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What are everyone's thoughts on Favors and Renown?

Kylestien Posts: 749 5/8/2016	I am curious what peoples thoughts on these qualities are. Personally, I'm in a bit of a bind. On the one hand, I get that they are supposed to be rare and profitable. On the other hand, some are really hard to get and that's becoming more evident as we go on. Rubbery Men for example, have but one way of getting Favors as far as I'm aware and that is their card. -- I will accept all actions, though I hold the right to refuse for my own reasons. However, if you explain WHY you send me a harmful action like Loitering or Dantes,And I feel the reason good, I will consider it more. http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Kylestien Persuasive patron. You want a lesson, send me a message asking for one.
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dov Posts: 2580 5/8/2016	I'm also split on this change. I think it makes a lot of sense in theory (and I looked forward to it when the idea was announced), but the implementation has problems. The stated motivation was that the old Connected property served two purposes: as currency ("Call in Favours...") and fame within a certain faction. So why not separate these purposes to be tracked by separate properties? Makes sense. For the "currency" aspect, I think that the new Favours work fine (though I'd like a few more ways to get some of those). It's definitely more dynamic than before, since Favours are opportunity based and there's a relatively low cap of 7, it encourages the player to actually use the Favours. You can't hoard them, so you might as well use them. So Favours are constantly changing hands. This is good. For the "fame" aspect, the Renown mechanic sadly does not deliver. There are no organic ways to increase Renown. Using the faction item to trade Favours to Renown feels very artificial and mechanical, and really takes me out of the game. It's similar to the high level quirk polishers - it's less a status of "I've interacted a lot with this faction - I'm a celebrity for them", and more a status of "I've spent actions and items and clicked this button here many many times". In short, while Favours feel like part of the FL world (i.e. relevant/useful to the character), Renown feels like a status in a game (i.e. relevant to the player). But the biggest problem for me is that splitting old Connected property into two usages had a gap. We've lost something when we moved from the old Connected property, because it served a third purpose (besides currency and fame): role play choices. If a player had a particularly high Connected: Hell this used to reflect a very specific character. It didn't just mean that the player can cash in on Hell Favours, and it didn't just mean that they blindly clicked on some button. It meant that whenever there was the opportunity, the player chose to cultivate a relationship with Hell. It had meaning. A big part of that meaning was that the Connection could drop. Again, this didn't just mean that a player cashed in on some Favours. No - it meant that the player worked against Hell's interested and so lost something. With the new system, this part of the gameplay -- this 3rd (and important) aspect of the Connected property -- was lost. Renown can't drop, so there's nothing to lose (from the narrative perspective). All that can drop is Favours, but those are meant now to be dynamic anyway - being collected and spent as currency. Where are the options to make a story choice which will damage your reputation? (I know, Renown represents both fame and notoriety, but that's the point - there's no indication of growing closer or moving away from a faction). The change to the conflict cards increases this problem. Conflict cards used to have real meaning of an actual conflict. Do I help the Devil or the Urchin? Should I save the Rubbery Man or the Tomb-Colonist? Whatever my choice, the Connected properties shows how I got close to one of them, but lost the respect of the other. Nowadays, conflict cards are just Favour sinks. They destroy Favours with one faction while giving you monetary rewards from the other. Again, our character's connection to a faction is reduced to currency only, with no gameplay meaning. My suggestions to at least partially fix the situation: 1. For Renown to make narrative sense, there needs to be an organic way for it to grow, by the player's gameplay choices, not just by sacrificing actions/items. 2. There needs to be a way to trade Favours from one faction to another. The conflict cards can do that (as they used to do). Alternatively, Favours can be clickable inventory items, allowing to trade one type of Favour for another type, in some cycle (like the .50 echo items). -- Want a sip of Hesperidean Cider? Send me a request in-game. Here's an_ocelot's guide how. (Most social actions are welcome. Please no requests to Loiter Suspiciously and no investigations of the Affluent Photographer)
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Professor Strix Posts: 616 5/8/2016	I tend to agree with dov. It was an early choice of mine to not grind connections or quirks unless needed, because when I first got to the game, I didn't see them as numbers that you get up to brag, but markers of what you've done in the game. Something to reflect the history of your choices. Grinding them would make them meaningless, because it doesn't reflect who you are or what you choose, but how much you decided to hit so or so button. That said, I totally get that some players take it as a personal challenge to raise connections and quirks as high as they can. I can be challenged by the pettiest things, so I can relate it to people that want a big number for bragging rights. I just don't care about doing this. The thing is, I think it's very challenging for Failbetter (I won't say impossible, but very challenging) to implement a system that appeases the narrative funcion of connections and quirks (keep track of your choices, reflect the morals and sympathies of your characters) and the mechanical function (be a reasonably difficult thing to grind to offer a challenge to players). What we can see right now is that they are moving to a system that is more mechanical, as many players started to care about that aspect, particularly end-game players that do it as a way to have something to do until new content is released. As someone that would love to use her list of quirks and connections as a way to tell a story ("see, my character got like that because of her personality - she has magnanimous, but some ruthless because of that one difficult choice, she is connected to church and has nothing of hell because she hates hell and sides with church every time those factions clash"), I think it's a little sad that I have to buy an item and spend favours to get renown, because it dettaches for the narrative and feels a little meh. My connections are relatively low because I don't grind them (I get them when the opportunity arises, or when a storylet gives you some rise on them), and each faction that turns to the renown system is a new faction that disappears from my connected tab. And even them, I can't muster the energy to go and grind them, because, again, what the point? To solve this, I think that it would be reasonable to get some renown at the end of making your name (and other special) stories, just like your quirks get a boost from them, and then