LawrenceKeyworth
Posts: 73
6/15/2016
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Oh, good I'm so glad to see "individual of mysterious" etc return to the profile pages.
I too like the earlier poster would love to see Glassman become gender neutral as well, at some point.
Thanks again (and still!) for doing such a good job with gender. I originally heard about the game on Autostraddle in the context of how well it treats gender. It's really refreshing to see a game where the developers are dedicated to being open and then *continue* to think critically and try to improve the game playing experience.
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http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/LawrenceKeyworth
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Anne Auclair
Posts: 2215
6/15/2016
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LawrenceKeyworth wrote:
Oh, good I'm so glad to see "individual of mysterious" etc return to the profile pages.
I too like the earlier poster would love to see Glassman become gender neutral as well, at some point.
Thanks again (and still!) for doing such a good job with gender. I originally heard about the game on Autostraddle in the context of how well it treats gender. It's really refreshing to see a game where the developers are dedicated to being open and then *continue* to think critically and try to improve the game playing experience.
Yeah, even though I never used that myself, I missed having it gone, so its nice to have it back ^_^
Second the bit about Glassman, though rather than create a new gender neutral title I think it would be more aesthetically pleasing to have an alternative "Glass-Lady." As in, I'm a Glass-lady, thank you very much.
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http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Anne%20Auclair
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phryne
Posts: 1351
6/15/2016
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About the Glassman:
I'm not 100% sure, but I think it's part of Parabolan lore that gender really doesn't mean anything there. Note that in the profession's description, the Glassman is referred to as "she".
There's also a Fate-locked Destiny where the "Fingerkings' Huntsman" is mentioned - without implying that this Huntsman actually needs to be male. In the same mood, how do we know whether all of the Finger"Kings" are male? I think it's just down to the whole weirdness of the realm of Is-Not.
Mind you, I'm not saying that I wouldn't feel weird being called "Glassman". I'm just saying there's probably a reason for it... ***
(*** if reason counts for anything in Parabola) 
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Accounts: Bag a Legend • Light Fingers • Heart's Desire • Nemesis • no ambition
Exceptional Stories, sorted by Season and by writer ― Favours & Renown Guide
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Anne Auclair
Posts: 2215
6/15/2016
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phryne wrote:
About the Glassman:
I'm not 100% sure, but I think it's part of Parabolan lore that gender really doesn't mean anything there. Note that in the profession's description, the Glassman is referred to as "she".
There's also a Fate-locked Destiny where the "Fingerkings' Huntsman" is mentioned - without implying that this Huntsman actually needs to be male. In the same mood, how do we know whether all of the Finger"Kings" are male? I think it's just down to the whole weirdness of the realm of Is-Not.
Mind you, I'm not saying that I wouldn't feel weird being called "Glassman". I'm just saying there's probably a reason for it... ***
(*** if reason counts for anything in Parabola)
Weird language in unreal Parabola is one thing (when you become the Huntsman you've always been the Huntsman, so being the Huntsman is the least of your concerns), while a title of address in London is entirely another :P
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http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Anne%20Auclair
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Calembredaine
Posts: 33
6/15/2016
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phryne: you probably see the Glassman being referred to as "she" because your character is a lady - gentlemen and individuals of mysterious and indinstinct gender see a "he". I think, at least? I haven't checked in a very long time but I remember it being a point of contention a while ago.
This one is still troublesome but those changes are very welcome, thanks Failbetter! Now to hopefully get my bugged page of the Liber Visionis back and update my cameo.
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absimiliard
Posts: 759
6/15/2016
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I'm not thrilled with Glassman, but I accept it. Some times it fits my character, sometimes it's wrong. I should certainly have preferred a gender-neutral term.
For what it's worth Glass-Lady fails the same "roughly half of the time" for me that Glassman does.
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"Because, Parabola!" -- the Curious Captain
Eating nightmares from friends -- and I'm easy to befriend.
Absimiliard: the Black Rose of Wolfstack Docks
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Optimatum
Posts: 3666
6/15/2016
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Calembredaine wrote:
phryne: you probably see the Glassman being referred to as "she" because your character is a lady - gentlemen and individuals of mysterious and indinstinct gender see a "he". I think, at least? I haven't checked in a very long time but I remember it being a point of contention a while ago.
This one is still troublesome but those changes are very welcome, thanks Failbetter! Now to hopefully get my bugged page of the Liber Visionis back and update my cameo.
