Sir Joseph Marlen
Posts: 575
2/29/2016
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What exactly is the issue with Rubbery Murders? I've heard that it is infamous for its poor quality of content, but I don't believe I've heard the specifics on why it is bad. Care to clarify for myself and anyone else curious about the matter?
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MrBurnside
Posts: 188
3/1/2016
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Robin Mask wrote:
A lot of it is that I think role-play is a huge part of the game; the fact my character isn't the type to have had those kinds of physical relationships, especially ones that result in children (which he doesn't have), annoyed me a lot . . . it felt like my story was being written for me. It wasn't even something like you had forgotten some time on the surface and could have a child, it was written explicitly that you did have a child and couldn't even work a way around that in the slightest . . . my character has thus had to have changed to some convoluted back-story to accommodate this, which was ridiculous, so I take this stance: "it was all a dreeeeam".
I haven't played LLD, so this should be, perhaps, taken with a grain of salt. But...
...
It's called "Long Lost Daughter." It's in the name. I can't read that name and think anything but: "I will have had a daughter." There's nothing else in the name. It's not "Someone Else's Daughter," or "Lost Child." Its "Long Lost Daughter." Fallen London has a great deal of magic and mystery, but how else did you think you would have a daughter?
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metasynthie
Posts: 645
2/29/2016
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I played the Rubbery Murders somewhat recently; there are three "major endings" (see spoilers below) but then 4-5 "aftermath endings" where you reflect on the choice the led to the major ending and pick a branch to represent why you did it. Those branches are the final decisions of the story.
Rubbery Murders is rather unusual compared to more recent Fate-locked stories in that it's almost entirely linear; before the two choices I mentioned, there's only one other choice in the whole thing. More recent Fate-locked stories have "bushier" reconverging shapes before reaching a final "flower" at the tip where you make your final choice -- you'll eventually get to the same point in the story, but there are other choices to make along the way. (Think about the structure of The Waltz that Moved the World, for instance -- many different things to do to gather information.)
If I were cynical, I might say that Failbetter has drifted more and more towards heeding the advice of many choice-game makers (including themselves) that players really like to feel like they're making a choice every page or two of reading at the very longest -- even if it's a choice that affects a little bit of texture, or order of events / route, or is what's called a "reflective choice" and affects nothing but the mind of the chooser through the act of choice. It's definitely true in my experience that people perceive those kinds of structures as more "like a game" and less "like a click-to-advance interactive slideshow/novel" or however it is people are complaining about relative sparseness of choice these days. There's definitely quite a bit of artfulness involved, no matter how you slice the magician's deck of cards.
The final choice in Rubbery Murders also has "one correct answer" which you can glean from looking at all the evidence you've been reading along the linear way -- which makes it rather different than a lot of other endings in this game. Interestingly, you get the same monetary reward no matter what, but the ethics of the situation are quite different. And I'd say there is a fair amount of lore in there -- about the Roads Beneath, and the activities of devils, social climbers, amber traders, and the prejudice against Rubberies. Everyday stuff in some ways, but isn't that what everyone has been loving about Frequently Deceased?
[spoiler]The major endings involve picking who you think the culprit of the murders is -- and the choice before that has to do with how you interrogate the prime suspect. Doing so in a cursory fashion doesn't require spending any connections or a skill check, but also gives you less evidence. Every ending gives you the same "payment money" from the Constables, but only one gives you a big boost to Watchful, and that's the correct answer (also suggested by the text of that result). Amusingly, you can also accuse the Rubbery suspect of murder, then change your mind and run to stop his execution, and name another suspect -- but you can name him again and repeat the loop, infinitely. It would be hte most sadistic manner of grinding Rubbery connection imaginable, I suppose?[/spoiler]
edited by metasynthie on 2/29/2016
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Estelle Knoht
Posts: 1751
3/2/2016
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One reason that people don't like Rubbery Murders is that it doesn't really touch on motives... while being an extremely ordinary case that you are detached from. Yes, there are vague hints to Flute Street, but it cost the same as Flute Street that you might just pay for the place.
