed - in the preview cameos - I still only have those for indistinct gender. Will pre-existing players be able to change their avatar cameos to any of any gender later on, too?
Look again.
--
Mars, God of Fish; Leaning Tower of Fish
|
|
|
+1
link
|
Kukapetal
Posts: 1449
6/10/2016
|
I'm sure a lot of people will be happy with the changes, but I admit to being sad that the "person of mysterious and indistinct gender" returned to our profiles. My character uses a gender neutral cameo because it was the cameo that most resembled him, but is male and there's really no secret or confusion about it (he runs around shirtless). I liked having "person" in the description on his profile because it at least eliminated the gender confusion that really shouldn't be an issue with him :P
I do realize that you can't please everyone though. Just kind of a shame for me personally.
|
|
|
+1
link
|
Calembredaine
Posts: 33
6/15/2016
|
phryne: you probably see the Glassman being referred to as "she" because your character is a lady - gentlemen and individuals of mysterious and indinstinct gender see a "he". I think, at least? I haven't checked in a very long time but I remember it being a point of contention a while ago.
This one is still troublesome but those changes are very welcome, thanks Failbetter! Now to hopefully get my bugged page of the Liber Visionis back and update my cameo.
|
|
|
+1
link
|
absimiliard
Posts: 759
6/10/2016
|
All I know is that person fits Absimiliard just fine and that their gender is a bit hard to determine -- and changes sometimes -- but they are definitely one of male or female.
Which is to say, "I'm good, thanks FBG."
--
"Because, Parabola!" -- the Curious Captain
Eating nightmares from friends -- and I'm easy to befriend.
Absimiliard: the Black Rose of Wolfstack Docks
|
|
|
+1
link
|
Kukapetal
Posts: 1449
6/10/2016
|
Right. "Person" can refer to any gender, so calling my character a "person" is not incorrect. Specifically saying my character's gender is unknown, on the other hand, is definitely incorrect.
|
|
|
+1
link
|
Koh Kai Ying
Posts: 110
6/10/2016
|
Ah I would have liked to use one of the neutral portrait as a lady.
--
Illyria K is your friend!!
More active nowadays. Eager for any social actions including Loitering!
|
|
|
+1
link
|
Meradine Heidenreich
Posts: 468
6/17/2016
|
May not be gendered in English, but German has the great word "Meisterin".
--
https://www.fallenlondon.com/profile/Meradine%20Heidenreich
The Starveling kit
Gobbled up the bit
of cheese on my tray ..
"O Weh!"
No plant battles, please.
|
|
|
+1
link
|
Frederick Metzengerstein
Posts: 69
6/17/2016
|
Unlike -meister, the word meisterin does not exist in English.
Even if it did, I'm not convinced the distinction between its feminine and masculine forms would always be made in English, as English does not have such distinctions of grammatical gender. For example, blond woman or blonde woman, blond man or blonde man are all used in English, even though in French blonde is feminine and blond masculine.
|
|
|
+1
link
|
Frederick Metzengerstein
Posts: 69
6/17/2016
|
In case anyone is worried that English's indifference to grammatical gender is a modern affectation, I submit the following many examples of blond women and blonde men, from the period before and immediately after London was stolen by bats until 1900 (after which political correctness 'went mad'):
Blonde men in 19C books
Blond women in 19C books
edited by Frederick Metzengerstein on 6/17/2016
|
|
|
+1
link
|
Anne Auclair
Posts: 2215
6/17/2016
|
Robin Alexander wrote:
Anne Auclair wrote:
Saevitia wrote:
Regarding the "glassman" profession, I think "glasser" would work well without getting bogged down in unnecessary gendering. Rather like it's a Monster-Hunter, not a Monster-Huntsman; or a Midnighter, rather than a Midnightsman or Priestess of St. Joshua.
This suggestion has merit. What does everyone else think?
edited by Anne Auclair on 6/17/2016
I would legitimately change my profession . . .
It sounds far too chavvy. Personally, I think this is politically correctness gone mad; after all, we still use 'landlord' and 'headmaster' and 'actor', despite alternatives existing for women, or gender-neutral terms being available. If we must change it, though, can we at least pick something that doesn't make it sound like my character dropped out of school, wearing Burberry, to set fire to your carriage wheels?
'You got a problem, blud?' asked the glasser. 'My profession is sick, inni!'
Umm, not sure what you're talking about. We have land ladies, headmistresses, and actresses...
Though now that I think about it, Glasser does sound rather slangy. Huh.
Again, I'd like to flog Glass Lady as the simplest solution. Yes, this would make the Glass profession the only one with two variants of its name, but as its the only title that's gendered I think that's fair.
edited by Anne Auclair on 6/17/2016
--
http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Anne%20Auclair
|
|
|
+1
link
|
Meradine Heidenreich
Posts: 468
6/17/2016
|
Glassist? Glasshat?
--
https://www.fallenlondon.com/profile/Meradine%20Heidenreich
The Starveling kit
Gobbled up the bit
of cheese on my tray ..
"O Weh!"
No plant battles, please.
|
|
|
+1
link
|
Myrto
Posts: 209
6/16/2016
|
Thanks for this change! I missed Myrto's old mysterious and indistinct gender. But I have yet to see the Urchins' card!
--
Myrto, a mysterious veteran spy who is only on their own side. Married to navchaa!
Edith Alpha Doyle, social climber with grand ambitions; Correspondent who would be happy to assist you in whatever way she can.
, teenage orphan who came to the Neath to pursue a career in crime; monster-hunter. Currently on the Seeking road.
|
|
|
+1
link
|
Morkan Kassington
Posts: 261
6/17/2016
|
It is a cool word. As in, glacier-cool. Purrrfect for the incoming summer!
--
Ladies of the Neath, here comes Morkan Kassington, the gem among gentlemen
(He is actually a self-centered and foolish braggart, but he means no harm. Hit him up for social actions or dangerous lessons! Or just flirt.)
|
|
|
+1
link
|
absimiliard
Posts: 759
6/17/2016
|
Glazier, nice.
--
"Because, Parabola!" -- the Curious Captain
Eating nightmares from friends -- and I'm easy to befriend.
Absimiliard: the Black Rose of Wolfstack Docks
|
|
|
+1
link
|
Meradine Heidenreich
Posts: 468
6/17/2016
|
Frederick Metzengerstein wrote:
Unlike -meister, the word meisterin does not exist in English.
Even if it did, I'm not convinced the distinction between its feminine and masculine forms would always be made in English, as English does not have such distinctions of grammatical gender. For example, blond woman or blonde woman, blond man or blonde man are all used in English, even though in French blonde is feminine and blond masculine.
Dear me. I just thought people might be amused at the idea of "masteress". But I stand corrected. (Whoosh!)
--
https://www.fallenlondon.com/profile/Meradine%20Heidenreich
The Starveling kit
Gobbled up the bit
of cheese on my tray ..
"O Weh!"
No plant battles, please.
|
|
|
+1
link
|