Nanako
Posts: 536
2/3/2016
|
I'm pondering a little on the nature of the bazaar, and the masters. Exactly what both are is shrouded in mystery of course, but i'm collecting snippets here and there.
From the Tireless Mechanic's storyline in Sunless Sea, it's pretty much stated that the bazaar is a spaceship of some sort, The Stone Pigs (whatever they are) are it's engines, i think.
And from various mentions here and there, especially the ending of the Jack of Smiles storyline [Spoiler alert] http://i.imgur.com/D8EmjON.jpg
It seems that it uses love as a fuel source, somehow? Or at least stories of love. How on earth does that work?
The logical conclusion of that then, is that the Masters are aliens, perhaps the crew of that ship? I'm not sure why they're on earth, or what their business is with the various fallen cities. Although to hazard a guess, i'd say they crash landed here somehow, and maybe they're trying to gather enough fuel to take off again
And a crew of twelve seems awfully small for such a large vessel. Were there others in the past? have many of their species died, perhaps?
I'd love some insights and theories on this matter. What are your thoughts?
edited by Nanako on 2/3/2016
--
Sunless Skies needs engine and speed control mechanics. Have a look at my design proposal for implementing it
http://community.failbettergames.com/topic25687-a-design-for-engines.aspx
|
|
|
+1
link
|
Kyron The Wise
Posts: 45
10/19/2016
|
Right, here is what has happened, based off The Seventh Letter, and various snippets from SMEN (Not anything past King of Ways, so it's acceptable)
The Bazaar was at one point a Courier: an interstellar mailman/woman/crab of sorts. It brought messages between creatures in the High Wilderness, typically Judgments, or possibly exclusively Judgments. At one point, well...you know the idea of someone doing the mailman? That, except between our Sun, and the Bazaar. Problem is, by Judgment Law, specifically their Law of the Great Chain, beings can only be with certain other beings. Bazaar+Sun? Not permitted. Even worse, a child was begotten from this tryst, the Mountain of Light, AKA Stone. Also forbidden.
The Bazaar fled to the Neath. At some point before this, it struck a bargain with the Twelve (The Masters). The Twelve wanted protection from...something (Likely whatever is called the Hunter in The Seventh Letter), and they came with, sacrificing the wealth of the High Wilderness to do so. Down in the Neath, because of the Nadir and the Seven Treacheries, the Bazaar is safe from the Judgements...for now. However, to stay down in the Neath, its engines, the Stone Pigs, need to be drugged, otherwise it will be launched back up. This is the purpose of Lacre, to keep the Stone Pigs sleeping. To make Lacre...well, you melt down people. It's suggested that this is why more and more cities are pulled down: the Bazaar needs more and more people. Another goal is the accumulation of stories of Love, typically more...unusual ones. It's also been hypothesized that the Bazaar is seeking to find a way to show that the Great Chain is not absolute; to justify its actions. And it doesn't have forever; once the Seventh City falls, it shall be taken to answer for its crimes before its own master (possibly the White, down here, couriers are heavily involved in the Great Game, and our Game is but a reflection of the Greater Game), as will our Sun, which will end in the pair (and possibly the Masters) being...well, eaten by dragons. Needless to say, this will not end well for us, as the Earth kinda needs the Sun.
As for the Masters, we know that they are basically space bats. In Sunless Sea and Fallen London, when it says London was stolen by bats, it's not a joke. As for their origins, the original Twelve are from the High Wilderness, which you might consider as space (though it is oh so much more than simply outer space). However, the flesh of these Twelve is transcendent. While one cannot by themselves ascend the Chain (we speak not of the Red Science, it does not exist), by consuming something greater than yourself, something higher on the Chain, you may incorporate it, though it might incorporate you. This was done before, with betrayal, it could conceivably be done again (After all, Master's Blood is an attainable item).
To address a few other points:
The Bazaar is not the source of the bizzarities (heh) of the Neath; the Nadir is older, and I believe the Treacheries are as well. It is hiding here. The death taking you is not because you travel away from the Bazaar, but the Neath (or maybe away from the Mountain of Light, not entirely solid on how the Treacheries work).
The Correspondence script adorning it is likely both a relic of its original duties (Correspondence is the script of the High Wilderness, and of the Judgements, so most things originating in the HW probably learn it as a matter of necessity), and possibly a record of certain love stories? I seem to recall some instances of the script translating into peculiar love tales.