It is basically on the same level as the Term Passing Murder Case except you pay 25 Fate for it and can accuse people out of bad reasons instead of doing your job properly.
The Long-Lost Daughter one is just as vague, but it is significant enough to your character that it can makes for some further roleplaying or at least be provoking. You might have made a friend, or an underling, or an ally, or trounced her without care. You might be hurt or not. It is not the best written thing ever, but it does add something to your character's story that other stories could not (if you think it fits, of course).
They aren't bad, it is just that most won't think it is worth the price tag in comparison to everything else. For the price of Rubbery Murder you could be actually jumping around Flute Street or get Theological Husbandry or two Christmas stories. Sending a bunch of fate rose-gift to people probably makes you feel fuzzier than playing Rubbery Murder, too, so do that first.
edited by Estelle Knoht on 3/2/2016
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Anne Auclair
Posts: 2215
3/1/2016
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Robin Mask wrote:
A lot of it is that I think role-play is a huge part of the game; the fact my character isn't the type to have had those kinds of physical relationships, especially ones that result in children (which he doesn't have), annoyed me a lot . . . it felt like my story was being written for me. It wasn't even something like you had forgotten some time on the surface and could have a child, it was written explicitly that you did have a child and couldn't even work a way around that in the slightest . . . my character has thus had to have changed to some convoluted back-story to accommodate this, which was ridiculous, so I take this stance: "it was all a dreeeeam".
This isn't really a valid complaint as its an optional story-line that clearly advertises its subject matter in advance.
the description curtsy of the Bohemian Sculptress wrote:
Could you really have a long-lost daughter?
"There was someone around earlier. She looked a lot like you. Do you have a relative?"
The game didn't force you into it...
edited by Anne Auclair on 3/1/2016
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Sara Hysaro
Moderator
Posts: 4514
3/1/2016
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It won't work for all characters, but for some the Long Lost Daughter storyline fits in pretty nicely into the character's narrative. I personally was thrilled to see that something I chose on a whim for Gloria ended up explaining a lot about her and the way she is, and it resonated with the path I hope she can take in the future. It wouldn't have worked at all for Madison, and wouldn't have a whole lot of point for Delmar/Sara, but it was a more perfect fit for Gloria than I had anticipated.
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Erika
Posts: 528
3/2/2016
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If you go in with high expectations, prepare to be disappointed, but if you purchase the content with the full intent to enjoy it, you *probably* will.
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NiteBrite
Posts: 1019
2/29/2016
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Sir Joseph Marlen wrote:
What exactly is the issue with Rubbery Murders? I've heard that it is infamous for its poor quality of content, but I don't believe I've heard the specifics on why it is bad. Care to clarify for myself and anyone else curious about the matter?
It's been a while since I've done this content, so I may be remembering falsely, but it just felt lacking in content for its price range and compared to other fate stories of similar value. There's no real new lore learned from it, there's no special rewards or anything to justify the price, and the story isn't especially interesting or compelling. The ending seemed a bit pointless too as its a murder mystery but you don't really solve anything so much as pick whatever you want to be true. I mean I will say it's got more content than a 2 fate storyline, but maybe it would be better as a 7-10 fate story based on length and rewards? It just felt disappointingly empty for what it sells as. I can't see what it sells for anymore. It's like a 25-30 fate story right? I dunno, maybe my assessment is just a poor memory. Perhaps someone who has played it more recently can chime in on the subject.
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Catherine Raymond
Posts: 2518
2/29/2016
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Robin Mask wrote:
Sir Joseph Marlen wrote:
What exactly is the issue with Rubbery Murders? I've heard that it is infamous for its poor quality of content, but I don't believe I've heard the specifics on why it is bad. Care to clarify for myself and anyone else curious about the matter?
See, I didn't actually mind them:
Pros:
- interesting, albeit simplistic, storyline that's mildly entertaining
Cons:
- quite short
- very point-and-click (no use of investigating, flash lays, fascinating, etc.)
- you don't really get to make any real choices until the very end
- I don't remember there being a memorable reward, either?
