Televangelist
Posts: 109
4/22/2016
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I've been playing for about a year and a half now, and I now possess or am on the verge of possessing a number of the game's rarer items (Impossible Theorem, 3200 scrap, Crimson Book, goat, etc)... but if I'm reading the trends in the dev team correctly, the game's trend in storytelling has shifted very strongly away from rare/difficult items unlocking content, and toward Exceptional Story and Seasonal content that's very much 'out there for everybody' (and offering content that's normally very punishing, like the five-card lodgings, so cheaply as seasonal items that you'd be mad to do it the 'standard' way).
This doesn't seem likely to change anytime soon -- I'd bet money, for example, that we won't see anyone founding a Parabolan Base Camp this year, or that the 3200 scrap items will gain any particularly meaningful use. The same is true for other rare items I possess; cantigaster venom, the tragedy procedures, element of dawn, mountain-sherd, etc., all seem unlikely to gain any use in the future given the current direction of the game's development.
This is all well and good, I suppose! I like the Exceptional Stories, I like that interesting content isn't grind-locked, and I suppose I get some warm fuzziness out of 'collecting rare things' even if they ultimately have no functional use whatsoever beyond the mere fact of their rarity.
But if that's how things are going to be... why make it take a year to get to 3200 scrap? Why make it take ages to obtain an impossible theorem? Why does an Overgoat have to cost what it does, instead of a fifth as much? Why scarcity for scarcity's sake, far beyond what's required just to pace out the content?
edited by Televangelist on 4/22/2016
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Mr Sables
Posts: 597
4/22/2016
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Televangelist wrote:
IBut if that's how things are going to be... why make it take a year to get to 3200 scrap? Why make it take ages to obtain an impossible theorem? Why does an Overgoat have to cost what it does, instead of a fifth as much? Why scarcity for scarcity's sake, far beyond what's required just to pace out the content?
edited by Televangelist on 4/22/2016
I think the game is designed to be accessible to everyone . . .
That being said, it's a game without an 'end' as of yet, and it has to hold people's interest. If a player plays for long enough, they tend to complete most of the stories and fill their stats to the max, and so you have the dilemma of how to keep them playing . . . both for profit financially as a company, but also as an artist tying to weave a story and keep people hooked until an actual end.
These insanely hard grinds keep end-game players going; it's something that takes time, something they have to have a huge amount of skill to earn, and something so rare that it makes the long grind worth it and pays off fairly. It works as both a status item, to show others how far you've come, along with something to aim for to keep you playing and to give you something to do. If everything was that hard, you'd lose out on some players . . . I'm not sure I'd play knowing that everything, including the lodgings I currently have from a seasonal play, were so grindy and difficult and such a chore, and losing out on so much in the process.
I think the game balances things out well. It makes some things 'seasonal', like lodgings, which seems fair to me, as it keeps people playing over the season and gives a well-needed change of pace from the usual gameplay . . . a change is necessary at times, else you can get bogged down with the 'same' feeling after playing daily for months or years on end. It also makes things like the Overgoat so annoyingly difficult to get that it's worth it for people who enjoy challenges, grinding, and so forth . . . so you always have a goal, even at end-game.
I think it's more to give something to everyone.
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Kittenpox
Posts: 869
4/22/2016
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I had a long thing typed out, but Robin's comment is worded much better than mine. ^_^
[spoiler]I'm in two minds about this one.
On the one hand, there are certainly quite a few items which seem thoroughly pointless to have - and I definitely agree that it would be nice to see some of them have some actual use.
(I'm currently up to 4857 Certifiable Scrap, because I've already bought a 'Reported Location of a One-Time Prince of Hell' and have found nothing meaningful worth spending the rest on. I only obtained a Fluke-Core to reduce the Nadir opportunity deck by 1 card.)
On the other hand, the Impossible Theorem has a purpose, and I actually liked that the grind was long and arduous. (It's not a 'Mildly Complicated' Theorem, after all. We're going for something BIG here. I got exploded a couple of times while trying to create it.)
Similarly, the Overgoat could be priced at 2000 echoes, or 20 echoes, or 2 echoes - but it doesn't seem right to me that you're acquiring the services of a terrifying goat-demon from hell by just having it handed to you on a platter. (Yes, it's expensive and takes a while to obtain. I know full well, having bought two of them now.)
But that feeling of "I've been through so much, and now I've finally achieved what I set out to do. Looking back, I can see that I've come so far." is only meaningful if the journey had some effort involved.