The Twelve are not likely Parabolan. There is a state of war between the Judgements (Is) and Parabolans (Is-Not) and I find it unlikely they would have survived for long (Sunlight destroys, Starlight corrodes those of Is-Not). Though, given that the Hunter uses (IIRC) 'solar insults', this would explain a bit.
As mentioned, the Mountain of Light is indeed the Bazaar's child. However, it is possible that it's ability to prevent death is more connected to its Judgement heritage (Judgements declare the Laws of the universe, what Is) more than its space-crab heritage, but it is possible.
Of course, this may not be entirely accurate, I do not have a majority of the journal entries in front of me. However, it should be mostly accurate.
--
Kyron The Wise, Correspondent, and thus always a wee bit insane. Also now on the Seeking Road, I do not desire Mr. Eaten's name, but pursue the identity of another name. (Main Account):
http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Kyron~The~Wise
Secondary, previously dreaming of Parabola, now dreaming of the Name, account:
http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Librari
You can argue with me, and you might even defeat my points. But somewhere along the way I may use philosophy to make you question existence. Who's the real winner?
|
|
|
+18
link
|
Rupho Schartenhauer
Posts: 787
1/18/2017
|
Having recently finished SMEN, I will now take an extensive break from Fallen London. I've been playing this game since late 2010, and have spent a likely unhealthy amount of time pondering Neathy lore. The Masters in particular have always held a strong fascination for me ‒ probably because they represent "one of those boxes of neatly arranged colours that are so irresistible to the geek mind", as Alexis put it ‒ and I've analyzed their characters down to an absurd degree. So I thought it was only in-character if the Professor once more shared some of his dangerous and subversive theories with fellow Londoners before leaving for a long scientific voyage. 
What's wrong with Mr Spices?
You've probably noticed: Mr Spices fills the role of nervous, fidgeting paranoid amoung the Masters. Even its voice is a panicked shrill. Why is that? I think it's afraid. Afraid of being "the next Eaten".
It is my theory that Masters have been sacrificed ‒ or "lost", or "usurped" maybe ‒ twice before (on other planets). When that happened, one of the others took over their role and personality. Thus Apples/Hearts and Cups/Mirrors. Maybe this is due to the original contract between the Bazaar and them requiring the number of 12 Masters, I don't know. Only, when Candles was sacrificed, something went wrong: there were two Masters interested in taking over its role: Wines and Spices. Apparently, there was no way to settle the dispute ‒ and now we're stuck with only 11 Masters, two of them in eternal opposition over who rules Dreams. While Wines seems to have some allies among the other Masters ‒ plus is apparently solely responsible for negotiating the contracts for new cities*** ‒ Spices appears to be isolated. It would probably be the one all the others could agree on being replaceable, in the event of such a replacement being necessary.
My theory is that 12 Masters are needed somehow for travelling Between Stars. Meaning there's no real hurry right now, but they will definitely have to increase their ranks again before leaving Earth behind.
*** Why Wines, anyway? Only because it's the one Master humans find most easy to get along with due to its friendly façade? I've said it before somewhere that of all the Masters (maybe excluding Veils), Wines is the one I like the least. It's like the prototypical suave movie villain: smalltalking you over a good drink while behind the scenes everything is being prepared for your gruesome murder later on. There are only two things Wines ever cares about: Power, and Having a Good Time. In that order; don't let its jocular manner deceive you.
Stones and Fires
There seems to be one other open conflict between two Masters; however, this seems to be mostly a conflict of characters. Stones is a single-minded conservative, completely bent on its one interest (Stones) and the fulfilling of the contract. Fires is a progressive, seriously interested in humanity's technological advances (not in the humans themselves, though). It seems completely happy in the Neath and shows no desire whatever to fulfill the contract and leave Earth behind anytime soon. Funny enough, this actually increases its dependance on Stones if we're correct to assume that diamonds, and other rare gems, are what's needed to keep the Stone Pigs tranquil (maybe it's what they eat). This puts them at something of a stalemate, especially as I can't see Stones showing any inclination of taking over Fires' role (or anybody's, for that matter).
Something else about Fires: I wouldn't be surprised if it had been the most outspoken advocate of making London the 5th City. The country where the steam-engine was invented, the kickstarter to the Industrial Revolution? London's Fall must've been a wet dream come true for old Fires ‒ whose name is already something of an anachronism, incidentally. "Steam", "Gears" or "Brass" would fit better. Curiously, it seems to be the only one among all the Masters with any inclination towards machinery and engineering ‒ only inclination though, no particular talent.