That being said, I tend to play for story, so I didn't mind this one too much . . . I found it much, much better than Long-Lost Daughter, which actually really peeved me off a lot, to the fact I wish I never played it and actually have a long list of complaints about a lot of it. Rubbery Murders, however, is fine to play if you're low on content, plus the price isn't too bad all things considered . . . it's not the best or the most memorable, but I think you can do a lot worse, too.
Rubbery Murders is a very old story; I think it was in existence when I started playing Fallen London, and that was over 5 years ago! The Flash Lay software hadn't even been written then. :-)
Sir Joseph, I'm curious what you had against Long-Lost Daughter, which I recently played. While LLD wasn't my favorite Fallen London content, it didn't irritate me the way it seems to have irritated you.
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Erika
Posts: 528
2/29/2016
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Long Lost Daughter - 9 storylets, 3 cards, (+2, Old Bones+the Capering Relicker), minimum 13 branches (max 17)
The Rubbery Murders - 15 Storylets (+1, the Capering Relicker), minimum 12 branches (14 max)
Rubbery Murders is notable for being able to replay the story whilst you haven't finished it, which is a nice surprise.
We assume there's no lore in the Rubbery Murders because there's actually at least 16 different endings. You can contact me if you want to know which endings we know nothing about (we're not talking much text at all however).
Long-Lost Daughter, I have ~no idea~ what happens if you turn her over the constables.
Speaking of the Long-Lost Daughter, the ending was binary "turn her over" or "accept her" which is... really bad. Or at least I hate binaries that force choices dismal choices upon the PC.
For comparison the fate Master-Classes in Etiquette, Educating an Elegant Lady and Educating a Young Rubbery are both 5 storylets.(roughly 14 branches each [which have failures! and not including other rubbery fate content branches]).
Do with this information as you will. If FBG feels like this is too information to release, please edit my post accordingly.
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thedeadlymoose
Posts: 214
3/1/2016
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MrBurnside wrote:
Robin Mask wrote:
A lot of it is that I think role-play is a huge part of the game; the fact my character isn't the type to have had those kinds of physical relationships, especially ones that result in children (which he doesn't have), annoyed me a lot . . . it felt like my story was being written for me. It wasn't even something like you had forgotten some time on the surface and could have a child, it was written explicitly that you did have a child and couldn't even work a way around that in the slightest . . . my character has thus had to have changed to some convoluted back-story to accommodate this, which was ridiculous, so I take this stance: "it was all a dreeeeam".
I haven't played LLD, so this should be, perhaps, taken with a grain of salt. But...
...
It's called "Long Lost Daughter." It's in the name. I can't read that name and think anything but: "I will have had a daughter." There's nothing else in the name. It's not "Someone Else's Daughter," or "Lost Child." Its "Long Lost Daughter." Fallen London has a great deal of magic and mystery, but how else did you think you would have a daughter?
The text for Long-Lost Daughter is "Your own daughter? Is it possible?" 
(Though the connection to the Bazaar -- "Down here, someone has always lost a daughter." -- IMO makes the "dream" interpretation surprisingly viable, though!)
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Grenem
Posts: 2067
3/2/2016
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Estelle Knoht wrote:
They aren't bad, it is just that most won't think it is worth the price tag in comparison to everything else. For the price of Rubbery Murder you could be actually jumping around Flute Street or get Theological Husbandry or two Christmas stories. Sending a bunch of fate rose-gift to people probably makes you feel fuzzier than playing Rubbery Murder, too, so do that first.
edited by Estelle Knoht on 3/2/2016
So they're not bad, just markedly inferior.
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Mr Sables
Posts: 597
2/29/2016
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Catherine Raymond wrote:
Sir Joseph, I'm curious what you had against Long-Lost Daughter, which I recently played. While LLD wasn't my favorite Fallen London content, it didn't irritate me the way it seems to have irritated you.