The Parabolan Base Camp is still "Impossible!" - but given that my Having Recurring Dreams: Is Someone There? is at 19 and the action is currently listed as requiring it that Quality be at 99, it might as well have the requirement of "Unlocked with: 1x Moose" for all the difference it makes. Until it is no longer "Impossible!", the other requirements are irrelevant.
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Not sure if this helps at all, but some advice:
1) Don't focus on grinding. You'll get burnt-out and get sick of the game.
2) Don't focus on progression. You'll run out of things to do, and get sick of the game.
Do a bit of both, and have multiple concurrent goals to work on.
If one of the things you're working on decides "Hey, you need three thousand Scrap" - go do something else and come back to it later. You'll get the scrap eventually. This applies to anything that you can't directly work towards. :-)
I didn't get my second Overgoat because I was aiming for it. I got it because I was like "I've got a fair bit of stuff, I wonder how much I've got that's worth selling", realised that I had accumulated a fair bit of stuff and that I hadn't gone for an Ubergoat yet, and figured heck why not. So then I worked out what I had that I could easily replace, didn't use, or didn't want, and sold those - then did some grinding to finish off the last couple hundred echoes.[/spoiler]
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Kittenpox
Current [Fabulous Diamond] count: Twenty-Five (of 50). Halfway there! ^_^
Metaphysical Caprice: 11.
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Currently: Returned to the Neath, and regaining my footing in this place. :-)
NO PLANT BATTLES PLEASE.
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metasynthie
Posts: 645
4/25/2016
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That's odd... I thought one of the ultimate goals of Fallen London was to gather large quantities of numerical values whose purpose is mysterious at best? That certainly seems like a more wobbly, personal, and deeply-fathomed web of goals than "wait until the last Ambition update and do some steps to find out what happens" but mileage varies by taste, of course.
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Positively antique
http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/metasynthie
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genesis
Posts: 924
4/22/2016
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Future-proofing, challenge, player retention and community kudos
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http://fallenlondon.com/Profile/mikey_thinkin
Keeping track of incomplete content and loose ends in Fallen London
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TheThirdPolice
Posts: 609
4/25/2016
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As people have said, the rare grinds are the endgame hook. It's not the most interesting way to do it, but it is the easiest and probably the one that appeals to the largest number of players. I'd love it if Failbetter created more mechanically opaque, tactically interesting endgame content. Then the spades can test mechanics, the diamonds can compete more on skill than the amount of time they put in, and the hearts can facilitate sharing the spading results or providing useful social actions.*
Come to think of it, the way NiteBrite talks about Mr Eaten endgame, it fits that description pretty well, and catered to clubs more than any sane official content would. Would be neat to see a return to that community engagement, without the main Eaten issues of course. As it stands, the two meta-interactions for players are comparing achievements (which with a few exceptions are just a function of the time you put in) and Knife and Candle (which I would guess only appeals to a small section of the playerbase, even when it's available).
*Look up "Bartle MUD suits" if you don't know what I'm talking about.
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Excessive Corpse & Tender to Irreal Ravens
Lover of Flawed Souls
And with especial pride, Worst Screwup of the Decade!
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Ian Hart
Posts: 437
4/25/2016
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TheThirdPolice wrote:
As people have said, the rare grinds are the endgame hook. It's not the most interesting way to do it, but it is the easiest and probably the one that appeals to the largest number of players. I'd love it if Failbetter created more mechanically opaque, tactically interesting endgame content. Then the spades can test mechanics, the diamonds can compete more on skill than the amount of time they put in, and the hearts can facilitate sharing the spading results or providing useful social actions.*
Come to think of it, the way NiteBrite talks about Mr Eaten endgame, it fits that description pretty well, and catered to clubs more than any sane official content would. Would be neat to see a return to that community engagement, without the main Eaten issues of course. As it stands, the two meta-interactions for players are comparing achievements (which with a few exceptions are just a function of the time you put in) and Knife and Candle (which I would guess only appeals to a small section of the playerbase, even when it's available).
*Look up "Bartle MUD suits" if you don't know what I'm talking about.
Totally agree! These are my favorite parts of Fallen London, like the Cave of the Nadir and the Passion Destiny.
I really hope the player investment and Fate purchases they draw justifies their development cost, because they're absolutely what keeps me coming back.
