Erika
Posts: 528
3/22/2016
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Cecil wrote:
Can we have the banner in-game mention this? I didn't check the forums yesterday and now it's been 20 hours since the announcement. I don't think players should be expected to check the forums everyday to get this kind of information. It's been three days, I really think this is more pertinent information than the app coming out next month, hell, have both sets of information in the banner.
I also agree, that Renown should increase the number of Favours one can have at the same time. Renown feels extremely useless and tedious at the moment, this would very neatly fix that and give a massive incentive to increase Renown. Although, I do hate that Criminal Renown adds a card to the deck that's impossible to get rid of, as Renown can't be spent. The card should at the least, be unlocked with 1 x Favours: Criminals.
--
 Where the sun is hot, the moon is beautiful, and mysterious lights pass overhead while we all pretend to sleep.
Going on a fate expedition? I'm collecting data! Help me?
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Kittenpox
Posts: 869
3/22/2016
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Cecil wrote:
...Criminal Renown adds a card to the deck that's impossible to get rid of...
Ah, good to know! I guess I'll stick with my original plan of spending Connections as much as possible before the change, then, at least until I know that the cards are going to be more help than hindrance. :-)
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Kittenpox
Current [Fabulous Diamond] count: Twenty-Five (of 50). Halfway there! ^_^
Metaphysical Caprice: 11.
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Currently: Returned to the Neath, and regaining my footing in this place. :-)
NO PLANT BATTLES PLEASE.
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The Master
Posts: 804
3/22/2016
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Cecil wrote:
Cecil wrote:
Can we have the banner in-game mention this? I didn't check the forums yesterday and now it's been 20 hours since the announcement. I don't think players should be expected to check the forums everyday to get this kind of information. It's been three days, I really think this is more pertinent information than the app coming out next month, hell, have both sets of information in the banner.
I also agree, that Renown should increase the number of Favours one can have at the same time. Renown feels extremely useless and tedious at the moment, this would very neatly fix that and give a massive incentive to increase Renown. Although, I do hate that Criminal Renown adds a card to the deck that's impossible to get rid of, as Renown can't be spent. The card should at the least, be unlocked with 1 x Favours: Criminals.
But...the card that it adds is a +1 favour card, the only reason to not want it is if you need a specific card really soon but the card is good when that's not the case.
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A very ruthless and daring doctor of the neath.
No more gift exchanges, im getting too many and I can barely hold these.
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Mr Sables
Posts: 597
3/22/2016
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Cecil wrote:
I also agree, that Renown should increase the number of Favours one can have at the same time. Renown feels extremely useless and tedious at the moment, this would very neatly fix that and give a massive incentive to increase Renown. Although, I do hate that Criminal Renown adds a card to the deck that's impossible to get rid of, as Renown can't be spent. The card should at the least, be unlocked with 1 x Favours: Criminals.
I don't mind the favours; I rather like them, actually.
The renown kind of . . . peeves me off. Like, I had 22 connection of docks, but 0 renown for the docks. I'm at around 5 renown for criminals, but been stuck at that for so many months that I've never even bothered keeping an eye on it . . . it never seems to have any opportunities to increase it, no reasons or opp cards that require it, and frankly it's just taking up space. I'm in total terror over my other connections. Will I go from 50-ish Tomb Colonies to none, too? Will I eventually be able to grind renown, only to never use/need it? What's even the point of these changes when the old system worked perfectly fine?
I'm . . . cynical to say the least :-/
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MrBurnside
Posts: 188
3/22/2016
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Robin Mask wrote:
The renown kind of . . . peeves me off. Like, I had 22 connection of docks, but 0 renown for the docks. I'm at around 5 renown for criminals, but been stuck at that for so many months that I've never even bothered keeping an eye on it . . . it never seems to have any opportunities to increase it, no reasons or opp cards that require it, and frankly it's just taking up space.
Well, renown is increase-able with the Old Bone Skeleton Key, and when you get it to 20 it gives you a profitable card. I'll grant you that this isn't mentioned in game, but if it bugged you that much, it is wikiable. As for the "taking up space" bit... I don't really know what to say. I mean, how much space it takes up is measurable in bits, not MBs and the text is on a collapsible list on a separate tab. Hardly taking up valuable HUD space.
Cecil wrote:
I also agree, that Renown should increase the number of Favours one can have at the same time. Renown feels extremely useless and tedious at the moment, this would very neatly fix that and give a massive incentive to increase Renown.
This is complete supposition, but I think players weren't intended to have such a massive incentive to increase renown. The low cap, on the contrary, seems intended to keep them liquid; to prevent hoarding. Look at the docks/orphan conflict card: only drawable when docks favors are 3 or 4. This suggests to me that being at cap isn't something players are intended to maintain.