I assume you mean me with this one? XD
A lot of it is that I think role-play is a huge part of the game; the fact my character isn't the type to have had those kinds of physical relationships, especially ones that result in children (which he doesn't have), annoyed me a lot . . . it felt like my story was being written for me. It wasn't even something like you had forgotten some time on the surface and could have a child, it was written explicitly that you did have a child and couldn't even work a way around that in the slightest . . . my character has thus had to have changed to some convoluted back-story to accommodate this, which was ridiculous, so I take this stance: "it was all a dreeeeam".
Actual mechanics:
I remember them being a bit annoying, relying heavily on opportunity cards, I think? I can't remember exactly, but I know it's one that annoyed me to play and felt like a bit of waiting around and back-and-forth. There wasn't really any decent reward, either; unless you make a particular choice that felt ridiculous for anyone to make, in my opinion . . . it's certainly not an option I'd ever make, not even for reward purposes.
The story was also the worst FL story ever written, in my honest opinion. The character was flat and two-dimensional (the daughter), enough so that I built zero emotional connection to her . . . she didn't reveal any personality, any unique aspects, anything that I should care about . . . then the 'reveal' made her outright detestable and villainous, enough that I felt sickened by her. Other 'evil' characters are outright evil; the Vake makes no apologies for eating people, the kids' in the recent EF story were at least sympathetic and complex, and other characters are quite open about their motivations. This daughter was just emotionally manipulative to a sick degree, just 'because'.
That brings me to the final choice, which I felt punished me for having a shred of morality . . . my character isn't entirely moral, as they'll do anything to please the masters and are quite apathetic, to the extent they'll sometimes say 'eh' and do something because it suits them, rather a chaotic neutral type, but they aren't . . . sick or immoral or evil. I got no decent reward, just because I chose what I did, because it was the only option there to play in my opinion.
So yeah . . . to quote a certain 'comic book guy':
"Worst. Story. Ever."
* * *
Below are my thoughts from some past threads (when I played it at the time):
[spoiler]
It doesn't seem to be adding to the lore at all, but also it forced me to 'rewrite' my character and their back-story, which eliminates the role-play and free-choice aspect that the entirety of FL seems to be based upon. Not to mention, the writing isn't the usual standard; I know nothing about said daughter, even after meeting her, everything is vague, a lot is relying on opportunity cards (so I spent fate, including the little extra to flip some cards, but can't even play what I paid for), and generally seems a little . . . clumsy.
I hate saying it, as I know someone put in an incredible amount of time into writing it and making it, so it feels very mean to say. That being said, I don't think there's much of a way of sugar-coating it; some stories I can waffle on for days about how great they are, such as "Flute Street" and "Flint", but this one . . . well . . . it's interesting, I'll give it that.
* * *
'm tempted to raise my master and constable connections, just on the off-chance that I can bribe one of them to let me see her, whereby I can poke her with a large stick and scream: "THIS IS WHY NO ONE LIKES YOU"! Followed by throwing rubbery lumps and rocks at her. Maybe just rocks. A lot of rocks. If I were writing a follow-up to this story . . . the specially-earned item would be the ability to wear her skin as a hat.
In all seriousness; she was a horribly written character, a horrible character, and the option to earn you a special item would be an option only an insane person (or an intense collector) would take . . . NO reason was given why you SHOULD take that option, aside from maybe a mild stroke or severe dementia. I just . . . ugh . . .[/spoiler]
edited by RobinMask on 2/29/2016
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thedeadlymoose
Posts: 214
2/29/2016
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Tangent: I didn't feel the same way about the Long-Lost Daughter; maybe it's that I've read a lot of period stories, but it was very easy for me to understand the desperation of a poor but clever con artist. I had no trouble keeping her. In fact, I really liked her, and thought the story undersold her because there wasn't much more content with her. I agree the writing wasn't the best, but it wasn't awful. My main disappointment with it was that I bought it a second time on an alt who was playing Nemesis with a missing daughter, and there was no tie-in whatsoever 
(There is a lore tie-in, just a non-obvious one that doesn't come within the story itself. It comes with the permanent reward on the Old Bones card in the Nadir. It's only a little, but it's there -- and a potentially significant future thematic element.)
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