Wikis and forums really do hurt this sort of thing though, since I'm sure it takes a great deal of time (and talent) to write content like this that's lore friendly, complex, and valuable to the development of the game overall. It's a shame that only the leading edge of players get the experience of "solving" them, and everyone else only plays the profitable portion of that discovery space. Even that is still fun though, especially when it plays around with FL's more unique mechanics, like the opportunity deck, and quality unlocks.
edited by Ian Hart on 4/25/2016
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http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Antifinity
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A B Nile
Posts: 414
4/25/2016
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As a small aside, it doesn't take anywhere near a year to grind 3200 - more like 2-3 months if you have all the lodgings and flip cards reasonably regularly.
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My profile: A B Nile
My alt: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate
(seeking Acquaintances and accepting all social actions)
Item conversion table - finally complete with all rare successes!
Bloody, bold and resolute
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Optimatum
Posts: 3666
4/23/2016
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I don't think the rarest items ever were really less meaningless. The Overgoat, Ubergoat, and Hesperidean Cider are the only ones substantially useful and most difficult to obtain items have never had uses. For example way back in the first couple Feasts of the Rose you could grind for various things and supposedly exchange them for a Stone Tentacle-Key. The Key is now obtained by looping Hunter's Keep a couple times. The only use it's ever had is simplifying a single step of Heart's Desire.
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Optimatum, a ruthless and merciful gentleman. No plant battles, Affluent Photographer requests, or healing offers; all other social actions welcome.
 Want a sip of Cider? Just say hi!
PM me for information enigmatic or Fated. Though the forum please, not FL itself.
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Estelle Knoht
Posts: 1751
4/25/2016
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I don't know about you, metasynthie, but I certainly found it immensely satisfying to rush through Heart's Desire and hit the content boundary twice while people around me bemoans the price of Rookery Passwords and other assorted items. Or you could look at it the more cynical way and think "it'd really suck if I got to a dramatic bit of a story and then the pacing gets killed because it takes forever to grab a Night-Whisper".
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Estelle Knoht, a juvenile, unreliable and respectable lady.
I currently do not accept any catbox, cider, suppers, calling cards or proteges.
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Macragg
Posts: 32
4/25/2016
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A B Nile wrote:
As a small aside, it doesn't take anywhere near a year to grind 3200 - more like 2-3 months if you have all the lodgings and flip cards reasonably regularly.
I've seen this sort of thing mentioned before and it always makes my head spin. I've been playing for about 3 years and still only have some 300-odd pieces of scrap!
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A B Nile
Posts: 414
4/25/2016
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Macragg wrote:
A B Nile wrote:
As a small aside, it doesn't take anywhere near a year to grind 3200 - more like 2-3 months if you have all the lodgings and flip cards reasonably regularly.
I've seen this sort of thing mentioned before and it always makes my head spin. I've been playing for about 3 years and still only have some 300-odd pieces of scrap!
Do you gamble Scrap? If so, the Fallen London Scrapgambling Temperance League would like a word with you. That way lies only madness and destitution.
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My profile: A B Nile
My alt: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate
(seeking Acquaintances and accepting all social actions)
Item conversion table - finally complete with all rare successes!
Bloody, bold and resolute
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Estelle Knoht
Posts: 1751
4/25/2016
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Generally speaking, I think most people only assign values to the items because it is either something for the mantelpiece, an RP expression, or most likely "it may help me progress in story one day".
Also I just discovered that Rat bags are free accept so you can technically do a very very inconvenient trade for any services you require. Need a skull? Send me 3000 rats. Something like that.
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Estelle Knoht, a juvenile, unreliable and respectable lady.
I currently do not accept any catbox, cider, suppers, calling cards or proteges.
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Macragg
Posts: 32
4/25/2016
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Kittenpox wrote:
Macragg wrote:
A B Nile wrote:
Macragg wrote:
A B Nile wrote:
As a small aside, it doesn't take anywhere near a year to grind 3200 - more like 2-3 months if you have all the lodgings and flip cards reasonably regularly.
I've seen this sort of thing mentioned before and it always makes my head spin. I've been playing for about 3 years and still only have some 300-odd pieces of scrap!
Do you gamble Scrap? If so, the Fallen London Scrapgambling Temperance League would like a word with you. That way lies only madness and destitution.
Not a bit of it! I don't trust those Relickers any further than I could throw them, were I hypothetically inclined to touch one.
Do you have assorted higher-level lodgings? (by 3 years I'd presume you had the three 4-card lodgings, the Handsome Townhouse, and Decommissioned Steamer) If so, the appropriate option on their respective Opportunity Cards should have you rolling in Scrap in no time.
If you wanted to rush primarily for Scrap over whatever your other Opportunity Cards provide, a Sulky Bat has a chance of getting Scrap too.
