Optimatum
Posts: 3666
7/13/2017
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Doesn't Where You and I Must Go let you get a point of SMEN as well? (Though my goal isn't to bypass Winking Isle entirely.)
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Optimatum, a ruthless and merciful gentleman. No plant battles, Affluent Photographer requests, or healing offers; all other social actions welcome.
 Want a sip of Cider? Just say hi!
PM me for information enigmatic or Fated. Though the forum please, not FL itself.
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Tystefy
Posts: 450
7/13/2017
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... Bah.
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Will sometimes return to post absurdity.
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Azothi
Posts: 586
7/14/2017
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Optimatum wrote:
I wonder if there's some exact sequence of successes and failures that would let you skip some number of the optional steps and get Who is Salt? without selling everything. Your post inspired me to run some numbers, though I haven't yet tried it out with a character. In short, there should be a number of possible paths, though not all of them are practical.
There are only two results on Winking Isle that will reduce the one's place of your Fasting and Meditation: failing Watch the Well (-385) and failing Inhale the Scents (-1925). The wiki states that you need exactly 111 F&M to unlock the option for obtaining the Sun Beneath the Sea, so this means that we have to begin at F&M 101 (because we can't begin at 66). As a result, our goal with all the fasting and meditating is to get a net increase in F&M of 10.
Luckily, Winking Isle is really easy to work with mathematically. Every success increases F&M by a multiple of 50 and every failure decreases F&M by a multiple of 385. This means we can simplify the whole of Winking Isle into the expression:
50x - 385y
where x is based on the number of successes
and y is based on the number of failures.
The equation most literally asks "What will be your net change in F&M if you succeed at waiting by the well x times and fail at watching the well y times", but practically, we can just say (mathematicians forgive me) that different actions will increase x by different integer amounts. For instance, succeeding at Looking Up is the equivalent of increasing x by 200 while failing at Looking Up is the equivalent of decreasing y by 20.
Every interaction on Winking Isle follows this basic idea. If we were to write the formula as 500x - 385y, basically pretending that waiting by the well doesn't exist, x and y would increase at the same rate per action. Succeeding at Looking Up would then increase x by 20 while failing still decreases y by 20. The artist in me greatly appreciates the symmetry here, but we need to work with 50x - 385y instead to fully represent the experience of fasting and meditating.
Anyway, we just solve this formula for 10 to output the results we want:
50x - 385y = 10
The result is two simple equations, both of which must be satisfied.
x = 77n + 31 AND y = 10n + 4
where n is an integer.
The lowest action cost is where n = 0, which is to say that x = 31 and y = 4. In other words, you have to gain 31 * 50 = 1550 F&M and lose 385 * 4 = 1540 F&M, which is equivalent to succeeding at Watch the Well three times, failing it four times, and waiting by the well once (though not in that order, of course; your last step has to be a failure).
However, for any integer n, you can output a result. For instance, you can gain 5400 F&M and lose 5390 F&M (n = 1), or you can gain 9250 F&M and lose 9240 (n = 2), etc. These are all possible ways of gaining that additional +10 F&M you need to go from 101 to 111 without paying the price. There is technically an infinite number of ways to do this, but it's impractical, to say the least.
If someone were to do this, they wouldn't need to sell their Wild Words, but everything else would still have to go. If the character were to turn back at the Gate, this might be useful, but unless they had absolutely enormous stocks of Wild Words before Winking Isle, it's probably not the best use of actions. But it is possible, and that's pretty neat.
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Bonus Information:
[spoiler]Using this formula, you can also give greater mathematical backing to the statement that you have to begin with 101 F&M for this to work:
50x - 385y has no integer solutions for (111 - 77 = 34), (111 - 88 = 23), or (111 - 99 = 12), which are the only other possible starting points. This is to say that it's impossible to reach exactly F&M 111 from any of those numbers. Of course, this is assuming that you need exactly 111 to gain the Sun Beneath the Sea, but I trust the wiki in this matter.
Other fun facts:
- It's impossible to reach exactly 10,000 or 60,000 F&M, because you're starting with at least 77 F&M.
- The lowest F&M above 60,000 that you can reach having failed at least once is 60,002, though it's practically impossible to reach. This is represented by the equations:
x = 77n + 1237 AND y = 10n + 5
And that's about it.[/spoiler]
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Azoth I, the Emissary of Cardinals - A Paramount Presence (not currently accepting new Proteges)
Away to where the Chain cannot bind us.