letting more renown being farmable for people that wants to get out of the way to get it. This way, people that don't like to grind qualities won't be completely barred from even having them. Personally, I don't mind having no more than 5 renown from each faction, as long as I get them in the flow of the story instead of artificially raising it. You can't imagine the size of my grin when my steadfast, raised without grinding, was enough to give me a little boon in the Pentecost Predicament. It made all my choices that raised steadfast (costing me financial rewards, in many cases) worth it. That's everything I ask from quirks and renown: being markers that make your choices matter, instead of a cookie-clicker game. If this is happening, I don't really care if you use "connected", "renown" or whatever mechanics. -- The Inescapable Professor, London's Most Academic Detective. Open to consultation from Mondays to Fridays, above the Silver Binding bookshop, Veilgarden. Half the payment in advance, half after closing the case. No refunds. "THIS SATURDAY, in MAHOGANY HALL, delight your eyes with the DARING FEATS of the DAPPER ESCAPIST. Gape at his CHARM and WIT and his CLEVER TRICKS OF ILLUSIONISM. No mirrors used." --------- Social actions welcomed. Will take menaces if not currently grinding that one stat. Send them and cross your fingers. http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Professor%20Strix My alt loiters suspiciously if you want to: http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Derek%20Davis
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PJ Posts: 210 5/8/2016	I STRONGLY agree that Renown needs to increase organicly as you interact with the faction. Fame isn't something you buy, generally, and calling in favors to make yourself well-known makes little sense. -- https://www.fallenlondon.com/profile/Peter%20James
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Harlocke Posts: 506 5/8/2016	What's holding renown back is that it doesn't really do much yet, besides act as a gateway on already existing actions. The rubbery items are the first new addition, and a definite step in the right direction, but there could be a lot more. Eventually, I hope there will be lots of things that renown is useful for, beyond just getting a few prize items at the end of the rainbow. High renown could add useful opportunity cards to your deck, or unlock new storylets. Perhaps there could be stories where your renown in a faction is the relevant stat for an action, and favors can be used as second chances. I would especially like it if high renown unlocked new social actions specific to that faction, so you can roleplay your status in a group with other players. Perhaps high renown players could somehow grant favors to low renown players, as if you were taking a new recruit under your wing. -- I welcome social actions, and can visit your salon as an author. http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Harlocke
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Parelle Posts: 1084 5/8/2016	I do completely agree with the complaints that Favours should not be used in the item upgrade system unless at the high(est) levels. There are so many better ways to use a Favour having to save one for this purpose seems silly. I like using a Renown unlock idea better, though at a fairly low (under Renown 7) level would be best. -- Parelle, Lady Joseph Marlen. The Singular Librarian. A Midnighter, a Player of the Marvelous. pages from a dusty bookshop: a badly updated FL changelog \| Useful Guidance and Explanations
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thedeadlymoose Posts: 214 5/10/2016	I feel similarly to a lot of people in this thread, though just to be clear I really like the system overall, conceptually. I don't see any reason why Renown couldn't work, it just doesn't yet. A way it could work from a roleplaying perspective is if it unlocks a pair of branches each time it has a (non-grind-based) unlock, and the player gets to choose which one suits them: Fame or Notoriety (both unlocked with Renown X). They could even do the same thing, just with different text. (This would take more work to implement, but... so does every piece of writing in the game, and, well, this is a game about reading.) However, those unlocks would have be present, but.... few seem to appear in the game so far, and when they do, there's no roleplaying aspect, just a measurement of fame and explicitly not notoriety (see: Rubbery unlocks; at least the ones I know of so far -- pls correct me if I'm wrong!). The fact that conflict cards have no impact on Renown, and that there's no real way to raise Renown in general except by using the Special Item for each faction, is possibly the most disappointing aspect. It just doesn't make any kind of roleplaying sense. For example, why does hanging out in Flute Street not raise my Renown with the Rubbery Folk? Favours work a lot better. I really like most things about Favours at present. Favours make playing many cards drastically more fun and profitable, and the card deck is significantly improved with faction cards paying out in favours (and also being burnished quite a bit like the Rubbery card) and conflict cards actually being profitable as opposed to clutter. A minor-ish thing (which may be worse in the future) that requiring Favours for upconversions just makes it mechanically worse to play the game, since getting a bunch of Favours at once is extremely unreliable. Since so far this use of Favours is a primarily mechanical change and not a roleplaying one, this is doubly unfortunate -- if it served a roleplaying purpose, the mechanic wouldn't be so objectionable. As it stands, I wish it were improved as a mechanic. Conflict cards also make little sense now. This isn't really a complaint from a mechanical perspective, since holy shit the payout is huge. But the writing makes me think "this should be: gain 1-3 favours + small rewards from the side you, well, favour, lose 1-2 favours from the side you disfavour, and gain a tiny amount of renown from both sides". This isn't an actual suggestion, btw, it's just what I gather from the writing and the explanation of what favours and renown are supposed to mean. Instead, we ... gain no favours, and no Renown at all, but instead get a giant payout of items, sometimes a ridiculous amount for the small thing we did? And lose a massive amount of favours from what is in some case something affecting small numbers or literally one member of the faction? It may be a good system mechanically, but It's very confusing because it doesn't make intuitive sense from a player perspective. Hopefully this was coherent and maybe helpful and/or interesting! edited by thedeadlymoose on 5/10/2016 -- http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/profile/Eris~Jay http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/profile/Red~Rose
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Koenig Posts: 466 5/11/2016	Seconding the notion that it should be possible for renown to be earned from certain opportunity cards and carousals, albeit in very small increments. As it stands, have to use a connected item to increase renown is a mechanical bottle neck that arbitrarily locks progression behind it, while from a role playing point it effectively kills the vast majority of the connection related actions one takes throughout the Neath. -- Koenig: Extraordinary. Invisible. Shattering. Legendary.