Indeed, one could argue that Stones is the only truly gifted craftsman among the Masters. Cups certainly collects a lot of things, but I don't see it making any pottery or crockery itself. Most of Wines' creations are unpalatable, the odd success here or there not withstanding. Pages' attempts at literature are hilarious. They are talented at selling things, not making them ‒ with Stones being the notable exception.
But of course, what we all really want to know is...
Whatever happened in the Second City?
The flashbacks we see here and there suggest that life in the 2nd City must've been good ‒ peaceful and prosperous. Indeed, Amarna seems to have been the only city which ever really prospered in the Neath. How was this possible? Due to some loophole in the contract, probably, which the Duchess ruthlessly exploited. Whether Candles was actively helping her, or just generally sympathetic, I'm not sure. Anyway, the Masters were certainly unable to wield the kind of power we're used from them in Fallen London. They were just businessmen, no more, no less. Which seems to have hurt their pride something fierce. All the Masters? Maybe.*** There might've been a few who were quite content ‒ Spices and Fires would be my guess. Candles, definitely.
*** Usually, we see Wines, Veils and Apples/Hearts as the driving forces behind the Betrayal. I suspect that Spices was the closest Candles might've had to a "friend" or ally. Which would provide another explanation for its fierce opposition to Wines... If my judgement of their characters is correct, then Wines just wants more power ‒ but I'm not so sure about Spices. It might see an obligation to take over its friend's mantle; or maybe it's truly convinced that Wines' approach to Dreams is incorrect ‒ their dispute might be actually philosophical, not just a power struggle.
The Third City was a slaughterhouse
Usually, the Masters buy a city to "farm" love-stories for the Bazaar. The Third City's contract was unique in that, by this point, (most of) the Masters must've been so desperate to escape their "prison" that they were willing to agree to any kind of deal. Thus the God-Eaters...
I don't think the Bazaar itself agreed with the whole thing ‒ but apparently it was powerless to do anything against it.*** The Bazaar was probably as fond of the 2nd City as the Masters despised it. When you take the air at the Sundered Sea, you'll see melancholy flashbacks of 2nd City memories. Also, stones from the Salt Lions ‒ an obvious 2nd City relic ‒ are very precious to the Bazaar. I think the Bazaar still sees the 2nd City as the best time it had down here.
The Third City was probably a nightmare for the Bazaar. Love stories? Not a great lot, I'd wager; at least not the pleasant kind. I don't believe the inhabitants of the 3rd City changed their way of life, or the structure of their society, after they Fell ‒ especially considering how the deal was sealed to begin with. Just the opposite: what could be more motivating for a warrior society than knowing even Death is not necessarily the end of fighting? There seems to have been a war between Tomb-Colonies, even (maybe there still is). No, their time in the Neath was probably filled with warfare, both internacine and outward-reaching, constantly urged on by the mad, power-driven God-Eaters... but war is always good business, so the Masters were probably happy.
*** There's another hint to this peculiar powerlessness in The Seventh Letter, where (as I understand it) the Bazaar makes it clear that it does not like Veils' "hobby" but is unable to stop him ‒ "I owe him his hunts." All this is probably down to the original contract between the Bazaar and the Masters, which must have been a particularly mean one, with no way out for either party: the Bazaar and the Masters are chained to each other... until the contract is fulfilled.
I'd like to add that for me the moment of the 3rd City's Fall ‒ and the 2nd City's destruction ‒ is the most tragic in Neathy history. I realized a while ago that it would provide the perfect ‒ and only at least half-way reasonable ‒ motivation for my Seeker, Dr Kvirkvelia, an archaeologist. In his words:
"I bet there were centuries ‒ long centuries ‒ when she must've thought it was all worth it. Maybe she still does; her city was the only one that really prospered down here. It would still be here today, if not for the Betrayal [...] It must've been a sight, ruled by the Pharaoh's Daughter and her Court of Cats. But the three Betrayers had hungers which needed to be sated. Eventually, they found three others with similar hungers, on the Surface. A deal was struck, a trap was laid, the God-Eaters feasted, and a Third City came crashing through the Roof, smothering the beautiful old city to dust [...] I'm not such a fool as to believe I can bring it back; this is only about revenge. One that has been postponed for far too long."
