Grenem
Posts: 2067
5/9/2016
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Estelle Knoht wrote:
dov wrote:
The current Renown quality was specifically designed to encapsulate both fame and notoriety. This was clearly explained in the introduction post and it's why Renown can only increase, never decrease. This is problematic from a roleplay perspective, because:
- There's no "cost" to going against a faction's interests. It's no longer indicated in a property of our character.
- The only way to increase Renown (apart from the first 5 levels) is to click a lot on the faction item. It never increases as a result of story choices. Therefore, it is meaningless from a narrative perspective. It's just a collector item. (with the new Rubbery items, Renown at least makes some mechanical difference - though still no narrative meaning to acquiring it!).
They might have started out saying that "Renown is a neutral and that it could meant fame or infamy," but it is barely so for Criminals since they are more about capabilities and being out for yourself. So you can technically justify any backstabbing you do.
For Docks and everything that came after, it doesn't remotely make sense to have your Renown be the bad kind of notoriety because Renown are gained by doing significant favours to them - save a Rubbery tenement, help Dockers get out of a bind with Mr Fires, rescue Tomb-Colonist from a mausoleum - and in return unlocks even more situation where they do nice things for you. Rubbery instruments, dockers labour.
If Renown is really independent of how the factions feel about you and is purely about how well they know you, people would have gained like 25 Docks and Rubbery just for supporting Neddy Men and murdering Rubberies left and right for Ambers and in these case it still doesn't make sense for the Rubberies to gift secret fancy instruments.
I guess you can really squint and claim that you are just instilling terror into people and loudly declare you didn't help them?
Renown is, in my opinion, how associated you are with their society. It's ultimately neutral in that you can have renown without actually helping them much, but renown is more being that guy in the pub for the docks, for instance. They recognize you. Maybe you're not going to put them first, but they recognize you- you're a part of their society in places most outsiders aren't. You might not always put them first, but you've been spending time with them, and have done some people a good turn. You might not be someone they can count on, but you've done good things for them in the past.
In some factions this makes more sense- criminals are not properly united, so having renown but betraying them makes perfect sense- they aren't properly united anyways. Docks have their own internal feuds too. Rubberies and tomb colonists, though. Well, the tomb colonist betrayals are choosing to save someone else in a life-or-death situation or something easy to sweep under the rug, and the rubberies might not be very good at communication. Still, the latter seems dubious, especially since one option is an unprovoked murder.
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Married!:http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/takuza
I will accept all social actions that do not consume free evenings- and i will provide patronage to anyone who requests it, though it will be split between all requesters.
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Grinding Favors without cards: http://community.failbettergames.com/topic22266-storylet-favors-grinding.aspx
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MrBurnside
Posts: 188
5/9/2016
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dov wrote:
The change to the conflict cards increases this problem. Conflict cards used to have real meaning of an actual conflict. Do I help the Devil or the Urchin? Should I save the Rubbery Man or the Tomb-Colonist? Whatever my choice, the Connected properties shows how I got close to one of them, but lost the respect of the other. Nowadays, conflict cards are just Favour sinks. They destroy Favours with one faction while giving you monetary rewards from the other. Again, our character's connection to a faction is reduced to currency only, with no gameplay meaning.
This is the locus of my problems with the way that Favors have been implemented, both from a mechanical and from a roleplaying perspective. Favors are extremely profitable if used in conflict cards, but only if you have seven. They can be used to boost renown, but work most efficiently (or, at high levels, exclusively) if you have seven. This creates weird hand-bloat issues. If all conflicts are undiscardable, then getting five of one type of favor can wreak your hand size.
Tomb Colonists are one example. Going Gentle is now a Very Infrequent card. If you get seven favors, and want to cash them in, you may be waiting for a while (with Bandages and Dust filling your hand). If you get Going Gentle at five favors, you may be waiting for a while (with Going Gentle filling your hand). If you are building up Rubbery favors then that's another set of cards filling your hand.
Each change to Favors lately has just exacerbated a basic and foreseeable mechanical mess.