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Gilphon Posts: 93 5/8/2016	Renown doesn't necessarily mean they like you- just that they're keenly aware of you. Or that was what I understood to be the idea, anyway- the specific example given was 'if you get caught trying to rob the Brass Embassy, the Devils aren't going to forget about you'. -- http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Gilphon
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Rupho Schartenhauer Posts: 787 5/8/2016	I was completely against it when it was first introduced - mainly because I completely misunderstood the proposed mechanics... Now I'm all for it! Yes, the Renown increase for spending 7 Favours could be a bit larger, but not much. I don't quite understand the people moaning about how hard it is to grind Renown; why would you do it in the first place? There will probably never be any gameplay-reason to increase more than your one or two favourite factions' Renown to 15 or more, and that's doable. If you want to max out more connections it's only because you want to collect rare items or just enjoy insane grinding; in each case you shouldn't complain about the difficulty.... -- Rupho Schartenhauer has killed a Master, well: most of it. Cortez the Killer has killed a Master, definitely. Deepdelver has become the progenitor of London's brightest star. It's... complicated. Dr. Kvirkvelia, gone NORTH on 23/12/1894.
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The Master Posts: 804 5/8/2016	The idea of them is amazing but it could have been better, renown could work really well if it wasn't just a trade favours for renown and you were able to get it with stories, that way it could be used in way more stories than it is now. Favours are an amazing system in my opinion! I love how choosing certain sides allows you to get cards that give you more favours, I love how having a gang allows you to get them faster...just...this is only here for criminals, it will be here for some other connections but most of the connections will only have their faction card and then the connected pet card, we need new cards, new items, new stories, but people will get angry when they get new cards and Failbetter doesn't want too many profitable cards too exist, and with the amount of connections in this game... -- http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Lolwolfking A very ruthless and daring doctor of the neath. No more gift exchanges, im getting too many and I can barely hold these. He has knowledge of a certain enigma, ask, you will get a clue.
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Mr Sables Posts: 597 5/8/2016	Kylestien wrote: I am curious what peoples thoughts on these qualities are. Personally, I'm in a bit of a bind. On the one hand, I get that they are supposed to be rare and profitable. On the other hand, some are really hard to get and that's becoming more evident as we go on. Rubbery Men for example, have but one way of getting Favors as far as I'm aware and that is their card. I'm in two minds, too . . . I adore the favours mechanic; I think they're just about right, offer fair rewards and cards, and - now the turncoat is fixed - the conflict cards are equally as fair and interesting, plus they require just the right amount of effort to get to seven (including occasional menaces). It's something I think adds to the game and could be quite fun in the long run. I still absolutely despise the renown, though. I find it virtually impossible to get; I only just learned you can trade favours for renown, but the amount of renown you get seems to be tiny for the favours you trade, so to get all the way up to 50 that way (assuming it'll get harder and harder as you go on) . . . it'll take forever. I'm also told some renown, like Tomb Colonists, is impossible to get up to 50, too, unless you have an insanely impossible high level of Dangerous (I can't remember the reasoning, but it's mentioned in a recent thread). Like, the fact it acts as a "reputation" is good; I do like it can't be decreased, as it makes sense - no matter what you do - people wouldn't just forget you like that . . . and favours being reduced instead makes more logical sense, as I say. Still, increasing it should be a bit easier and have more options to do so . . . knowing how impossible it is to get to 50 means I'm now having to grind insane amounts. I feel it unfair for some people to have to grind before renown to get renown . . . It's hard to explain so early in the morning, lol, but it feels like a flaw in the system. If you implement a change, it should work . . . sure, it should be a challenge to get to fifty, no one wants it to be easy, but it should feel possible . . . or just uncap it and let the options be a little easier, like for the connection quality, as I don't really see why renown needs a cap, to be honest, but maybe that's just me. I've already accepted I won't get much Urchins renown, so now I'm having to grind Society, Duchess and Bohemians (soon Bethnic/Somerset, once I get my Duchess to 200). It's . . . not fun. If I don't spend weeks grinding now, though, I'll lose out permanently on the change. (sorry for ranting) XD
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Gilphon Posts: 93 5/8/2016	I feel like some non-repeatable stories should give renown. Like, the Last Constable and Cheery man could give Constable or Criminal renown when you finish it. And, more generally, we could use the SotC model here- lots of options to raise it exist, but they have caps, and it gets very hard to raise once the levels start getting up there. As for trading favour between factions- that's a thing I definitely wouldn't object to, but it's probably better if it waits until a larger number of factions have been converted. Maybe all of them. -- http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Gilphon
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genesis Posts: 924 5/8/2016	Yep, I agree. It's very strange that I can sink every single Favour into a box of curiosities and yet my Renown does not increase. "What, 500 of us, tomb-colonists, have exchanged this esoteric knoweldge with you, you say? Nope, have never heard of you. You are entirely unknown to us. We certainly would never expect you to be a reliable provider of curiosities! Why would we? We have no idea who you are"... -- http://fallenlondon.com/Profile/mikey_thinkin Keeping track of incomplete content and loose ends in Fallen London