After all main factions are implemented this system could be highly dynamic. The dynamic Favors could be a positive boon for RPers of manipulative characters, as they represent shifting favors and connections. The harder to shift Renown being a positive boon for RPers of more steadfast allies; allowing them to have a permanent investment in a faction (at the cost of immediate profitability).
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dov
Posts: 2580
3/22/2016
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MrBurnside wrote:
This is complete supposition, but I think players weren't intended to have such a massive incentive to increase renown. The low cap, on the contrary, seems intended to keep them liquid; to prevent hoarding. Look at the docks/orphan conflict card: only drawable when docks favors are 3 or 4. This suggests to me that being at cap isn't something players are intended to maintain.
After all main factions are implemented this system could be highly dynamic. The dynamic Favors could be a positive boon for RPers of manipulative characters, as they represent shifting favors and connections. The harder to shift Renown being a positive boon for RPers of more steadfast allies; allowing them to have a permanent investment in a faction (at the cost of immediate profitability). Well, that's the theory, and I agree with the goal. However, I think this suffers in practice.
I think that my problem with the practicality of Renown is that - as it stands today - it doesn't feel like an RP quality. Renown feels like just a grind. Nothing more, nothing less. If you want high Renown (either for bragging rights or to unlock a new option at 20), then you pay and you pay (in actions and in resources) until you raise it to your liking.
To really represent RP of getting known by a faction, I'd expect there to be actions throughout the game (opportunity cards, certain story consequences) which will help the player feel that they are working closely with some faction, and seeing Renown raised to reflect it.
Right now, increasing Renown feels like the Quirk polishers (above 12). Up until level 10, the quirks really seem to reflect player RP choices (especially since they can drop!). Beyond that, the quirks' level is just a measure of how much grinding was done - not RP choices.
Getting Renown really high feels like the game telling you that some faction knows you well, instead of letting you play a character which makes the choices which are noticed by the faction.
As comparison, other qualities such as A Fearsome Duelist, or Boatman's Opponent, are still a grind, but raising them does feel like an RP choice.
--
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Parelle
Posts: 1084
3/22/2016
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dov wrote:
Right now, increasing Renown feels like the Quirk polishers (above 12)...
Actually, I think this is pretty insightful (though I'm going to go with in a different direction than what you've mentioned further on).
Renown/Favours and the Quirk polishers appear to me to be a solution for the same type of problem: how to balance the game when players have been playing for differing amounts of time with hugely varrying stats while making Factions and Quirks useful as game mechanics.
Some of you have multiple connections into the hundreds, while my top connection is the barely-scrape-the-bottom Society 50 and I've been playing for over a year in a half. That's seriously in part because I've looked at the Connections and thought I'll just never make it up that far. I've increased my connections as needed for story purposes but haven't looked to increase something 'just for the sake of doing so'.
The very profitable conflict cards for the Docks/Widow and Constable/Criminals (actually, is that Urchins? I'm not even sure, as I've never seen it) takes days of grinding connections for me to reach those levels in both factions, while I suspect some of you could (in theory) be able to use those multiple times in a row without harming yourself greatly. More amusingly, there's a set of storylets in 'A Polite Invitation' which depends on connections: I think I'm at Almost Impossible for all three of them!
Lastly, I became a Ratcatcher right before the change over. Gaining 25 docks is actually a bit tricky without Fate - you can pay through the nose for Advice for the Navigator, but luckily there was the Boast About Your Wounds storylet (which I know is now nuked for Favours). So thematically, I sat there and told bad stories about fighting for five hours straight, and there's my Docks 25 from starting at Docks 20. It used up a ton of actions which I was passing at 100% on a maxed out stat and was a pure grind. Boo. I'm not sure what I would have done as a newer player who wouldn't be passing that skill check. I vaguely remember grinding connections for my first profession (Watcher) was also really tedious too. And of course, it promptly nuked the connection in doing so. So I became a Watcher to work with the Constanbles, and when I do... I become person non gratia? That's a awkward disconnect - you're working with people who don't know you exist. Right!
Turn it into Favours/Renown and it's a more level playing field. After the change over, Ratcatcher required Favours 1 (though no Renown). That's either luck based in needing to draw a card for it, or if you're just starting off, the Carnival would provide a Favour along with some CP of Renown. Fairly straightforward. Furthermore, if I'm willing to sacrifice the rather profitable immediate payouts for Favours, I can get up to those higher levels of Renown (though I'm not willing to do that with Docks because of the 3-4 Favour sweet spot).
