al2o3cr
Posts: 66
6/5/2016
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PJ wrote:
Is their entire humanoid aspect a disguise, so that their appearance and gender bear no relationship to their underlying bee-qualities?
Given the hints that they existed "when men were still monkeys" and presumably looked like *something* back then, my guess is "yes"...
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TheThirdPolice
Posts: 609
6/6/2016
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A flower grows in Hell that can interbreed with exile's rose. Their offspring produces the terrifying pollen used for gaoler's honey. (This connection to lamplighter bees does not seem coincidental.)
Prisoners of war following the invasion rowed on a brass trireme.
A serpent with a sigil straight out of Eden: "a gift for a woman one hates". No known connection to devils, but maybe someday we'll know how Hell connects to the Christian myths.
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John Moose
Posts: 276
6/6/2016
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Yeah sure, go ahead, at least all the stuff that isn't just our speculation. It'd be nice to have something of a database on our friendzzz.
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Hypersomnus
Posts: 76
6/6/2016
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Professor Sketch wrote:
genesis wrote:
They almost certainly didn't come from Polythreme. They came from Parabola but it's unclear whether that was their ultimate origin
Oh, yes, Parabola - that's what I meant. Isn't Hell part of Parabola, though?
I believe that there was a reference in Sunless Sea that suggested that the Devils were from [spoiler] the High Wilderness, or at least that there were other Devil Hives out there. Thus Devils are not so much Dream-Bees as much as Space-Bees; quite in matching with our resident space-crustacean and space-bats.[/spoiler]
Edited for spoiler tags
edited by Hypersomnus on 6/6/2016
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A Map of the Iron Republic
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Clifton Royston
Posts: 110
6/7/2016
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I can't find my echo for the Loquacious Vicar's storyline with the veterans' information on the attempted invasion of Hell, but besides the "fields of burning roses" mentioned above, I think one of the other pieces of description was: "A throne in the shadow of a gallows."
There are a lot of references in Sunless Sea to Devils (or their agents) making buzzing noises, but to play [cough] Devil's Advocate, that in itself doesn't necessarily mean they're bees. I had considered them to be references to Beelzebub's traditional description as "Lord of the Flies". If there's authoritative statement to that effect elsewhere, however...
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Optimatum
Posts: 3666
6/7/2016
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Killing a devil during the Loquacious Vicar's storyline ends with the devil crumpling and a bee flying out of its mouth.
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Optimatum, a ruthless and merciful gentleman. No plant battles, Affluent Photographer requests, or healing offers; all other social actions welcome.
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John Moose
Posts: 276
6/7/2016
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Hypersomnus, I'll keep an eye out for that reference, I just started a new character so I can do the Wistful storyline. However, their future-fashion that shows a certain non-linearity to the timeline of Hell does make me think more of Parabola (Irem in particular) than the other place.
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Optimatum
Posts: 3666
6/7/2016
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Iirc Parabola hatched from an egg in the High Wilderness but I don't recall any reference to the Devils originating there separately.
edited by Optimatum on 6/7/2016
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Optimatum, a ruthless and merciful gentleman. No plant battles, Affluent Photographer requests, or healing offers; all other social actions welcome.
Want a sip of Cider? Just say hi!
PM me for information enigmatic or Fated. Though the forum please, not FL itself.
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Latining
Posts: 5
6/9/2016
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Clifton Royston wrote:
There are a lot of references in Sunless Sea to Devils (or their agents) making buzzing noises, but to play [cough] Devil's Advocate, that in itself doesn't necessarily mean they're bees. I had considered them to be references to Beelzebub's traditional description as "Lord of the Flies". If there's authoritative statement to that effect elsewhere, however...
This is what I thought too. Bees, flies, wasps, buzzing insects in general are all associated with devils in Christian mythology. I would posit that Hell's Honeybees are to devils as Pentacost Apes are to humans. (That is, they may have some will and capacity for evil, but lack the means and motivation to do any anything truly awful.)
Per Christian mythology, "Satan" is an internal, not external adversary. Given the lore of Fallen London, it makes sense that devils would come from a land of dreams where you can be your best and worst self. In dreaming, humans arguably created devils through their own desires. An external locus of your worst impulses created where reality is thin.
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ExcArc
Posts: 44
6/9/2016
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Optimatum wrote:
Iirc Parabola hatched from an egg in the High Wilderness but I don't recall any reference to the Devils originating there separately.
edited by Optimatum on 6/7/2016
If this is the case, they might be gathering souls to find eggs to hatch more "real estate". It's about the closest we have to a motivation for collecting souls that we've ever got. It also explains why they pay through the nose for more "brilliant souls".