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fallingkitten Posts: 53 5/11/2016	Maybe you should gain a little amount of Renown when becoming Closest To a faction. -- The august abode of a young feline unwittingly affected by gravity 912 change points of dreams annihilated. Accepting any and all social actions, and always happy to help with menaces. __________________________________________________________________________________ Hiram McDaniels - A five-headed dragon, who cares? Currently not running for Neathy Mayor
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MrBurnside Posts: 188 5/9/2016	dov wrote: The change to the conflict cards increases this problem. Conflict cards used to have real meaning of an actual conflict. Do I help the Devil or the Urchin? Should I save the Rubbery Man or the Tomb-Colonist? Whatever my choice, the Connected properties shows how I got close to one of them, but lost the respect of the other. Nowadays, conflict cards are just Favour sinks. They destroy Favours with one faction while giving you monetary rewards from the other. Again, our character's connection to a faction is reduced to currency only, with no gameplay meaning. This is the locus of my problems with the way that Favors have been implemented, both from a mechanical and from a roleplaying perspective. Favors are extremely profitable if used in conflict cards, but only if you have seven. They can be used to boost renown, but work most efficiently (or, at high levels, exclusively) if you have seven. This creates weird hand-bloat issues. If all conflicts are undiscardable, then getting five of one type of favor can wreak your hand size. Tomb Colonists are one example. Going Gentle is now a Very Infrequent card. If you get seven favors, and want to cash them in, you may be waiting for a while (with Bandages and Dust filling your hand). If you get Going Gentle at five favors, you may be waiting for a while (with Going Gentle filling your hand). If you are building up Rubbery favors then that's another set of cards filling your hand. Each change to Favors lately has just exacerbated a basic and foreseeable mechanical mess. This didn't need to be a huge problem. Having conflict cards represent different levels of conflict could be one solution (as was done initially with Youthful High Spirits). Having Calling in Favors be (slightly) more profitable (as was done with Docks) could allow people more granular control of their conflicts and could make a big difference. Having favors be convertible on conflict cards would be be easy to implement and solve almost all of it. The current lack of granularity helps nothing. The roleplaying/narrative side is almost as odd. A Familiar Face by the School Railings is going to be really strange as a high-level conflict. I always really liked the combination of warmth and calculation that the Widow exemplifies. The text when you favor the Urchins was always a sign to me of her proportional, measured response. Having her cut all ties seems OOC. The Kaleidoscopic Church will be another odd one from a perspective of proportional response. A Contact in the Great Game will be one of the weirdest though. Why should France care whether I suborn a Prussian?
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Passionario Posts: 777 5/11/2016	I really dread the day when Connected: Masters is converted to the new system. -- Passionario: Profile, Story, Ending Passion: Profile, Appearance
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Ian Hart Posts: 437 5/11/2016	Passionario wrote: I really dread the day when Connected: Masters is converted to the new system. I can't wait for the Renown items! -- http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Antifinity
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th8827 Posts: 823 5/8/2016	The main problem that I have with Favor/Renown is that I need to keep all my favors to convert them to renown, so I can't cash them in for profit. Since every faction is getting special pets/items at certain renown points, I can't really afford not to save my Favors for renown if I want everything (which I do). I still like the system, though. Gives me another thing to work towards. -- http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/th8827 Gone NORTH. It's nice here.
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Optimatum Posts: 3666 5/9/2016	Grenem wrote: genesis wrote: Yep, I agree. It's very strange that I can sink every single Favour into a box of curiosities and yet my Renown does not increase. "What, 500 of us, tomb-colonists, have exchanged this esoteric knoweldge with you, you say? Nope, have never heard of you. You are entirely unknown to us. We certainly would never expect you to be a reliable provider of curiosities! Why would we? We have no idea who you are"... it is, until you think of renown as not being someone who deals with them, but a freind. once you think of favors as being your current relationship with them- favors owed and given- and renown being your long-term deeds as a freind. the conflict cards are- some of them, at least- going to break that role, but most of them will still leave you a freind. you might have betrayed one band of urchins, an zeroed all debt in the process, no matter which the gang, but the gangs still remember you as a freind because they aren't entirely the same entity. You might have inconvenienced the docksworkers, but not all of them, only a certain subset. Renown is you- instead of cashing in- actively seeking to partake in their society- whether holding funerals for the docks or partaking in one of the criminals races. It's the difference between a business partner and someone who joins you in the pub, spread across an entire society. That's not how the mechanic was explained, though. The original thread gave the example of unsuccessfully robbing the Brass Embassy - Renown would increase because Hell knew of you, even if they didn't like you. It was explicitly intended as different from Connections indicating friendship and positive feelings for the player. That's not how it's currently implemented, but hopefully that will change as factions continue to be converted. -- Optimatum, a ruthless and merciful gentleman. No plant battles, Affluent Photographer requests, or healing offers; all other social actions welcome. Want a sip of Cider? Just say hi! PM me for information enigmatic or Fated. Though the forum please, not FL itself.
