Mr Sables
Posts: 597
6/17/2016
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Anne Auclair wrote:
Umm, not sure what you're talking about. We have land ladies, headmistresses, and actresses...
Though now that I think about it, Glasser does sound rather slangy. Huh.
Again, I'd like to flog Glass Lady as the simplest solution. Yes, this would make the Glass profession the only one with two variants of its name, but as its the only title that's gendered I think that's fair.
edited by Anne Auclair on 6/17/2016
Like I said, those alternatives exist, but are rarely used . . .
In everyday parlance, women often get called 'landlords' or 'actors', which is why I think gender-neutral terms aren't always necessary. It'd make more sense - in some cases - to reclaim a term and use it for both genders, as opposed to changing them . . . in this case, 'man' may be problematic for some, as its connotations are a lot stronger and more explicit. I can understand that.
I'm not sure 'glasser' is an alternative, while 'glassmeister' is actually pretty cool . . .
I'm wondering why not just 'glass-person'?
Gendering the term, using 'glassman' or 'glass lady' has the issue others mentioned, where it's not quite right for those of ambiguous genders or other genders . . . I'm not sure some would be comfortable picking a binary gendered term. 'Person' is neutral, comes without any baggage or connotations, and could be used for all types of genders.
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Meradine Heidenreich
Posts: 468
6/17/2016
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Frederick Metzengerstein wrote:
Unlike -meister, the word meisterin does not exist in English.
Even if it did, I'm not convinced the distinction between its feminine and masculine forms would always be made in English, as English does not have such distinctions of grammatical gender. For example, blond woman or blonde woman, blond man or blonde man are all used in English, even though in French blonde is feminine and blond masculine.
Dear me. I just thought people might be amused at the idea of "masteress". But I stand corrected. (Whoosh!)
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PJ
Posts: 210
6/17/2016
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Glazier. An actual English word for a tradesman who works with glass. "Glassperson" sounds like you're trying to avoid saying "Glassman", which sounds out of place in the setting, despite its noble goal.
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https://www.fallenlondon.com/profile/Peter%20James
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absimiliard
Posts: 759
6/17/2016
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Glazier, nice.
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Sara Hysaro
Moderator
Posts: 4514
6/17/2016
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Glazier definitely sounds cool.
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Morkan Kassington
Posts: 261
6/17/2016
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It is a cool word. As in, glacier-cool. Purrrfect for the incoming summer!
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Frederick Metzengerstein
Posts: 69
6/18/2016
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Robin Alexander wrote:
The pedantic part of me wants to correct Frederick.
It may not be the case in American/Canadian English, but the distinction between genders - in terms of grammar - does exist in British English. The French grammar is obeyed in British English; fiance/fiancee, blond/blonde. The game being set in London - before mass communication - leads me to believe such distinctions would exist there, too.
I’m a pedant too and I disagree with Mr Alexander.
In fact it’s North America which most frequently uses the French grammatical gender; British English prefers blonde in all cases. According to the Oxford English Dictionary (can there be a more authoritative source on English and especially British English?):
blonde | blond, adj. and n.… etymology … in North America commonly written blond like the French masculine, but in Britain the form blonde is now preferred in all senses
The Oxford English Dictionary quotes the following examples of blonde men:
1481 Myrrour of Worlde (Caxton) ii. xvii. 103 The rayes of the sonne make the heer of a man abourne or blounde.
?1488 Caxton tr. Laurent Ryal Bk. sig. Ov, They arraye theyr heer lyke wymmen and force it to be yelowe, and yf they be blacke, they by crafte make them blounde and abourne.
1683 J. Evelyn Mem. (1857) II. 192 Prince George of Denmark..had the Danish countenance, blonde.
1837 T. Carlyle French Revol. II. i. xi. 82 That little blonde-locked too hasty Dauphin.
1881 G. Allen Anglo-Saxon Brit. vii. 56 We know that the pure Anglo-Saxons were a..blonde-complexioned race.
[1887 F. W. Nietzsche Zur Genealogie der Moral i. 21 Das Raubthier, die prachtvolle nach Beute und Sieg lüstern schweifende blonde Bestie.]
1907 G. B. Shaw Major Barbara Pref. in John Bull's Other Island 151 Nietzsche..is the victim in England of a single much quoted..phrase ‘big blonde beast’.