 Hesperidean.
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gronostaj
Posts: 403
7/14/2017
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That's some very attractive math right there, I love it.
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Gronostaj (pl. Ermine), a decadent duellist of mysterious and indistinct gender. Seeker. Willing to die- but not of boredom. Open to all social actions, including the harmful ones.
Soft-Spoken Surgeon, a doctor who owes an onerous debt. Professor of medicine at the University by day, at criminal employ by night. Open to all non-harmful social actions.
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Passionario
Posts: 777
7/14/2017
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Speaking of math, the Seeking Road gets rather... interesting at higher levels:
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Passionario: Profile, Story, Ending
Passion: Profile, Appearance
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Optimatum
Posts: 3666
7/14/2017
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Hey, you still have a 1% chance to drown secrets! That's totally doable!
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Optimatum, a ruthless and merciful gentleman. No plant battles, Affluent Photographer requests, or healing offers; all other social actions welcome.
Want a sip of Cider? Just say hi!
PM me for information enigmatic or Fated. Though the forum please, not FL itself.
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Passionario
Posts: 777
7/14/2017
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Drowning secrets is actually a 0% chance; the 1% refers to setting the city aflame via candles.
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Passionario: Profile, Story, Ending
Passion: Profile, Appearance
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The Lord Breakfast
Posts: 70
7/14/2017
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Okay, from what I gather, SMEN 77 is needed to finish, but the best of the UP cards stops at 28 (if I recall correctly). Is Winking Isle the place to go to get SMEN higher than that?
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The Lord Breakfast, Captain Bacon, The Ageless Pirate, Bane of Salad, The Thrice-Mad, Eater of Pelicans
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suinicide
Posts: 2409
7/14/2017
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The Lord Breakfast wrote:
Okay, from what I gather, SMEN 77 is needed to finish, but the best of the UP cards stops at 28 (if I recall correctly). Is Winking Isle the place to go to get SMEN higher than that?
Yes, but you will get a few points from the other options and candles you unlock along the way.
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http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/profile/sunnytime
A gentleman seeking the liberation of knowledge, with a penchant for violence.
RIP suinicide, stuck in a well. Still has it under control.
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dov
Posts: 2580
7/14/2017
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The Lord Breakfast wrote:
Okay, from what I gather, SMEN 77 is needed to finish, but the best of the UP cards stops at 28 (if I recall correctly). Is Winking Isle the place to go to get SMEN higher than that?
Beyond SMEN 28 you need to go to Winking Isle.
But once SMEN is at 63 you can also raise it further by repeatedly zailing Southwards (you get 1 level of SMEN getting there and there's a one action return to London). This should be more efficient than more rounds on Winking Isle.
--
 Want a sip of Hesperidean Cider? Send me a request in-game. Here's an_ocelot's guide how.
(Most social actions are welcome. Please no requests to Loiter Suspiciously and no investigations of the Affluent Photographer)
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Pumpkinhead
Posts: 516
7/15/2017
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dov wrote:
But once SMEN is at 63 you can also raise it further by repeatedly zailing Southwards (you get 1 level of SMEN getting there and there's a one action return to London). This should be more efficient than more rounds on Winking Isle.
Is it really? I must have been really lucky with winking isle, because I felt like rowing south the 3 times I did was waaaaay slower than going back to winking isle.
Tystefy wrote:
I will feel indescribable if the Mr. Eaten Twitter references my quest.
Good luck with that. It's an algorithm that says a random set of words and I doubt anyone has messed with it since Alexis left.
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McGunn/Bsymstad is on the slow boat, waiting to see if he can find out what death is. (I'm done with London for now. Thanks for everything!)
Amanda Albright is a *spoiler* now, like she always wanted.
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Teaspoon
Posts: 866
7/15/2017
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So that's...ooh, if you play the candles right, only twenty nine levels of SMEN between the UP cards and Adam's Way.
A couple of hundred pounds to skip Winking Island. For a Seeking experience that could not possibly have been anticipated and therefore won't occur.