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Hazel Posts: 69 5/9/2016	I find that the renown mechanic is a little like the quirks in that the first few levels are easy enough to reach, but then there's a weird gap that's disproportionately difficult to leap over, before you get to the high level actions. And I definitely agree that renoun should be earned through storylets as well. Why did I bother doing the Battle of wolfstack Docks if it didn't make me known at the docks? The same goes for criminal renown. I own an object that says a legendary story was passed around about my character's criminal exploits. That oughta translate to something. -- "I can walk in the Mirror-Marches at the edge of dreams as easily as I might promenade in Tyrant's Gardens." Skymaw & Belle Dame
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dov Posts: 2580 5/9/2016	Optimatum wrote: Grenem wrote: it is, until you think of renown as not being someone who deals with them, but a freind. That's not how the mechanic was explained, though. Exactly. What Grenem describes is how the old Connected quality was. It used to indicate how close you are to a certain faction, and it worked because of two things: It changed with every interaction we had with that faction throughout the game. Every action which had some impact on a faction mattered, because we'd get an immediate indication if our Connection with them (i.e. how close we are) has changed. It could drop as well as grow. This gave roleplay choices meaning. If I choose to hurt some faction, or to go against their interests, my Connection would drop, signalling that we've grown further apart. The current Renown quality was specifically designed to encapsulate both fame and notoriety. This was clearly explained in the introduction post and it's why Renown can only increase, never decrease. This is problematic from a roleplay perspective, because: There's no "cost" to going against a faction's interests. It's no longer indicated in a property of our character. The only way to increase Renown (apart from the first 5 levels) is to click a lot on the faction item. It never increases as a result of story choices. Therefore, it is meaningless from a narrative perspective. It's just a collector item. (with the new Rubbery items, Renown at least makes some mechanical difference - though still no narrative meaning to acquiring it!). I like the idea of making Renown more like quirks, in that there are many ways to increase/decrease, but they are capped. So the higher your level, less methods will work (and perhaps reserve using just the faction item to the very highest levels, since this is just for completionist players and doesn't work from the character's narrative perspective). -- Want a sip of Hesperidean Cider? Send me a request in-game. Here's an_ocelot's guide how. (Most social actions are welcome. Please no requests to Loiter Suspiciously and no investigations of the Affluent Photographer)
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Bertrand Leonidas Poole Posts: 335 5/8/2016	Favors are not good. They make upconversions a pain! It makes the room at the Royal Beth a pain to get even though I have tons of Mysteries of The Elder Continent.
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Kaigen Posts: 530 5/8/2016	I like the new system. I have Connected: The Church 92 and it means nothing because all of those gains were almost entirely incidental and I'm never going to need that much connection. Whereas any renown I get aside from conversions (and I may drop my Church connections down before they get changed) is there because I wanted it on my character. -- Just a simple doctor with a chess habit. Publisher of The Flit Dispatch. "One must remember that the impossible is, alas, always possible." -Jacques Derrida
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Harlocke Posts: 506 5/8/2016	dov wrote: My suggestions to at least partially fix the situation: 1. For Renown to make narrative sense, there needs to be an organic way for it to grow, by the player's gameplay choices, not just by sacrificing actions/items. 2. There needs to be a way to trade Favours from one faction to another. The conflict cards can do that (as they used to do). Alternatively, Favours can be clickable inventory items, allowing to trade one type of Favour for another type, in some cycle (like the .50 echo items). On conflict cards when you have favors with both groups, perhaps there could be a new option to spend all of the favors from both factions to increase renown with just one of them, and forgo any material rewards in the process. For example, if you have 5 rubbery and 5 tomb colonist favors, there could be a way to spend all 10 favors to increase rubbery renown. -- I welcome social actions, and can visit your salon as an author. http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Harlocke
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absimiliard Posts: 759 5/8/2016	I think Dov's idea sounds excellent as well. The idea of Renown growing from your actions like Connected did is grand, I'd favor removing it from the faction item as well. I also like the idea of using conflict cards to trade favors between factions. Then faction cards could give you the actual payoff stories where you convert various levels of favors to varying rewards. No idea what the items should be good for at that point though, so there's still some stuff to figure out. -- "Because, Parabola!" -- the Curious Captain Eating nightmares from friends -- and I'm easy to befriend. Absimiliard: the Black Rose of Wolfstack Docks
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Kaigen Posts: 530 5/8/2016	PJ wrote: I STRONGLY agree that Renown needs to increase organicly as you interact with the faction. Fame isn't something you buy, generally, and calling in favors to make yourself well-known makes little sense. That's true, although I think agreeing to forget favours would make sense as a way to increase your fame. Unfortunately, that's not how the renown actions are currently characterized. I'm of two minds on the matter of "organic" renown increases. On the one hand, it would aid roleplay by giving the player more actions that they can point to to justify their renown score. On the other hand, it could easily lead to renown scores with certain factions being high for a player merely because they incidentally did things one faction liked. If my character dislikes and is critical of both the Church and Hell, I don't want to have to explain away a Renown: The Church 20 score as "Apparently they liked X,Y, and Z things I did, and there's no way to tell the hypocrites to sod off." -- Just a simple doctor with a chess habit. Publisher of The Flit Dispatch. "One must remember that the impossible is, alas, always possible." -Jacques Derrida
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Catherine Raymond Posts: 2518 5/8/2016	Gilphon wrote: Renown doesn't necessarily mean they like you- just that they're keenly aware of you. Or that was what I understood to be the idea, anyway- the specific example given was 'if you get caught trying to rob the Brass Embassy, the Devils aren't going to forget about you'. Actually, if it's based in part upon the old "Connected" stat I think a high Renown does mean that they like you--or at least that they trust you quite a bit. -- Cathy Raymond http://fallenlondon.com/Profile/cathyr19355 Catherine Raymond aka Mrs. Rykar Malkus http://fallenlondon.com/Profile/Catherine%20Raymond (Gone NORTH)
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Harlocke Posts: 506 5/8/2016	Optimatum wrote: Harlocke wrote: Eventually, I hope there will be lots of things that renown is useful for, beyond just getting a few prize items at the end of the rainbow. High renown could add useful opportunity cards to your deck, or unlock new storylets. Those two do already happen, though not enough to be particularly interesting. Having Renown: Criminals 20 unlocks an infrequent but profitable card on which to spend Criminal Favours, and Renown: Docks 15 unlocks the previously-existing (and definitely not profitable) option to sponsor a zee-voyage. They aren't particularly interesting implementations, but it's precedent. Those other ideas you mentioned sound pretty cool though. Ah, that's neat. I didn't know about those. What I hope though, is for more involved storylines beyond just a new way of getting some profit. The real reward in Fallen London is story, not wealth. It would be nice if reaching Criminal Renown 20 let you experience a meaty story about your rise in the underworld, meet new characters, learn interesting lore, make choices with permanent consequences, not just press a button and get some diamonds. -- I welcome social actions, and can visit your salon as an author. http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Harlocke
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PJ Posts: 210 5/8/2016	It was extremely frustrating to have 45 Antique Mysteries, 50 Mysteries of the Elder Continent, and no way to use those to buy my place at the Royal Beth. I wound up giving up and proceeding with my next story goal instead of waiting any longer for a card. My next task was to visit the King with a Hundred Hearts in Polythreme. I was not happy when I understood the mechanics of Polythreme and realized what a huge advantage an extra card slot would provide. -- https://www.fallenlondon.com/profile/Peter%20James
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Koenig Posts: 466 5/9/2016	I really like the way favors work, however I truly despise how I have to trade favors through connected items to gain renown. It is a huge bottleneck on the mechanical side of things, and from a role playing stand point it effectively kills the way I interact with different groups. -- Koenig: Extraordinary. Invisible. Shattering. Legendary.