1911 G. K. Chesterton Innocence of Father Brown x. 266 The man..was a magnificent creature... In structure he was the blonde beast of Nietzsche.
1949 G. B. Shaw Sixteen Self Sketches xiv. 105 My auburn hair was never really Highland red like my sister Agnes's. But I was a ‘blonde beast’ of Danish type unmistakably.
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Frederick Metzengerstein
Posts: 69
6/18/2016
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That said, glazier is pretty cool.
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aegisaglow
Posts: 202
6/22/2016
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Glazier is another fine suggestion.
Has anyone tried to use a Page from the Liber Visionis since the cameo change went live, by the way? Want to know if it works and lets you choose any cameo now or not.
edit: If anyone else was curious, it appears to work--I used it, and when I go to my "Change my Cameo" page it said "You have an opportunity to change your face. Choose your new face below" with all the cameos beneath it. I haven't actually done it yet because I'm super indecisive, but it's nice to have the opportunity.
edited by aegisaglow on 6/22/2016
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Mx. Aglow. Glazier, hedonist, devil-teaser, Paramount Presence. Pursuing their Heart's Desire.
Ms. Lilian Leith. A lady of proper standing, which seems like an increasingly ludicrous thing to give a rat's ___ about. Known (to some) for her Light Fingers.
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Anne Auclair
Posts: 2215
6/22/2016
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Glazier is cool, but it's also the title of a fairly normal and mundane profession that works with London windows, lanterns, gaslights, display cases and such. Mr Fires probably employs quite a few such glaziers.
So I'm inclined to think that glassmeister is better.
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Anne Auclair
Posts: 2215
6/22/2016
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Robin Alexander wrote:
Anne Auclair wrote:
Umm, not sure what you're talking about. We have land ladies, headmistresses, and actresses...
Like I said, those alternatives exist, but are rarely used . . .
I still don't know what you're talking about. I use them all the time. And lady in particular is fairly ubiquitous (skip to the three minute mark).
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Mr Sables
Posts: 597
6/22/2016
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Anne Auclair wrote:
Robin Alexander wrote:
Anne Auclair wrote:
Umm, not sure what you're talking about. We have land ladies, headmistresses, and actresses...
Like I said, those alternatives exist, but are rarely used . . .
I still don't know what you're talking about. I use them all the time. And lady in particular is fairly ubiquitous (skip to the three minute mark).
Okay, out of genuine curiosity, would it be okay to ask where you're from?
I was expecting some sort of local news piece, when you gave a link, not quite a scripted movie set in Victorian times. Firstly, terms change very rapidly in what is/isn't accepted, or what is/isn't common . . . remember when I said some exceptions were necessary, in when gender-neutral terms are preferable? "Mankind" used to be very common until recent decades, but now we use 'human race' or 'people'. Taking something someone says from the Victorian era - particularly in a scripted play, which will use a very specific language, not 'everyday parlance' - doesn't really seem applicable to the argument it's somehow "ubiquitous".
That being said . . .
I will concede these terms are used, which I don't recall arguing otherwise. If they weren't used at all, the "Best Actress" category wouldn't exist in the Oscars, for example. That being said, locally these terms aren't often used; I'm not sure if it's to do with what are seen as roles belonging to a particular gender, like an unconscious lingering sexism, because 'waitress' is still commonly used here, for example, while 'headmistress' and 'actress' are considered somewhat outdated or 'posh'. I do think society is changing to gender-neutral terms (for better or worse); example, we no longer have 'stewardesses' but 'flight attendants', or 'mankind' but 'the human race'.
It's like how technically we have "songstress" to refer to a female singer, but when was the last time you heard that? I'm by no means arguing these female-alternative terms are obsolete or archaic, but I am arguing they are heading that way . . . I may hear the odd 'landlady' on soaps set in London, or films in Victorian Britain, but I'll always hear 'landlord' by local tenants. No, one small area does not equate to the entire English-speaking world, but I think fashions and overall linguistic quirks do point to these changes becoming more common.
The examples above, for one, but I'm sure I could find some academic links if given time (which will require some time, due to both health reasons and social obligations in real-life). In short, I think "glass-woman" would be just as problematic and outdated, but I have no problems with neutral terms like 'glass-person', 'glazier', etc. - I think it's strange people want gendered and segregated language, actually.