Nope, that's generic description text and doesn't change with set gender - my character is male and saw "she" too, iirc.
phryne wrote:
In the same mood, how do we know whether all of the Finger"Kings" are male?
To vaguely paraphrase a book, who cares if Fingerkings are male or female - being a Fingerqueen would be a completely different job.
edited by Optimatum on 6/15/2016
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Optimatum, a ruthless and merciful gentleman. No plant battles, Affluent Photographer requests, or healing offers; all other social actions welcome.
 Want a sip of Cider? Just say hi!
PM me for information enigmatic or Fated. Though the forum please, not FL itself.
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Myrto
Posts: 209
6/16/2016
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Thanks for this change! I missed Myrto's old mysterious and indistinct gender. But I have yet to see the Urchins' card!
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Myrto, a mysterious veteran spy who is only on their own side. Married to navchaa!
Edith Alpha Doyle, social climber with grand ambitions; Correspondent who would be happy to assist you in whatever way she can.
, teenage orphan who came to the Neath to pursue a career in crime; monster-hunter. Currently on the Seeking road.
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Saevitia
Posts: 58
6/17/2016
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Regarding the "glassman" profession, I think "glasser" would work well without getting bogged down in unnecessary gendering. Rather like it's a Monster-Hunter, not a Monster-Huntsman; or a Midnighter, rather than a Midnightsman or Priestess of St. Joshua.
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Saevitia's profile and appearance! [Gone NORTH]
Now playing Esméralda, Saevitia's former helmswoman and moralistic Campaigner; she looks like this.
I'm usually up for RP. Social actions are generally accepted; those with in-character RP invitations are most likely to be reciprocated.
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Anne Auclair
Posts: 2215
6/17/2016
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Saevitia wrote:
Regarding the "glassman" profession, I think "glasser" would work well without getting bogged down in unnecessary gendering. Rather like it's a Monster-Hunter, not a Monster-Huntsman; or a Midnighter, rather than a Midnightsman or Priestess of St. Joshua.
This suggestion has merit. What does everyone else think?
edited by Anne Auclair on 6/17/2016
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http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Anne%20Auclair
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aegisaglow
Posts: 202
6/17/2016
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Anne Auclair wrote:
Saevitia wrote:
Regarding the "glassman" profession, I think "glasser" would work well without getting bogged down in unnecessary gendering. Rather like it's a Monster-Hunter, not a Monster-Huntsman; or a Midnighter, rather than a Midnightsman or Priestess of St. Joshua.
This suggestion has merit. What does everyone else think?
edited by Anne Auclair on 6/17/2016
I was on the fence until someone complained it was "political correctness gone mad", which is usually a sign you're heading in the right direction. :p
Seriously I'm not sure I can come up with anything better, but I'm glad people are talking about it & making it clear to Failbetter there's room for improvement here.
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Mx. Aglow. Glazier, hedonist, devil-teaser, Paramount Presence. Pursuing their Heart's Desire.
Ms. Lilian Leith. A lady of proper standing, which seems like an increasingly ludicrous thing to give a rat's ___ about. Known (to some) for her Light Fingers.
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Anne Auclair
Posts: 2215
6/17/2016
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Robin Alexander wrote:
Anne Auclair wrote:
Saevitia wrote:
Regarding the "glassman" profession, I think "glasser" would work well without getting bogged down in unnecessary gendering. Rather like it's a Monster-Hunter, not a Monster-Huntsman; or a Midnighter, rather than a Midnightsman or Priestess of St. Joshua.
This suggestion has merit. What does everyone else think?
edited by Anne Auclair on 6/17/2016
I would legitimately change my profession . . .
It sounds far too chavvy. Personally, I think this is politically correctness gone mad; after all, we still use 'landlord' and 'headmaster' and 'actor', despite alternatives existing for women, or gender-neutral terms being available. If we must change it, though, can we at least pick something that doesn't make it sound like my character dropped out of school, wearing Burberry, to set fire to your carriage wheels?
'You got a problem, blud?' asked the glasser. 'My profession is sick, inni!'
Umm, not sure what you're talking about. We have land ladies, headmistresses, and actresses...
Though now that I think about it, Glasser does sound rather slangy. Huh.