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Estelle Knoht Posts: 1751 5/9/2016	dov wrote: The current Renown quality was specifically designed to encapsulate both fame and notoriety. This was clearly explained in the introduction post and it's why Renown can only increase, never decrease. This is problematic from a roleplay perspective, because: There's no "cost" to going against a faction's interests. It's no longer indicated in a property of our character. The only way to increase Renown (apart from the first 5 levels) is to click a lot on the faction item. It never increases as a result of story choices. Therefore, it is meaningless from a narrative perspective. It's just a collector item. (with the new Rubbery items, Renown at least makes some mechanical difference - though still no narrative meaning to acquiring it!). They might have started out saying that "Renown is a neutral and that it could meant fame or infamy," but it is barely so for Criminals since they are more about capabilities and being out for yourself. So you can technically justify any backstabbing you do. For Docks and everything that came after, it doesn't remotely make sense to have your Renown be the bad kind of notoriety because Renown are gained by doing significant favours to them - save a Rubbery tenement, help Dockers get out of a bind with Mr Fires, rescue Tomb-Colonist from a mausoleum - and in return unlocks even more situation where they do nice things for you. Rubbery instruments, dockers labour. If Renown is really independent of how the factions feel about you and is purely about how well they know you, people would have gained like 25 Docks and Rubbery just for supporting Neddy Men and murdering Rubberies left and right for Ambers and in these case it still doesn't make sense for the Rubberies to gift secret fancy instruments. I guess you can really squint and claim that you are just instilling terror into people and loudly declare you didn't help them? -- Estelle Knoht, a juvenile, unreliable and respectable lady. I currently do not accept any catbox, cider, suppers, calling cards or proteges.
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suinicide Posts: 2409 5/12/2016	Well, yes I misunderstood that. But the +2,-3 was for the closest to. Since it takes a long time to work up to 38 and actually be able to abuse it, I doubt the abuse would be too much. But the idea for the mark of credit is something I like more, if theres a place for all the factions. edited by suinicide on 5/12/2016 edited by suinicide on 5/12/2016 -- http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/profile/sunnytime A gentleman seeking the liberation of knowledge, with a penchant for violence. RIP suinicide, stuck in a well. Still has it under control.
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Grenem Posts: 2067 5/12/2016	suinicide wrote: At that point I think it's getting a little too close to favours, and there wouldn't be much point in separating the two. Yes, exactly. Which is why I like the split the way it is- and i don't think it's getting too close to favors- the best way to gain renown is still actually using the items, chances to interact with their society as payment for those favors- but you gain a little by profiting in their favor, and lose a little by favoring others. The point is that renown shouldn't be untouchable outside of the relics, not that the relics shouldn't be optimal for min-maxing. A tiny number of points gained or lost seems like the best way to do it. It would take a year to reach renown 40 at 1 favor a day, and at two points per seven the result would be much the same, but it wouldn't be untouchable- just hard to drive up or down without other factors. edited by Grenem on 5/12/2016 -- Married!:http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/takuza I will accept all social actions that do not consume free evenings- and i will provide patronage to anyone who requests it, though it will be split between all requesters. On psudeo-hiatus. Will be inactive and active and fluctuate without warning. Grinding Favors without cards: http://community.failbettergames.com/topic22266-storylet-favors-grinding.aspx
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suinicide Posts: 2409 5/12/2016	I agree that they shouldn't be untouchable, but causing the conflict cards to change them would make them too changeable. (Maybe it could be added to a few, like replace the turncoat from the constables/criminals. But I don't agree with all of them) Renown strikes me as something that should stay relatively stable, and I think the cards that do effect renown should have a cap much lower than 50. Also I agree with an earlier comment that "Closest to" Should increase renown, and would like to add that changing your closest could decrease it. Edit: Sorry, I misread you as saying it should change by levels. A point or two sounds a lot better. And tried to edit this to make it all clearer. edited by suinicide on 5/12/2016 -- http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/profile/sunnytime A gentleman seeking the liberation of knowledge, with a penchant for violence. RIP suinicide, stuck in a well. Still has it under control.