Quirks appear work similarly - I've increased my steadfast to 14+ but that means I can't safely use a Ruthless action. I accept that and the idea that raising all of your Quirks are meant to be difficult. Ruthless 2 is a perfectly reasonable unlock for me as a consequence (Oh hey, the Zee Festival is going to be quite something this year...)! But Steadfast 12 is also meaningful, at least when the Quirks are capped at 15. Yes, there's definitely some grind into it: I started increasing my Renown Criminals because it also increased Steadfast.
But I do hope that more will come out of this system and that it will unlock more opportunities than it closes off.
--
Parelle, Lady Joseph Marlen. The Singular Librarian. A Midnighter, a Player of the Marvelous.
pages from a dusty bookshop: a badly updated FL changelog | Useful Guidance and Explanations
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Grenem
Posts: 2067
3/22/2016
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dov wrote:
MrBurnside wrote:
This is complete supposition, but I think players weren't intended to have such a massive incentive to increase renown. The low cap, on the contrary, seems intended to keep them liquid; to prevent hoarding. Look at the docks/orphan conflict card: only drawable when docks favors are 3 or 4. This suggests to me that being at cap isn't something players are intended to maintain.
After all main factions are implemented this system could be highly dynamic. The dynamic Favors could be a positive boon for RPers of manipulative characters, as they represent shifting favors and connections. The harder to shift Renown being a positive boon for RPers of more steadfast allies; allowing them to have a permanent investment in a faction (at the cost of immediate profitability). Well, that's the theory, and I agree with the goal. However, I think this suffers in practice.
I think that my problem with the practicality of Renown is that - as it stands today - it doesn't feel like an RP quality. Renown feels like just a grind. Nothing more, nothing less. If you want high Renown (either for bragging rights or to unlock a new option at 20), then you pay and you pay (in actions and in resources) until you raise it to your liking.
To really represent RP of getting known by a faction, I'd expect there to be actions throughout the game (opportunity cards, certain story consequences) which will help the player feel that they are working closely with some faction, and seeing Renown raised to reflect it.
Right now, increasing Renown feels like the Quirk polishers (above 12). Up until level 10, the quirks really seem to reflect player RP choices (especially since they can drop!). Beyond that, the quirks' level is just a measure of how much grinding was done - not RP choices.
Getting Renown really high feels like the game telling you that some faction knows you well, instead of letting you play a character which makes the choices which are noticed by the faction.
As comparison, other qualities such as A Fearsome Duelist, or Boatman's Opponent, are still a grind, but raising them does feel like an RP choice.
Agreed- I mean, I like the renown options on my items- freeing criminals from the constables will always feel worthwhile- but having other renown boosting options could make it feel more like you're actually earning it, like it's actually part of the story, rather than repeating the same deed over and over, because it's the only thing that'd actually impress them.
--
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I will accept all social actions that do not consume free evenings- and i will provide patronage to anyone who requests it, though it will be split between all requesters.
On psudeo-hiatus. Will be inactive and active and fluctuate without warning.
Grinding Favors without cards: http://community.failbettergames.com/topic22266-storylet-favors-grinding.aspx
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suinicide
Posts: 2409
3/22/2016
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It could be incorporated into existing stories pretty easily too. Cheesemonger ups great game renown. The hound of heaven boosts church. Marrying the jewel thief boosts criminals, and so on.
edited by suinicide on 3/22/2016
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http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/profile/sunnytime
A gentleman seeking the liberation of knowledge, with a penchant for violence.
RIP suinicide, stuck in a well. Still has it under control.
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Wiwo
Posts: 365
3/22/2016
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While I agree that more options for increasing and taking advantage of renown are desirable, I quite like the mechanical distinction between "Lasting Faction Reputation" and "Fungible Faction Currency". And, I have to say, I've actually found Docks and Criminals renown gain to 5 (unlocks expedition supplies) and 20 (unlocks A Merry Crime) respectively to be relatively engaging.
--
Wiwo. Almost certainly not a squid in a cunningly tailored suit. Surely.
 Care for some cider? Here's how to ask me for some. Strange pranks strongly preferred.
Care to pet a Heptagoat? Too bad. It doesn't do anything (probably).
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Nigel Overstreet
Posts: 1220
3/22/2016
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The Master wrote:
Cecil wrote:
Although, I do hate that Criminal Renown adds a card to the deck that's impossible to get rid of, as Renown can't be spent. The card should at the least, be unlocked with 1 x Favours: Criminals.
But...the card that it adds is a +1 favour card, the only reason to not want it is if you need a specific card really soon but the card is good when that's not the case. And if you don't want the Favour, that card is the best possible way to get Prisoner' Honey, which has no end of uses in Fallen London.
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metasynthie
Posts: 645
3/22/2016
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But what if an interminable grind is a kind of RP choice that displays admirable/horrifying dedication to one's self-expression?