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Optimatum
Posts: 3666
6/9/2016
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ExcArc wrote:
Optimatum wrote:
Iirc Parabola hatched from an egg in the High Wilderness but I don't recall any reference to the Devils originating there separately.
edited by Optimatum on 6/7/2016
If this is the case, they might be gathering souls to find eggs to hatch more "real estate". It's about the closest we have to a motivation for collecting souls that we've ever got. It also explains why they pay through the nose for more "brilliant souls".
I doubt it. Humans were created (or at least sanctioned) by Judgements; human souls are star-spores with some amount of potential to become Judgements. More powerful souls like Brilliant, Silent, or Coruscating Souls are more likely able to become Judgements as far as we can tell. Judgements aren't on the best terms with Devils and Parabola is Very Definitely Illegal so I would be very surprised if these souls the Judgements allow would enable and facilitate any illegal Parabola shenanigans.
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Optimatum, a ruthless and merciful gentleman. No plant battles, Affluent Photographer requests, or healing offers; all other social actions welcome.
Want a sip of Cider? Just say hi!
PM me for information enigmatic or Fated. Though the forum please, not FL itself.
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absimiliard
Posts: 759
6/9/2016
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The Devils predate humans. They recall when humans were still but apes. [source = SS if I recall correctly, starting to get too much Lore to always recall where it comes from]
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"Because, Parabola!" -- the Curious Captain
Eating nightmares from friends -- and I'm easy to befriend.
Absimiliard: the Black Rose of Wolfstack Docks
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MellosRevenant
Posts: 4
6/10/2016
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Optimatum wrote:
ExcArc wrote:
Optimatum wrote:
Iirc Parabola hatched from an egg in the High Wilderness but I don't recall any reference to the Devils originating there separately.
edited by Optimatum on 6/7/2016
If this is the case, they might be gathering souls to find eggs to hatch more "real estate". It's about the closest we have to a motivation for collecting souls that we've ever got. It also explains why they pay through the nose for more "brilliant souls".
I doubt it. Humans were created (or at least sanctioned) by Judgements; human souls are star-spores with some amount of potential to become Judgements. More powerful souls like Brilliant, Silent, or Coruscating Souls are more likely able to become Judgements as far as we can tell. Judgements aren't on the best terms with Devils and Parabola is Very Definitely Illegal so I would be very surprised if these souls the Judgements allow would enable and facilitate any illegal Parabola shenanigans.
So, conjecture: Could they be collecting souls to corrupt them? Perhaps then transforming them into corrupted Judgments that can be controlled by Hell (or other miscellaneous realms)? Considering the power Judgments seem to have, it seems like our friendzzz might wish to control a few...
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ExcArc
Posts: 44
6/10/2016
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MellosRevenant wrote:
So, conjecture: Could they be collecting souls to corrupt them? Perhaps then transforming them into corrupted Judgments that can be controlled by Hell (or other miscellaneous realms)? Considering the power Judgments seem to have, it seems like our friendzzz might wish to control a few...
(Other quotes removed for length.)
There are a couple of possibilities that come to mind. The first is the Dawn Machine, which does in fact prove that creating an "artificial star" is both possible and results in something with the power of a Judgement, albeit in a strange sense. The other is that in Sunless Sea there is a form of magic and/or science called "Red Science" which both the New Sequence and the Calendar Council are seeking for use with their reality warping devices. If I recall correctly (and I will double-check) the Seal of Red Science is associated with Snuffers and Devils.
That said, the primary problem is a lack of evidence. We simply don't see what devils do with souls save for their Abstraction, and once that is complete they seem perfectly willing to let them sit in warehouses. Is there any lore that I am missing where we see devil's using/poking/playing with their souls?
EDIT: A quick check of Sunless Sea shows that (spoilers ahead) the Seal of the Red Science is obtained is Aestival, but they seem to know about it in the Iron Republic, Hell's client state. Links are tenuous at best, but it does become readily apparent that a Judgement Egg (the highest level of soul possible) is involved in the Awakening of said Seal. Tread lightly, friends. This is star business.
edited by ExcArc on 6/10/2016
edited by ExcArc on 6/10/2016
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John Moose
Posts: 276
6/10/2016
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When you give a brilliant soul (in this case, one of a conjoined twin) to the Sommelier in the fidgeting story, he can't wait to get his hands on it and is uncorking it before you're out of the room - no idea what for. The Wistfull Deviless in SS wishes to have some souls for what seems like nostalgia and comfort, if I recall the dialogue right, giving overall the attitude of being handled as particularly dear pieces of art.
Also, if you listen in on the Brimstone Convent you hear the words "Judgement", "Salt", "Ecstatic", IIRC "Ally" and one more, I forget what. So, the overthrown nobility has plans for allying with Judgement(s) to regain control? Who knows.