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Grenem Posts: 2067 5/12/2016	suinicide wrote: I agree that they shouldn't be untouchable, but causing the conflict cards to change them would make them too changeable. (Maybe it could be added to a few, like replace the turncoat from the constables/criminals. But I don't agree with all of them) Renown strikes me as something that should stay relatively stable, and I think the cards that do effect renown should have a cap much lower than 50. Also I agree with an earlier comment that "Closest to" Should increase renown, and would like to add that changing your closest could decrease it. Edit: Sorry, I misread you as saying it should change by levels. A point or two sounds a lot better. And tried to edit this to make it all clearer. edited by suinicide on 5/12/2016 Conflict cards are going against their interests, but most of them aren't a big deal, so it should be a petty change- serious issues might reduce/increase by more, but none enough to actually compete with turning in your favors- just enough to grant renown by repeated favoring. If closest to changes renown, it shouldn't zero it, instead lowering it with a cap akin to the accidental one they had on feeding a vicar to your plant, where it won't be lowered below five. -- Married!:http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/takuza I will accept all social actions that do not consume free evenings- and i will provide patronage to anyone who requests it, though it will be split between all requesters. On psudeo-hiatus. Will be inactive and active and fluctuate without warning. Grinding Favors without cards: http://community.failbettergames.com/topic22266-storylet-favors-grinding.aspx
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Grenem Posts: 2067 5/12/2016	suinicide wrote: Yeah, thats what I meant when I was talking about "closest to". My bad. (I was thinking +2, -3 in levels) That seems kinda abusable- hold onto it, use it to jump from 38 to 40, then claim the ultimate reward at renown 40 and dive back to 37, and repeat with each faction as needed. I'd rather that they buffed the faction-specific parts of counting the days, with no renown boost directly from claiming it- though a drop from abandoning it- as generally speaking, that's how they worked when you choose your initial factions. That both turning in marks of credit to your faction and whatever the faction-card option was would boost renown and gain favors both for your faction, while gaining favors from the adjacent factions. You could go so far as to make it objectively superior to the standard option- one point renown, and one favor, and the "counting the days". Not sure that's a good idea, but it's an option. The renown drop for swapping closest to sounds good, though. one option for preventing abuse is having two otherwise identical storylets- one at renown, say, eight+, one before that. The one at below eight would set renown to five, while the one at eight would lower it by three levels. -- Married!:http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/takuza I will accept all social actions that do not consume free evenings- and i will provide patronage to anyone who requests it, though it will be split between all requesters. On psudeo-hiatus. Will be inactive and active and fluctuate without warning. Grinding Favors without cards: http://community.failbettergames.com/topic22266-storylet-favors-grinding.aspx
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Optimatum Posts: 3666 5/10/2016	If Renown is implemented into the story side of things, which I really hope happens, I think there should be rare ways to lower it. Cutting ties with a group you're Closest To, for example - they might be angry in the short term but for some situations at least they'd move on and forget about you. Pursuing the Great Game and taking penance at Saint Joshua's shrine might have you forget about details of the Game, or other agents might forget things about you. Conflict cards could also change Renown levels, with the neglected faction raising or lowering Renown based on the story context. -- Optimatum, a ruthless and merciful gentleman. No plant battles, Affluent Photographer requests, or healing offers; all other social actions welcome. Want a sip of Cider? Just say hi! PM me for information enigmatic or Fated. Though the forum please, not FL itself.
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Grenem Posts: 2067 5/9/2016	Estelle Knoht wrote: dov wrote: The current Renown quality was specifically designed to encapsulate both fame and notoriety. This was clearly explained in the introduction post and it's why Renown can only increase, never decrease. This is problematic from a roleplay perspective, because: There's no "cost" to going against a faction's interests. It's no longer indicated in a property of our character. The only way to increase Renown (apart from the first 5 levels) is to click a lot on the faction item. It never increases as a result of story choices. Therefore, it is meaningless from a narrative perspective. It's just a collector item. (with the new Rubbery items, Renown at least makes some mechanical difference - though still no narrative meaning to acquiring it!). They might have started out saying that "Renown is a neutral and that it could meant fame or infamy," but it is barely so for Criminals since they are more about capabilities and being out for yourself. So you can technically justify any backstabbing you do. For Docks and everything that came after, it doesn't remotely make sense to have your Renown be the bad kind of notoriety because Renown are gained by doing significant favours to them - save a Rubbery tenement, help Dockers get out of a bind with Mr Fires, rescue Tomb-Colonist from a mausoleum - and in return unlocks even more situation where they do nice things for you. Rubbery instruments, dockers labour. If Renown is really independent of how the factions feel about you and is purely about how well they know you, people would have gained like 25 Docks and Rubbery just for supporting Neddy Men and murdering Rubberies left and right for Ambers and in these case it still doesn't make sense for the Rubberies to gift secret fancy instruments. I guess you can really squint and claim that you are just instilling terror into people and loudly declare you didn't help them? Renown is, in my opinion, how associated you are with their society. It's ultimately neutral in that you can have renown without actually helping them much, but renown is more being that guy in the pub for the docks, for instance. They recognize you. Maybe you're not going to put them first, but they recognize you- you're a part of their society in places most outsiders aren't. You might not always put them first, but you've been spending time with them, and have done some people a good turn. You might not be someone they can count on, but you've done good things for them in the past. In some factions this makes more sense- criminals are not properly united, so having renown but betraying them makes perfect sense- they aren't properly united anyways. Docks have their own internal feuds too. Rubberies and tomb colonists, though. Well, the tomb colonist betrayals are choosing to save someone else in a life-or-death situation or something easy to sweep under the rug, and the rubberies might not be very good at communication. Still, the latter seems dubious, especially since one option is an unprovoked murder. -- Married!:http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/takuza I will accept all social actions that do not consume free evenings- and i will provide patronage to anyone who requests it, though it will be split between all requesters. On psudeo-hiatus. Will be inactive and active and fluctuate without warning. Grinding Favors without cards: http://community.failbettergames.com/topic22266-storylet-favors-grinding.aspx
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Optimatum Posts: 3666 5/8/2016	Gilphon wrote: (If you're not a POSI yet, I personally can't recommend going for four-card lodgings at all, but Carnelian Coast is probably the most reasonable option) I'm pretty sure the Carnelian Coast requires becoming a PoSI and having a ship, among things. -- Optimatum, a ruthless and merciful gentleman. No plant battles, Affluent Photographer requests, or healing offers; all other social actions welcome. Want a sip of Cider? Just say hi! PM me for information enigmatic or Fated. Though the forum please, not FL itself.