--
Rupho Schartenhauer has killed a Master, well: most of it.
Cortez the Killer has killed a Master, definitely.
Deepdelver has become the progenitor of London's brightest star. It's... complicated.
Dr. Kvirkvelia, gone NORTH on 23/12/1894.
|
|
|
+7
link
|
suinicide
Posts: 2409
1/18/2017
|
Possible problem: Fires doesn't show up in any destinies, even the ones about masters. Perhaps he liked london a bit too much.
--
http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/profile/sunnytime
A gentleman seeking the liberation of knowledge, with a penchant for violence.
RIP suinicide, stuck in a well. Still has it under control.
|
|
|
+7
link
|
Aberrant Eremite
Posts: 362
3/3/2017
|
At first I got the impression that the Bazaar had hired the Masters specifically on a contract to get her out of her current mess - "just seven cities, and then we're done." But the Rubbery timeline suggests that the Masters cut a deal with the Flukes someplace very far away before the Bazaar arrived to the Neath. So maybe they were part of her retinue already? You wouldn't expect a person of importance to travel alone without any servants, and the Stone Pigs don't count.
About their payment, I think that we don't know enough about the Masters to know what the Bazaar could have promised them. I do think that those promises have a physical form. The Numismatrix mentioned that the really original currency of the Bazaar was a very special kind of coin. She says something like, "I've never seen one, but I understand that there are only a dozen or so, and the Masters won't touch them. Interesting, yes?" So my guess is that she's talking about the payments that were originally promised to the Masters, one for each of them, and they can't touch them until the deal is fulfilled.
I think that thousands of years is a long time for the Masters. They probably expected the whole seven-city business to take a millennium or two, which to them is a long-term contract but reasonable for the reward they were promised. But they got stuck in the Second City for much longer than they expected, and they're still bitter about it. Some of them are getting impatient and want to drop Paris on our heads in just a couple of decades, just to get this over with.
Here's a question I've been wondering about: would the Bazaar's promise be technically (if ironically) fulfilled if all the Masters ended up down a well?
Kindelwyrm wrote:
Especially interested in Rupho Schutenhauer's version of events, and Longes's write-ups.
Sadly, I don't have terribly much to add, but wasn't the promise: "All shall be well, and all manner of thing shall be well"? It does seem to feature pretty prominently in the Mr Eaten story line, or at least this part of it. Though I've often wondered what exactly it's supposed to mean. We know from Fate-Locked Content that the Masters measure age by Earth centuries; but even for them thousands of years seems an enormous amount of time to sign oneself away for.
So what, exactly, did the Bazaar promise them? Or did it simply invoke something from before?
edited by Kindelwyrm on 3/3/2017
--
Hieronymus Drake: Gentleman scholar, big-game hunter, scar-faced aristocrat. Remarkably sane, all things considered.
Tanith Wyrmwood: Longshanks cat-burglar; Bohemian author; now, perhaps, something more. Bubbly, expressive, and affectionate. It’s not only still waters that run deep.
Telemachia Lee: Gentle lady by birth, brawling Docker by choice. Good company in the drunk tank.
|
|
|
+5
link
|
Barse
Posts: 706
1/12/2017
|
It's mentioned on the Order Serpentine medals that the Fingerkings made a deal with the "grumpiest bee" and that some form of honey with properties of passage between worlds was created as a result of this.
--
 The Scorched Sailor, up for most social actions and RP. Not as scary as he looks.
|
|
|
+5
link
|
Akninirith Rhaagmini
Posts: 11
10/19/2016
|
This seems like a very worthwhile thread to preserve and document, and a good place to compile what is known about arguably the most influential entities in introducing Fallen London from old London's ashes.
Given the conversion description as well as the central importance of topic material, further warning on material that people MAY NOT WANT TO SEE strikes one as entirely superfluous. Nevertheless: the following likely contains much that you MAY NOT WANT TO SEE.
Regarding the Masters:
Sara Hysaro's explanation seems quite succinct and sufficient for many purposes. Consider the collective information presented by this admirable scholar as correct in all its material content to the best of my own knowledge. A slightly wider scope, touching on common knowledge for most Fallen Londoners, can hopefully be offered by coupling this with the other data kept here.
The Masters are supremely secretive, which makes discerning much of value about them a great challenge.