I don't have *all* the lodgings- currently missing a room in the Royal Beth and the Brass Embassy (partly for character-related reasons, partly just because I've never bothered to actually go about acquiring them), but I have the rest. I suspect part of my issue is that I don't tend to play with long-term goals in mind very often, so I don't do much to optimize my rate of return. I'll look into getting those other two lodgings.
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Optimatum
Posts: 3666
4/25/2016
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Those two four-card lodgings have 3-scrap options and are Frequent like the Bazaar lodgings so appear twice as often as the default. So yeah they help a lot.
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Optimatum, a ruthless and merciful gentleman. No plant battles, Affluent Photographer requests, or healing offers; all other social actions welcome.
Want a sip of Cider? Just say hi!
PM me for information enigmatic or Fated. Though the forum please, not FL itself.
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Grenem
Posts: 2067
4/25/2016
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CALLNXW wrote:
Yeah, but the skull is either used up immediately or a curse, and the packages are a friendly gamble. I'll give you the Coins, though.
I can, if i want, ask my freind to send me 100 request for eyeless skulls at a point early game, then send him a skull whenever i find one. one day's actions to recieve 6250 echoes over a long period of time. This is the biggest exploit, but not that viable- very small window of oppurtunity, and you have to find a freind or aquaintance willing to send every eyeless skull they find and the type of person to go on ~1000+ expeditions. most people don't meet these criteria.
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Married!:http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/takuza
I will accept all social actions that do not consume free evenings- and i will provide patronage to anyone who requests it, though it will be split between all requesters.
On psudeo-hiatus. Will be inactive and active and fluctuate without warning.
Grinding Favors without cards: http://community.failbettergames.com/topic22266-storylet-favors-grinding.aspx
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Ian Hart
Posts: 437
4/25/2016
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It has been said for years that Fallen London does have an ending planned out, and that we'll get there eventually.
I would be both disappointed and surprised if wrapping up all these plot threads of cosmological importance doesn't at least allow the option to spend/use our precious items for advantage or lore. I do agree that it'll likely take years of waiting though...
Also, if you really want a way to burn huge amounts of resource, Seeking the Name is supposedly coming back in a year or two, and last time it was in, you could spend 3200 Scrap items to make slight progress on one of the carousels, so it should have your grinding needs well satisfied.
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http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Antifinity
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Optimatum
Posts: 3666
4/23/2016
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You are correct, it is part of Nemesis too according to the wiki. It's utterly useless outside of those tow ambition steps though. Perhaps it will appear in future updates, but for now neither Light Fingers nor Bag a Legend! use it at all.
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Optimatum, a ruthless and merciful gentleman. No plant battles, Affluent Photographer requests, or healing offers; all other social actions welcome.
Want a sip of Cider? Just say hi!
PM me for information enigmatic or Fated. Though the forum please, not FL itself.
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Optimatum
Posts: 3666
4/25/2016
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I've gotten two 3200-scrap items so far, the first a couple months ago after saving up a thousand scraps extra and the second just now. I haven't even been using all the lodgings cards for it so it could definitely happen faster at the expense of other things.
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Optimatum, a ruthless and merciful gentleman. No plant battles, Affluent Photographer requests, or healing offers; all other social actions welcome.
Want a sip of Cider? Just say hi!
PM me for information enigmatic or Fated. Though the forum please, not FL itself.
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Optimatum
Posts: 3666
4/25/2016
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That's not entirely true. There's a few options to exchange items worth money, notably Surprise Packages, the various other Give a Gift options, Eyeless Skulls, and First City Coins.
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Optimatum, a ruthless and merciful gentleman. No plant battles, Affluent Photographer requests, or healing offers; all other social actions welcome.
Want a sip of Cider? Just say hi!
PM me for information enigmatic or Fated. Though the forum please, not FL itself.
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Parelle
Posts: 1084
4/25/2016
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TheThirdPolice wrote:
*Look up Bartle MUD suits if you don't know what I'm talking about.
That's fascinating, actually. Thanks for pointing that article out!
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Parelle, Lady Joseph Marlen. The Singular Librarian. A Midnighter, a Player of the Marvelous.
pages from a dusty bookshop: a badly updated FL changelog | Useful Guidance and Explanations
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Sara Hysaro
Moderator
Posts: 4514
4/25/2016
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Seconded - that was a really fun read.
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Please do not send SMEN, cat boxes, or Affluent Reporter requests. All other social actions are welcome.
Are you a Scarlet Saint? Send a message my way to be added to the list.
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