Vex Acors
Posts: 2
3/1/2016
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An idea: What if Babylon is the First City? After all, you can't get any younger than being created as Babylon fell.
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Charlotte_de_Witte
Posts: 360
3/3/2016
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I think with just a small amount of careful jigger-pokery, the saying; 'even the First City was young when Babylon fell' can actually become a potentially useful clue.
From what I've seen written before, for a large part this has been taken to refer to a sacking/abandonment of the city (of which there were many). A favourite being the Persian invasion in 539 BCE.
I think it's important however to consider who is saying the saying. Which would appear to need to be the people of the Fifth City (or else how could the player hear it?) Most likely Fallen London's scholars and academics.
With the understanding that much of Victorian thinking on near-Eastern Archaeology/Assyriology etc. was influenced by a often literal understanding of Biblical narrative, I think this is where we might find a solution. (How this might have been reinforced or not by the Fall, and the appearance of Devils is really open to interpretation.)
So putting it more concisely, Babylon (Greek name) = Babel (from the Hebrew), so the fall in question might well be referring to the city's famous tower. (Genesis 11: 4-9 incidentally)
Biblical tradition (in large part thanks to Flavius Josephus) makes Nimrod the king who ordered the building of the Tower of Babel.
Gen 10:10 tells us Nimrod's kingdom consisted of (usually this is interpreted as he founded), Babel (Babylon), Erech (Uruk), Akkad and Calneh (still unknown) .
From what I can figure out Literalist chronology places those events less than 100 (ish) years apart. So according to that reading, Uruk, Akkad or Calneh were young (and some of the few cities about after the Flood) when Babylon fell.
With all the other evidence to be found pointing to Uruk, I know which of those three I would pick 
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edited by Charlotte_de_Witte on 3/3/2016
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TheThirdPolice
Posts: 609
3/3/2016
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Years ago, before Google purchase-shanked the Aardvark IM Q&A company, I asked for the name of an ancient city that could be called "crossroads shaded by cedars," probably one that ended in disaster.† Surprisingly, a bemused scholar answered and over the course of a conversation settled on Megiddo as a possibility. I've forgotten the details, but it's very old, very apocalyptic (origin of "armageddon"), very temple-y, and — thank you nameless scholar — apparently quite crossroads-shaded-by-cedar-y.
†I no longer think that last part is necessary, but at the time everyone was into schedules and real world collapse dates. And I do think stories of apocalyptic falls were more likely to catch the writers' attention when choosing cities.
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dov
Posts: 2580
3/2/2016
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Talkes wrote:
you should be looking for a powerful city-state that is older than Babylon, doesn't have many ruins left on the surface (probably none at all, given how old it should be and that a chunk of went to the Neath) and one whose territory was annexed by neighbouring states in a matter of several years, probably with some references to natural disasters, divine punishments related to its' king's misdeeds, legendary heroes and military chiefs in the records. You're assuming that the Fallen Cities happened in our real world's history. But, as is evident by the very premise of Fallen London, the whole story is in a parallel earth (since *our* London obviously never disappeared in the 19th century).
Likewise, there's no need to look for an ancient city which has disappeared in "our" world.
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Tyrone
Posts: 79
3/3/2016
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I personally think it's Uruk
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dov
Posts: 2580
3/3/2016
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If you've read the Heart's Desire Ambition, you'll also know that
[spoiler]There's a very strong parallel between the story of the manager of the Royal Beth (former First City king) and his former lover (Polythreme's King of a Hundred Hearts), and that of Gilgamesh and Enkidu.
[/spoiler]
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Want a sip of Hesperidean Cider? Send me a request in-game. Here's an_ocelot's guide how.
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KestrelGirl
Posts: 138
3/1/2016
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It's commonly accepted that that saying is transposed. Should be "Even Babylon was young when the First City fell." In other words, the First City fell a really, really long time ago.
edited by KestrelGirl on 3/1/2016
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Diptych
Administrator
Posts: 3493
3/1/2016
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Arensen wrote:
(I, personally, could agree with that, were it not for the fact that Jerusalem is, presumably, still intact when Fallen London is set).
I don't think we can safely make any assumptions based on cities' real-world status - after all, Karakorum and Akhetaten, while not strictly 'intact', still solidly exist on the surface in our timeline. It may well be that part of the Neath's alternate history is that the Fallen Cities include some sites that would otherwise still be inhabited.
That said, I used to be in the Jerusalem camp, but I've been convinced that the First City is something in a more Sumerian vein - possibly Uruk. I don't worry too much about the bit of doggerel about Babylon - "they" say a lot of things, and much of it's nonsense.
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Gilphon
Posts: 93
5/3/2016
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They didn't have silver coins, actually- the "First City Coins" we find were actually minted far more recently. Most are less than twenty years old, according to the Numismatrix.
Which make sense, because most reasonable guesses for the First City pre-date the concept of coinage.
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