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Grenem Posts: 2067 5/11/2016	fallingkitten wrote: Maybe you should gain a little amount of Renown when becoming Closest To a faction. I'd think that'd be too short-term: A one--time offer. not worth the cost of implementing,not the mention it's internal. If they were going to do something like that, i'd do it for the faction-related secrets and spending option- make it give you one point renown per time you picked it. I'd also do the same for favoring them on a faction conflict- 2 points on favoring and one point loss on betrayal- and maybe for cashing in, too. -- Married!:http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/takuza I will accept all social actions that do not consume free evenings- and i will provide patronage to anyone who requests it, though it will be split between all requesters. On psudeo-hiatus. Will be inactive and active and fluctuate without warning. Grinding Favors without cards: http://community.failbettergames.com/topic22266-storylet-favors-grinding.aspx
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suinicide Posts: 2409 5/11/2016	At that point I think it's getting a little too close to favours, and there wouldn't be much point in separating the two. -- http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/profile/sunnytime A gentleman seeking the liberation of knowledge, with a penchant for violence. RIP suinicide, stuck in a well. Still has it under control.
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dov Posts: 2580 5/8/2016	If you're a POSI, you can spend 5 actions to get Casing with no Shadowy check. -- Want a sip of Hesperidean Cider? Send me a request in-game. Here's an_ocelot's guide how. (Most social actions are welcome. Please no requests to Loiter Suspiciously and no investigations of the Affluent Photographer)
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Meradine Heidenreich Posts: 468 5/9/2016	Bertrand Leonidas Poole wrote: I don't like all these overly shadowy people recommending stealing 12.50e items in the Flit all the time. Not all of us like the horrid potential of spending three actions at once to get casing and then failing at it and getting suspicion to boot, three actions down the drain. Grindy AND maddening for people who don't have at least 125+ shadowy. As someone else pointed out recently, there are 1-action casing actions in the Flit and elsewhere that are transferable... -- https://www.fallenlondon.com/profile/Meradine%20Heidenreich The Starveling kit Gobbled up the bit of cheese on my tray .. "O Weh!" No plant battles, please.
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Optimatum Posts: 3666 5/8/2016	Harlocke wrote: Eventually, I hope there will be lots of things that renown is useful for, beyond just getting a few prize items at the end of the rainbow. High renown could add useful opportunity cards to your deck, or unlock new storylets. Those two do already happen, though not enough to be particularly interesting. Having Renown: Criminals 20 unlocks an infrequent but profitable card on which to spend Criminal Favours, and Renown: Docks 15 unlocks the previously-existing (and definitely not profitable) option to sponsor a zee-voyage. They aren't particularly interesting implementations, but it's precedent. Those other ideas you mentioned sound pretty cool though. -- Optimatum, a ruthless and merciful gentleman. No plant battles, Affluent Photographer requests, or healing offers; all other social actions welcome. Want a sip of Cider? Just say hi! PM me for information enigmatic or Fated. Though the forum please, not FL itself.
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Catherine Raymond Posts: 2518 5/8/2016	Kylestien wrote: I am curious what peoples thoughts on these qualities are. Personally, I'm in a bit of a bind. On the one hand, I get that they are supposed to be rare and profitable. On the other hand, some are really hard to get and that's becoming more evident as we go on. Rubbery Men for example, have but one way of getting Favors as far as I'm aware and that is their card. If you have access to Flute Street, you can get one Rubbery Favour for each time you go through the Rubbery actions carousel down there. It's more reliable than the card though you need lots of actions to get to it. -- Cathy Raymond http://fallenlondon.com/Profile/cathyr19355 Catherine Raymond aka Mrs. Rykar Malkus http://fallenlondon.com/Profile/Catherine%20Raymond (Gone NORTH)
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Skinnyman Posts: 2133 5/8/2016	Pretty new here so I won't have the biggest advantages of the conversion, but I'm trying. Otherwise, I find it very interesting both the part of Renown and the Favors. Hard to grind, takes a while, but, in my opinion, it should be this way. RobinMask, I did the math regarding the amount of Favors required if one starts fresh from the Carnival which is level 5. It will take 21 Favors to get to level 8, another 42 to get to level 15 and 238 (347) to get to level 40 and 147 more (217) to get to level 40 which is a total of 448 Favors. It is a lot, but we must take into account that people which ended up with Renown 50 invested a lot of work in it and probably some ended up loosing because 50 is max level. Here's a good/insane example: Nathan Attford-Fenwick. The fact that level 50 is almost impossible is due to the minimum level requirements to be able to convert Favors to Renown, but my guess is that those high level won't be useful/required pretty soon. Probably will get a new skill level gap! So I don't find it fair if some got Renown level 50 and some got nothing. I just hope they won't change all of the connections (Academic and Masters, for example) before they start polishing the ones already implemented. This way will offer people more chances to increase their Connection levels, but also offer a lovely experience to everyone. -- ESs items and quality requirements sheet. Please check if there are errors or if something is missing Achievement list if you're feeling bored! I am accepting Plant battles, Neath's Mysteries card, Starveling Cats and boxed cats. No suppers, no second chances gain and no need to cure my menaces!
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What are everyone's thoughts on Favors and Renown?