This didn't need to be a huge problem. Having conflict cards represent different levels of conflict could be one solution (as was done initially with Youthful High Spirits). Having Calling in Favors be (slightly) more profitable (as was done with Docks) could allow people more granular control of their conflicts and could make a big difference. Having favors be convertible on conflict cards would be be easy to implement and solve almost all of it. The current lack of granularity helps nothing.
The roleplaying/narrative side is almost as odd. A Familiar Face by the School Railings is going to be really strange as a high-level conflict. I always really liked the combination of warmth and calculation that the Widow exemplifies. The text when you favor the Urchins was always a sign to me of her proportional, measured response. Having her cut all ties seems OOC. The Kaleidoscopic Church will be another odd one from a perspective of proportional response.
A Contact in the Great Game will be one of the weirdest though. Why should France care whether I suborn a Prussian?
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Optimatum
Posts: 3666
5/10/2016
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If Renown is implemented into the story side of things, which I really hope happens, I think there should be rare ways to lower it. Cutting ties with a group you're Closest To, for example - they might be angry in the short term but for some situations at least they'd move on and forget about you. Pursuing the Great Game and taking penance at Saint Joshua's shrine might have you forget about details of the Game, or other agents might forget things about you. Conflict cards could also change Renown levels, with the neglected faction raising or lowering Renown based on the story context.
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Optimatum, a ruthless and merciful gentleman. No plant battles, Affluent Photographer requests, or healing offers; all other social actions welcome.
 Want a sip of Cider? Just say hi!
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thedeadlymoose
Posts: 214
5/10/2016
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I feel similarly to a lot of people in this thread, though just to be clear I really like the system overall, conceptually.
I don't see any reason why Renown couldn't work, it just doesn't yet. A way it could work from a roleplaying perspective is if it unlocks a pair of branches each time it has a (non-grind-based) unlock, and the player gets to choose which one suits them: Fame or Notoriety (both unlocked with Renown X). They could even do the same thing, just with different text. (This would take more work to implement, but... so does every piece of writing in the game, and, well, this is a game about reading.)
However, those unlocks would have be present, but.... few seem to appear in the game so far, and when they do, there's no roleplaying aspect, just a measurement of fame and explicitly not notoriety (see: Rubbery unlocks; at least the ones I know of so far -- pls correct me if I'm wrong!).
The fact that conflict cards have no impact on Renown, and that there's no real way to raise Renown in general except by using the Special Item for each faction, is possibly the most disappointing aspect. It just doesn't make any kind of roleplaying sense. For example, why does hanging out in Flute Street not raise my Renown with the Rubbery Folk?
Favours work a lot better. I really like most things about Favours at present.
Favours make playing many cards drastically more fun and profitable, and the card deck is significantly improved with faction cards paying out in favours (and also being burnished quite a bit like the Rubbery card) and conflict cards actually being profitable as opposed to clutter.
A minor-ish thing (which may be worse in the future) that requiring Favours for upconversions just makes it mechanically worse to play the game, since getting a bunch of Favours at once is extremely unreliable. Since so far this use of Favours is a primarily mechanical change and not a roleplaying one, this is doubly unfortunate -- if it served a roleplaying purpose, the mechanic wouldn't be so objectionable. As it stands, I wish it were improved as a mechanic.
Conflict cards also make little sense now. This isn't really a complaint from a mechanical perspective, since holy shit the payout is huge.
But the writing makes me think "this should be: gain 1-3 favours + small rewards from the side you, well, favour, lose 1-2 favours from the side you disfavour, and gain a tiny amount of renown from both sides". This isn't an actual suggestion, btw, it's just what I gather from the writing and the explanation of what favours and renown are supposed to mean.
Instead, we ... gain no favours, and no Renown at all, but instead get a giant payout of items, sometimes a ridiculous amount for the small thing we did? And lose a massive amount of favours from what is in some case something affecting small numbers or literally one member of the faction? It may be a good system mechanically, but It's very confusing because it doesn't make intuitive sense from a player perspective.