Again, I'd like to flog Glass Lady as the simplest solution. Yes, this would make the Glass profession the only one with two variants of its name, but as its the only title that's gendered I think that's fair.
edited by Anne Auclair on 6/17/2016
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http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Anne%20Auclair
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Meradine Heidenreich
Posts: 468
6/17/2016
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Glassist? Glasshat?
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https://www.fallenlondon.com/profile/Meradine%20Heidenreich
The Starveling kit
Gobbled up the bit
of cheese on my tray ..
"O Weh!"
No plant battles, please.
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Vavakx Nonexus
Posts: 892
6/17/2016
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Glassmeister?
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Amets Estibariz, the Moulting Eidolon: Cradled by a sun all their own.
Blabbing, the Hobo Everyone Knows: The One Who Pulls The Strings. A Clarity In The Darkness.
Charlotte and the Caretaker: A family?
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aegisaglow
Posts: 202
6/17/2016
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Anne Auclair wrote:
Again, I'd like to flog Glass Lady as the simplest solution. Yes, this would make the Glass profession the only one with two variants of its name, but as its the only title that's gendered I think that's fair.
edited by Anne Auclair on 6/17/2016
That still doesn't solve the problem for individuals of mysterious and indistinct gender, though.
edited by aegisaglow on 6/17/2016
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Mx. Aglow. Glazier, hedonist, devil-teaser, Paramount Presence. Pursuing their Heart's Desire.
Ms. Lilian Leith. A lady of proper standing, which seems like an increasingly ludicrous thing to give a rat's ___ about. Known (to some) for her Light Fingers.
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Frederick Metzengerstein
Posts: 69
6/17/2016
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Vavakx Nonexus wrote:
Glassmeister?
I like glassmeister or glasmeister. Sounds like a nice way to carry on the neath’s fine tradition of vaguely misspelled German words.
Although etymologically meister is German, probably from Yiddish, the combiningform –meister is used in English (and in German) to denote ‘a person skilled or strongly associated with something (usually indicated by the first element)’, i.e. its definition is not gender in English.
Some words with the –meister element in the English language:
schlockmeister (since the early 20C)
spinmeister (since the 1980s)
webmeister (since the 1990s)
funkmeister
gagmeister
schmaltzmeister
newsmeisters
pubmeister
Not really English words, but well known to English speakers (without accurate English equivalents):
rittmeister (since the 16C)
kapellmeister (since the early 18C)
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Frederick Metzengerstein
Posts: 69
6/17/2016
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Also the history of glass generally goes:
1. Glassblowing was developed probably during the 1C BCE by glassmakers in Syria.
2. The Romans perfected cameo glass.
3. The next major developments in the history of glass came during the 15C in Venice.
4. In the 16C diamond-point engraving was practiced in particular in The Netherlands and in Germany.
5. Late in the 17C Bohemia became an important glass-producing area and remained important until early in the 20C.
6. By the 17C England was making glass in the Venetian tradition that was notable for its simplicity. Their glass was particularly favoured by the Dutch diamond-point engravers.
7. Enameling came into fashion in the middle of the 18C in England, leading to the development of Bristol glass.
I won’t go on because from here on it basically stays with the Anglo-Americans, Irish and French.
Anyway, my point is, glassmeister or glasmeister could have been inherited by English speakers from the Dutch, German and Bohemian-Silesian glass-making traditions.
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Meradine Heidenreich
Posts: 468
6/17/2016
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May not be gendered in English, but German has the great word "Meisterin".
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https://www.fallenlondon.com/profile/Meradine%20Heidenreich
The Starveling kit
Gobbled up the bit
of cheese on my tray ..
"O Weh!"
No plant battles, please.
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Frederick Metzengerstein
Posts: 69
6/17/2016
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Unlike -meister, the word meisterin does not exist in English.
Even if it did, I'm not convinced the distinction between its feminine and masculine forms would always be made in English, as English does not have such distinctions of grammatical gender. For example, blond woman or blonde woman, blond man or blonde man are all used in English, even though in French blonde is feminine and blond masculine.
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Frederick Metzengerstein
Posts: 69
6/17/2016
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In case anyone is worried that English's indifference to grammatical gender is a modern affectation, I submit the following many examples of blond women and blonde men, from the period before and immediately after London was stolen by bats until 1900 (after which political correctness 'went mad'):
Blonde men in 19C books
Blond women in 19C books
edited by Frederick Metzengerstein on 6/17/2016
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