(Something to think about if the goats-goats-goats plan doesn't work out, Tystefy.)
edited by Teaspoon on 7/15/2017
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Truth lies at the bottom of a well.
https://www.fallenlondon.com/profile/Alt%20Ern
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Teaspoon
Posts: 866
7/19/2017
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I've just realised that the Carnival is the most northward point in London.
And it's where you eat Rubbery Lumps.
Subtle, that. Subtle.
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Truth lies at the bottom of a well.
https://www.fallenlondon.com/profile/Alt%20Ern
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Optimatum
Posts: 3666
7/19/2017
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Carnival lumps aren't REAL rubbery lumps though. Not according to the purists on Mutton Island.
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Optimatum, a ruthless and merciful gentleman. No plant battles, Affluent Photographer requests, or healing offers; all other social actions welcome.
Want a sip of Cider? Just say hi!
PM me for information enigmatic or Fated. Though the forum please, not FL itself.
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Teaspoon
Posts: 866
7/19/2017
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But they do give you UP. Sometimes.
Which is the important part.
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Truth lies at the bottom of a well.
https://www.fallenlondon.com/profile/Alt%20Ern
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Dudebro Pyro
Posts: 756
7/19/2017
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Quick questions: is it possible to go through the entirety of SMEN without suffering permanent damage?
For ultimate minimaxing, for instance. Would you be able to get the Seven-Fold Knock, and then gain back everything you lost or sacrificed? Or are there some things that you must give up forever if you go that way?
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Dudebro Pyro, eccentric scholar
Spare Starveling Kitties always welcome. I collect them.
For that matter, send me your unwanted cat boxes too.
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dov
Posts: 2580
7/19/2017
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Dudebro Pyro wrote:
Quick questions: is it possible to go through the entirety of SMEN without suffering permanent damage?
For ultimate minimaxing, for instance. Would you be able to get the Seven-Fold Knock, and then gain back everything you lost or sacrificed? Or are there some things that you must give up forever if you go that way?
Well, I wouldn't recommend starting SMEN with just the goal of getting the Seven-Fold Knock. The cost is significant for the +1 point of BDR this gives over alternatives.
As for the specifics: this depends on what you refer to "permanent damage". During the quest you have to get 7 of each: Scars, Stains, and Chains:
- Chains cannot be removed, but don't really affect anything.
- Scars can be removed in Flute street with extra Fate, but they also don't really affect anything.
- Stains can be removed by playing Flint. These make it impossible to sell your soul through any regular means (which might be either a good or bad thing for you). These also mean that if you manage to specifically sell your stained soul (with Fate) during Hallowmas really really bad things will happen if you ever enter the Forgotten Quarter.
--
Want a sip of Hesperidean Cider? Send me a request in-game. Here's an_ocelot's guide how.
(Most social actions are welcome. Please no requests to Loiter Suspiciously and no investigations of the Affluent Photographer)
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Dudebro Pyro
Posts: 756
7/19/2017
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Thanks for the detailed explanation! I was afraid you'd have to give up things like professions or lodgings. Simply being unable to sell your soul is not too bad.
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Dudebro Pyro, eccentric scholar
Spare Starveling Kitties always welcome. I collect them.
For that matter, send me your unwanted cat boxes too.
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dov
Posts: 2580
7/19/2017
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Dudebro Pyro wrote:
Thanks for the detailed explanation! I was afraid you'd have to give up things like professions or lodgings. Simply being unable to sell your soul is not too bad.
Well, there are other costs, but they are either recoverable or avoidable.
- At some point you'll be asked to give up permanently all Notability, Professions, tattoos, Ambitions, and Destiny. However, you're also given an option to bypass this request.
- At some point you'll be asked to give up all your lodgings or all your Connected/Favours/Renown. This one can by bypassed with Fate (probably). But all of these are recoverable (except for retired lodgings, such as the K&C one).
--
Want a sip of Hesperidean Cider? Send me a request in-game. Here's an_ocelot's guide how.
(Most social actions are welcome. Please no requests to Loiter Suspiciously and no investigations of the Affluent Photographer)
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dov
Posts: 2580
7/19/2017
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Also, some people don't fully recover from Winking Isle. Not the character. The player.
It's a... numbing experience.
:-)
--
Want a sip of Hesperidean Cider? Send me a request in-game. Here's an_ocelot's guide how.
(Most social actions are welcome. Please no requests to Loiter Suspiciously and no investigations of the Affluent Photographer)
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