They are humanoid or at least capable of emulating a facsimile of humanity, but almost certainly not human in the usual sense of the word, as suggested by their unusual height and atypical manners. A further personal assumption is that they are homogeneous in kind, if not species.
Since they have been around since the beginning of the Bazaar's residence in the stolen cities of humanity, they possess at least what the author considers "weak immortality" - that is, immunity from death by the normal aging process of most biology. Possible but personally dismissed as vanishingly unlikely is the idea that they were ONCE human and were changed in nature by the greater powers of the universe, most likely the Bazaar itself or the Judgements. They are distinctly limited in knowledge and power, and their plans can be frustrated by the careful plotting of Fallen Londoners with sufficient acumen and resources.
Both the Masters and the Bazaar itself jealously seek expressions of human love (particularly romantic love), whether in written form or in representations of sentimental value.
The Masters are, at least in present Fallen London, expert in the arts of social manipulation and quite knowledgeable concerning the motivations of human beings. They appear to have some code of honour or at least practical decency, but in a supremely diminished occupation - currying gratitude with them is a protracted affair which will demand a hugely disproportionate amount of time and effort. Their personal estates are used to further their individual influences, and (on a... curious number of occasions) thwart the designs of select members of their peers. The Masters' internal politicking has room for both direct conflict - such as between Mr. Fires and Mr. Stones - as well as alliances. One of the natural results of the scope of their somewhat nebulous ambitions is that their day-to-day motivations prove difficult to untangle at the best of times, and not infrequently contain apparent contradictions of character.
There is a clear correlation between the Bazaar and its attendant Masters, and the symbol system known to many as the Correspondence. While this relationship is still unclear in nature, the Masters are known to be supremely fluent in the use of the Correspondence, and some investigation into the Masters' machinations reveals that they even use it for the relatively mundane task of relaying messages between themselves.
Through a personal desire to bring down that demi-cryptid known as the Vake, contact with the peculiar martial and ecclesiastical community of the Sisterhood has been established in the past. In discussion with their number, the suspicion that the Vake is in fact one of the Masters' number was lent considerable credence. The... ahem, "Mother Belligerent" of the order at one point expressed uttermost frustration, condemning the Vake as a "P--" before pure ire caused her to fall silent. Based on this, the assumed homogeneity of the Masters, and an outstanding personal obsession with mirrors and all that lies behind them, the author posits that some might consider the Masters to be Parabolans. This is purest conjecture.
Regarding the Bazaar:
The Bazaar is an entity or aggregate of entities working in concert that warps the world around it in ways thought impossible by traditional understanding of logic, mathematics, physics, etc. This includes alteration to the geography of London on a somewhat regular basis, but may likewise be the cause of numerous other oddities of the Neath such as the extraordinary resistance to true death exhibited by its inhabitants - this in particular is known to cease affecting Neathy persons if they should migrate to the surface, away from the Bazaar's influence.
One of the most distinctive features of the Bazaar is that its black spires are decorated with a significant amount of the Correspondence's script.
The Bazaar's arrival on Earth (and possibly its capacity to "steal" the cities which have fallen through history) are at least in part facilitated by the "Stone Pigs", which are its engines, or steeds, or couriers, or possibly something not quite represented by any of those terms. These creatures are unambiguously physical presences, and have been encountered under London itself by those brave or foolish enough to descend even below a fallen city.
While the Bazaar is known to be a personality distinct from the Masters, it does not interact with those of Fallen London as directly as its Masters do. This introduces ambiguity to the ultimate source of many peculiar edicts of the Masters; some of their actions are clearly taken on their own behalf, such as Mr. Fires' constant persecution of anything remotely unionized. However, the many odd taxes and prohibitions of the Bazaar's economy are almost certainly a result of the Bazaar's own directives, given their near universal enforcement by the Masters.
Rumor has it that the being known to zailors as Stone and to most others as the Mountain of Light is a child of the Bazaar. This poses some very interesting questions, but also suggests that many of the unusual phenomena of the region known as the Presbyterate - often attributed to the influence of the Mountain of Light - arise due to qualitatively similar forces to those exercised by the Bazaar itself.
Should anything of substance be found in addition to or contradiction of the above, those possessing information of interest are requested to provide whatever possible input they feel appropriate. Likewise, the author will provide further data when appropriate and possible.
--
Search that you might find.
Hope that you might understand.