In relation to my earlier points, I think it's fine to reclaim gendered terms as gender-neutral ones, such as 'actor'.
I just think it's odd that people want gendered terms to stay gendered.
Edit:
Take these links with a huge grain of salt, as it's a forum:
http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/140950/gendered-terms-particularly-female-becoming-neutral
Will find some actual academic articles later, if I get time.
edited by Robin Alexander on 6/22/2016
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Sara Hysaro
Moderator
Posts: 4514
6/22/2016
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In my area at least I pretty much never hear people call actresses actors. It's a once in a blue moon sort of thing, with all the people I talk to and all the media I see using the term actress when it fits. I don't hear the other terms often, but admittedly I don't hear their masculine counterparts often either so I can't say whether or not they're used when applicable.
Thinking about it, master at least seems like it ought to be gender neutral, and I could see actor being an inclusive term if the trends turn that way. Lord feels...gendered, though it's such a cool sounding word that I would totally be down with society tossing aside its gendered connotations in favor of making it just a plain old title.
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edited by Sara Hysaro on 6/22/2016
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Passionario
Posts: 777
6/22/2016
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Anne Auclair wrote:
Glazier is cool, but it's also the title of a fairly normal and mundane profession that works with London windows, lanterns, gaslights, display cases and such. Mr Fires probably employs quite a few such glaziers..
There are also quite a few people with licentiate degrees who do not owns any gant lists.
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Vavakx Nonexus
Posts: 892
6/22/2016
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Passionario wrote:
Anne Auclair wrote:
Glazier is cool, but it's also the title of a fairly normal and mundane profession that works with London windows, lanterns, gaslights, display cases and such. Mr Fires probably employs quite a few such glaziers..
There are also quite a few people with licentiate degrees who do not owns any gant lists.
Don't forget all the people who write the correspondence we so eagerly steal.
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Blabbing, the Hobo Everyone Knows: The One Who Pulls The Strings. A Clarity In The Darkness.
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Anne Auclair
Posts: 2215
6/22/2016
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Vavakx Nonexus wrote:
Passionario wrote:
Anne Auclair wrote:
Glazier is cool, but it's also the title of a fairly normal and mundane profession that works with London windows, lanterns, gaslights, display cases and such. Mr Fires probably employs quite a few such glaziers..
There are also quite a few people with licentiate degrees who do not owns any gant lists.
Don't forget all the people who write the correspondence we so eagerly steal.
I don't think those are quite the same. Neither licentiate nor corespondent is the occupation title of a large army of everyday tradesmen. Licentiate refers to someone who has in a sense graduated and the corespondent to someone who writes letters.
Anyway, I think glassmeister is better than glazier, but glazier is far better than glassman.
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lady ciel
Posts: 2548
6/22/2016
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As a Glassman I must say that I don't think glazier works. To me that is someone who fits windows. In Fallen London Glassmen deal with mirrors and what lies beyond them. But to some extent profession titles are tricky and I am not entirely sure what a non-gendered option could be. Maybe Glass-smith or Mirrorsmith, though to some extent that also implies making rather than using.
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ciel
Sorry RL means I am not a very active player at the moment. No social actions unless you are prepared to wait and definitely no sparring or other mult-action things.
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storynexus name - reveurciel
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Anne Auclair
Posts: 2215
6/22/2016
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lady ciel wrote:
As a Glassman I must say that I don't think glazier works. To me that is someone who fits windows. In Fallen London Glassmen deal with mirrors and what lies beyond them. But to some extent profession titles are tricky and I am not entirely sure what a non-gendered option could be. Maybe Glass-smith or Mirrorsmith, though to some extent that also implies making rather than using.
What about glassmeister?
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lady ciel
Posts: 2548
6/22/2016
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I'm not too sure about that either, it is a bit too close to Master for me.
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ciel
Sorry RL means I am not a very active player at the moment. No social actions unless you are prepared to wait and definitely no sparring or other mult-action things.
No Calling Cards or boxed cats please. Will take dupes on the affluent photographers. Other social invitations welcome. Parabolan Kittens usually available, send me an in-game social action saying you want one and I will get one to you as soon as possible.
storynexus name - reveurciel
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Sara Hysaro
Moderator
Posts: 4514
6/22/2016
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It'd probably be pretty easy to come up with something cool sounding if we take it a step towards the mysterious, like Glass-Walker or something.
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