Hopefully this was coherent and maybe helpful and/or interesting! 
edited by thedeadlymoose on 5/10/2016
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Koenig
Posts: 466
5/11/2016
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Seconding the notion that it should be possible for renown to be earned from certain opportunity cards and carousals, albeit in very small increments. As it stands, have to use a connected item to increase renown is a mechanical bottle neck that arbitrarily locks progression behind it, while from a role playing point it effectively kills the vast majority of the connection related actions one takes throughout the Neath.
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Koenig: Extraordinary. Invisible. Shattering. Legendary.
   
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fallingkitten
Posts: 53
5/11/2016
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Maybe you should gain a little amount of Renown when becoming Closest To a faction.
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912 change points of dreams annihilated.
Accepting any and all social actions, and always happy to help with menaces.
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Passionario
Posts: 777
5/11/2016
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I really dread the day when Connected: Masters is converted to the new system.
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Passionario: Profile, Story, Ending
Passion: Profile, Appearance
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Ian Hart
Posts: 437
5/11/2016
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Passionario wrote:
I really dread the day when Connected: Masters is converted to the new system.
I can't wait for the Renown items!
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http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Antifinity
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Grenem
Posts: 2067
5/11/2016
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fallingkitten wrote:
Maybe you should gain a little amount of Renown when becoming Closest To a faction.
I'd think that'd be too short-term: A one--time offer. not worth the cost of implementing,not the mention it's internal. If they were going to do something like that, i'd do it for the faction-related secrets and spending option- make it give you one point renown per time you picked it.
I'd also do the same for favoring them on a faction conflict- 2 points on favoring and one point loss on betrayal- and maybe for cashing in, too.
--
Married!:http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/takuza
I will accept all social actions that do not consume free evenings- and i will provide patronage to anyone who requests it, though it will be split between all requesters.
On psudeo-hiatus. Will be inactive and active and fluctuate without warning.
Grinding Favors without cards: http://community.failbettergames.com/topic22266-storylet-favors-grinding.aspx
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suinicide
Posts: 2409
5/11/2016
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At that point I think it's getting a little too close to favours, and there wouldn't be much point in separating the two.
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A gentleman seeking the liberation of knowledge, with a penchant for violence.
RIP suinicide, stuck in a well. Still has it under control.
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Grenem
Posts: 2067
5/12/2016
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suinicide wrote:
At that point I think it's getting a little too close to favours, and there wouldn't be much point in separating the two.
Yes, exactly. Which is why I like the split the way it is- and i don't think it's getting too close to favors- the best way to gain renown is still actually using the items, chances to interact with their society as payment for those favors- but you gain a little by profiting in their favor, and lose a little by favoring others. The point is that renown shouldn't be untouchable outside of the relics, not that the relics shouldn't be optimal for min-maxing.
A tiny number of points gained or lost seems like the best way to do it. It would take a year to reach renown 40 at 1 favor a day, and at two points per seven the result would be much the same, but it wouldn't be untouchable- just hard to drive up or down without other factors.
edited by Grenem on 5/12/2016
--
Married!:http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/takuza
I will accept all social actions that do not consume free evenings- and i will provide patronage to anyone who requests it, though it will be split between all requesters.
On psudeo-hiatus. Will be inactive and active and fluctuate without warning.
Grinding Favors without cards: http://community.failbettergames.com/topic22266-storylet-favors-grinding.aspx
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suinicide
Posts: 2409
5/12/2016
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I agree that they shouldn't be untouchable, but causing the conflict cards to change them would make them too changeable. (Maybe it could be added to a few, like replace the turncoat from the constables/criminals. But I don't agree with all of them)
Renown strikes me as something that should stay relatively stable, and I think the cards that do effect renown should have a cap much lower than 50.
Also I agree with an earlier comment that "Closest to" Should increase renown, and would like to add that changing your closest could decrease it.
Edit: Sorry, I misread you as saying it should change by levels. A point or two sounds a lot better. And tried to edit this to make it all clearer.
edited by suinicide on 5/12/2016
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http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/profile/sunnytime
A gentleman seeking the liberation of knowledge, with a penchant for violence.
RIP suinicide, stuck in a well. Still has it under control.