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Positively antique
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Grenem
Posts: 2067
3/22/2016
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Nigel Overstreet wrote:
The Master wrote:
Cecil wrote:
Although, I do hate that Criminal Renown adds a card to the deck that's impossible to get rid of, as Renown can't be spent. The card should at the least, be unlocked with 1 x Favours: Criminals.
But...the card that it adds is a +1 favour card, the only reason to not want it is if you need a specific card really soon but the card is good when that's not the case. And if you don't want the Favour, that card is the best possible way to get Prisoner' Honey, which has no end of uses in Fallen London.
and in addition to no end of uses- as well as getting 4.4 echoes per favor- it also has practically no start of sources.
--
Married!:http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/takuza
I will accept all social actions that do not consume free evenings- and i will provide patronage to anyone who requests it, though it will be split between all requesters.
On psudeo-hiatus. Will be inactive and active and fluctuate without warning.
Grinding Favors without cards: http://community.failbettergames.com/topic22266-storylet-favors-grinding.aspx
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Kittenpox
Posts: 869
3/23/2016
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metasynthie wrote:
But what if an interminable grind is a kind of RP choice that displays admirable/horrifying dedication to one's self-expression?
That would hold true, only if it can be changed afterwards. If I grind my Renown up to 10, or 20, or 50, and sometime later my character's views change - maybe they don't support the Constables anymore, or maybe they have turned a new leaf and want nothing more to do with the Criminals - how would I get my Renown back down to reflect that change of heart in my character?
I do see where you're coming from with this and I respect your perspective on the matter, but I can't necessarily agree with that statement. :-)
--
Kittenpox
Current [Fabulous Diamond] count: Twenty-Five (of 50). Halfway there! ^_^
Metaphysical Caprice: 11.
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Currently: Returned to the Neath, and regaining my footing in this place. :-)
NO PLANT BATTLES PLEASE.
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friendshipranger
Posts: 274
3/23/2016
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Chris Gardiner wrote:
Hi all - we wanted to let you know that next week we'll be converting Connected: The Tomb-Colonies over to the Favours and Renown system. You can learn more about the Favours and Renown system here.
Because Tomb-Colonists is one of the lesser-used Connected qualities, the conversion of Connected to Renown will be more generous than it was with Connected: the Docks and Connected: Criminals.
Oh thank God. I welcome new grinds, guys and gals, but having them be all opportunity based is absolute murder for compulsive completionists like me. That said, maybe that's what you're trying to combat....maybe.
EDIT: What could be super cool is if the conflict cards gave a bunch of favors. Maybe not 7, but, like 2-3. So that selling somebody down the river feels profitable, you know?
edited by friendshipranger on 3/23/2016
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suinicide
Posts: 2409
3/23/2016
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I'm pretty sure that's how it already works. So no worries there.
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http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/profile/sunnytime
A gentleman seeking the liberation of knowledge, with a penchant for violence.
RIP suinicide, stuck in a well. Still has it under control.
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Ben
Posts: 657
3/24/2016
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So far it really feels like the conflict cards are all going to be a net LOSS of favours and once you rank yourself past the point where you can turn them in with the faction item you won't be able to use it to gain quirk, so you can't just trade them in without limit either.
...
Course I might be grumpy because I'm sitting here, waiting for book of the dead to update, so I can get rid of a going gentle card that's now undiscardable.
My high faction is going to chase me out of my remote adress soon.
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The wind has no destination.
http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/IcountFrom0
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Severine Chamberlain
Posts: 6
3/24/2016
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Ben wrote:
Course I might be grumpy because I'm sitting here, waiting for book of the dead to update, so I can get rid of a going gentle card that's now undiscardable.
I actually came to the forums to see what the deal was with the faction-conflict cards now being no-discard. I can understand them losing their Boxful of Intrigue use, but why remove the discard option?
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Wiwo
Posts: 365
3/24/2016
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Severine Chamberlain wrote:
I actually came to the forums to see what the deal was with the faction-conflict cards now being no-discard. I can understand them losing their Boxful of Intrigue use, but why remove the discard option?
Presumably because it's now much easier to avoid drawing them in the first place by structuring your favours, and they are quite a bit more profitable if managed correctly.
--
Wiwo. Almost certainly not a squid in a cunningly tailored suit. Surely.
Care for some cider? Here's how to ask me for some. Strange pranks strongly preferred.
Care to pet a Heptagoat? Too bad. It doesn't do anything (probably).
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Mizadil
Posts: 57
3/24/2016
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I am rather shocked that item conversions now consume favours, rather than just having a renown unlock. This would have been a splendid opportunity to introduce an actual use for renown. Currently, there seems to be no point in earning any.
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:: A Paramount Presence ::
Correspondent :: "Never too busy to help educate your orphans."
I always have time for a game of chess or sparring bout, and will reciprocate Neath's Mysteries.
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