In Iron Republic, when you ask about why Hell would want a colony, you're answered "The Bazaar won't be here forever. We must make our experiments while we may."'
Maybe they've already created a pseudo-Judgement from the souls they've piled up, and that's how they managed to create Hell separate of the rest of Parabola, maybe outside it completely, by using the pseudo-Judgement to enforce their own laws on their surroundings? And/or maybe Iron Republic is their experiment on altering and enforcing new laws through devil-made pseudo-Judgement(s)?
edited by John Moose on 6/10/2016
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Optimatum
Posts: 3666
6/10/2016
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ExcArc wrote:
There are a couple of possibilities that come to mind. The first is the Dawn Machine, which does in fact prove that creating an "artificial star" is both possible and results in something with the power of a Judgement, albeit in a strange sense. The other is that in Sunless Sea there is a form of magic and/or science called "Red Science" which both the New Sequence and the Calendar Council are seeking for use with their reality warping devices. If I recall correctly (and I will double-check) the Seal of Red Science is associated with Snuffers and Devils.
The Red Science is something which breaks the Great Chain of Being. Specifically the Rubbery Men and other shapelings use it to sculpt flesh. When the Red Science is used, even time is scarred.
I don't recall it ever being mentioned as related to Snuffers or Devils, though I suppose Snuffers are vaguely related to the other shapelings.
John Moose wrote:
Also, if you listen in on the Brimstone Convent you hear the words "Judgement", "Salt", "Ecstatic", IIRC "Ally" and one more, I forget what. So, the overthrown nobility has plans for allying with Judgement(s) to regain control? Who knows.
"Judgements. Dream. Zalt. Alliance. Ecstacy."
edited by Optimatum on 6/10/2016
--
Optimatum, a ruthless and merciful gentleman. No plant battles, Affluent Photographer requests, or healing offers; all other social actions welcome.
Want a sip of Cider? Just say hi!
PM me for information enigmatic or Fated. Though the forum please, not FL itself.
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ExcArc
Posts: 44
6/10/2016
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Optimatum wrote:
ExcArc wrote:
There are a couple of possibilities that come to mind. The first is the Dawn Machine, which does in fact prove that creating an "artificial star" is both possible and results in something with the power of a Judgement, albeit in a strange sense. The other is that in Sunless Sea there is a form of magic and/or science called "Red Science" which both the New Sequence and the Calendar Council are seeking for use with their reality warping devices. If I recall correctly (and I will double-check) the Seal of Red Science is associated with Snuffers and Devils.
The Red Science is something which breaks the Great Chain of Being. Specifically the Rubbery Men and other shapelings use it to sculpt flesh. When the Red Science is used, even time is scarred.
I don't recall it ever being mentioned as related to Snuffers or Devils, though I suppose Snuffers are vaguely related to the other shapelings.
John Moose wrote:
Also, if you listen in on the Brimstone Convent you hear the words "Judgement", "Salt", "Ecstatic", IIRC "Ally" and one more, I forget what. So, the overthrown nobility has plans for allying with Judgement(s) to regain control? Who knows.
"Judgements. Dream. Zalt. Alliance. Ecstacy."
edited by Optimatum on 6/10/2016
Do you, perchance, have a record of what all happens with the Awakened Red Seal in Sunless Sea? It uses a Judgement Egg and Red Science to produce a gun of unspeakable power. It might just be an example of devils using their craft in order to reshape reality around them.
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Optimatum
Posts: 3666
6/10/2016
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I could probably find it in the game files, but off the top of my head it's definitely not something related to devils. The Red Science is the power to reshape life, and the Memento Mori uses that to destroy. The only reason the Iron Republic stop is necessary is because the Cannoneer's friend is there and possibly awakening the seal was too illegal for even vague illegality.
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Optimatum, a ruthless and merciful gentleman. No plant battles, Affluent Photographer requests, or healing offers; all other social actions welcome.
Want a sip of Cider? Just say hi!
PM me for information enigmatic or Fated. Though the forum please, not FL itself.
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James Sinclair
Posts: 253
6/11/2016
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Professor Sketch wrote:
I believe that there was a reference in Sunless Sea that suggested that the Devils were from [spoiler] the High Wilderness, or at least that there were other Devil Hives out there. Thus Devils are not so much Dream-Bees as much as Space-Bees; quite in matching with our resident space-crustacean and space-bats.[/spoiler]
This is interesting...where in Sunless Sea was this Intriguing Snippet of lore mentioned? Similarly, where is it mentioned that Parabola hatched from an egg in the High Wilderness?
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James Sinclair
Curator of the Sanguine Ribbon Society 🗡
 A fully-fledged rêveur of The Night Circus.
Wines is red
Spices is yellow
But old Jack-of-Smiles
Is a murderous fellow
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