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Grenem
Posts: 2067
5/12/2016
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suinicide wrote:
I agree that they shouldn't be untouchable, but causing the conflict cards to change them would make them too changeable. (Maybe it could be added to a few, like replace the turncoat from the constables/criminals. But I don't agree with all of them)
Renown strikes me as something that should stay relatively stable, and I think the cards that do effect renown should have a cap much lower than 50.
Also I agree with an earlier comment that "Closest to" Should increase renown, and would like to add that changing your closest could decrease it.
Edit: Sorry, I misread you as saying it should change by levels. A point or two sounds a lot better. And tried to edit this to make it all clearer.
edited by suinicide on 5/12/2016
Conflict cards are going against their interests, but most of them aren't a big deal, so it should be a petty change- serious issues might reduce/increase by more, but none enough to actually compete with turning in your favors- just enough to grant renown by repeated favoring.
If closest to changes renown, it shouldn't zero it, instead lowering it with a cap akin to the accidental one they had on feeding a vicar to your plant, where it won't be lowered below five.
--
Married!:http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/takuza
I will accept all social actions that do not consume free evenings- and i will provide patronage to anyone who requests it, though it will be split between all requesters.
On psudeo-hiatus. Will be inactive and active and fluctuate without warning.
Grinding Favors without cards: http://community.failbettergames.com/topic22266-storylet-favors-grinding.aspx
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suinicide
Posts: 2409
5/12/2016
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Yeah, thats what I meant when I was talking about "closest to". My bad. (I was thinking +2, -3 in levels)
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http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/profile/sunnytime
A gentleman seeking the liberation of knowledge, with a penchant for violence.
RIP suinicide, stuck in a well. Still has it under control.
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Grenem
Posts: 2067
5/12/2016
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suinicide wrote:
Yeah, thats what I meant when I was talking about "closest to". My bad. (I was thinking +2, -3 in levels)
That seems kinda abusable- hold onto it, use it to jump from 38 to 40, then claim the ultimate reward at renown 40 and dive back to 37, and repeat with each faction as needed. I'd rather that they buffed the faction-specific parts of counting the days, with no renown boost directly from claiming it- though a drop from abandoning it- as generally speaking, that's how they worked when you choose your initial factions. That both turning in marks of credit to your faction and whatever the faction-card option was would boost renown and gain favors both for your faction, while gaining favors from the adjacent factions.
You could go so far as to make it objectively superior to the standard option- one point renown, and one favor, and the "counting the days". Not sure that's a good idea, but it's an option.
The renown drop for swapping closest to sounds good, though. one option for preventing abuse is having two otherwise identical storylets- one at renown, say, eight+, one before that. The one at below eight would set renown to five, while the one at eight would lower it by three levels.
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Married!:http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/takuza
I will accept all social actions that do not consume free evenings- and i will provide patronage to anyone who requests it, though it will be split between all requesters.
On psudeo-hiatus. Will be inactive and active and fluctuate without warning.
Grinding Favors without cards: http://community.failbettergames.com/topic22266-storylet-favors-grinding.aspx
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Optimatum
Posts: 3666
5/12/2016
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If I'm reading right, suinicide previously misunderstood you to mean that conflict cards would cause +2/-3 in level changes, but now means it would work for CP.
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Optimatum, a ruthless and merciful gentleman. No plant battles, Affluent Photographer requests, or healing offers; all other social actions welcome.
Want a sip of Cider? Just say hi!
PM me for information enigmatic or Fated. Though the forum please, not FL itself.
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suinicide
Posts: 2409
5/12/2016
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Well, yes I misunderstood that. But the +2,-3 was for the closest to. Since it takes a long time to work up to 38 and actually be able to abuse it, I doubt the abuse would be too much.
But the idea for the mark of credit is something I like more, if theres a place for all the factions.
edited by suinicide on 5/12/2016
edited by suinicide on 5/12/2016
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http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/profile/sunnytime
A gentleman seeking the liberation of knowledge, with a penchant for violence.
RIP suinicide, stuck in a well. Still has it under control.
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