Sleep that you might dream.
|
|
|
+3
link
|
Sara Hysaro
Moderator
Posts: 4514
2/3/2016
|
They are masters of what they trade in, and are ultimately in charge of the city they're in at the time. They're definitely not in a position of power over the Bazaar, though the Bazaar does need them to do the job they've been given and they've been growing tired of the whole mess.
--
http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Sara%20Hysaro
Please do not send SMEN, cat boxes, or Affluent Reporter requests. All other social actions are welcome.
Are you a Scarlet Saint? Send a message my way to be added to the list.
|
|
|
+3
link
|
Pyrodinium
Posts: 639
2/3/2016
|
Nanako wrote:
Pyrodinium wrote:
It isn't a ship but it does have a weird propulsion thingy.
I think the quote from Sunless Sea said that the bazaar uses the stone pigs to travel between the stars
That and, being a building that can be entered, surely qualifies it as a ship, no?
What you're entering is a "hat". In fact, the entire city is a hat. The fact that its pool of emo tears seems to look like a sea makes it really huge. Pyro, through his ambition, has entered deeper into the Bazaar. Trust me, it isn't designed for crews, batty or human.
I'm not sure if you can call it a ship (that's quite a simplification, kinda like calling this a ship). I haven't heard of a ship that is alive and with living animals attached to it.
--
My profiles: http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Pyrodinium
(A Monster hunter on the hunt of his twin brother's killer. Overprotective dad of his twin's daughter)
http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Rudolph~of~Taured
(an indeterminate person of potentially rubbery lineage)
* All social actions except photographers and loitering welcome!
|
|
|
+3
link
|
Sara Hysaro
Moderator
Posts: 4514
2/3/2016
|
The Bazaar is not merely a ship - it is a living organism with its own feelings and agendas. It wants the love stories to help with the situation it is in, and the Masters are stuck helping it for the time being.
Edit: Oops, post shuffle. Anyway, it's in trouble because it loves and had an offspring with the Sun, a higher being on the chain. It has 7 Cities to provide proof that this can be permitted, otherwise I'm pretty sure it'll be killed.
--
edited by Sara Hysaro on 2/3/2016
--
http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Sara%20Hysaro
Please do not send SMEN, cat boxes, or Affluent Reporter requests. All other social actions are welcome.
Are you a Scarlet Saint? Send a message my way to be added to the list.
|
|
|
+2
link
|
Pyrodinium
Posts: 639
2/3/2016
|
It isn't a ship but it does have a weird propulsion thingy. You might brush against one in one of the Fate stories.
As Sara said, it has a more er... sentimental use for the stories. I don't think there's lore that says it eats anything. Maybe it doesn't need to.
--
My profiles: http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Pyrodinium
(A Monster hunter on the hunt of his twin brother's killer. Overprotective dad of his twin's daughter)
http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Rudolph~of~Taured
(an indeterminate person of potentially rubbery lineage)
* All social actions except photographers and loitering welcome!
|
|
|
+2
link
|
sosisqua
Posts: 120
10/19/2016
|
A Space Crab and Space Bats. Dat's it.
--
http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Sosisqua%20Sardelqua
http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Lazy%20Citizen is LOITERING with everyone.
"Through the gate of North, as we make our way to Mr.Candle"
|
|
|
+2
link
|
Cthonius
Posts: 362
3/6/2017
|
A few things, the coins the Numismatrix mentions are specifically First City coins, original ones. Most of the coins in circulation now are copies.
As for all shall be well. That's a fun one. Most direct answer is what's been stated: presumably it has more nuance in correspondence. It's possible the Masters were in similarly dire straights and this promise would hold further significance. Beyond that it creates a Jesus parallel with the Bazaar.
I love sharing this trivia. So it's irl a quote from a late 14th century English book written by the anchoress Julian of Norwich (an anchoress? Where has that term appeared before in Fallen London?), writing of her visions of Jesus she had during a deathly fever, one she miraculously survived. One vision has her, iirc, seeing all the misfortunes the world faces and asking him why not just remove suffering, why must people suffer? His reply is that "All shall be well and all manner of thing shall be well." Not a helpful explanation for a promise but thems the breaks.
--
Cthonius, gone North. Gone.
Oneiropompus, a Scarlet Saint, eager to help make your dreams realities. Accepting all social requests for now.
|
|
|
+2
link
|
Longes
Posts: 29
1/19/2017
|
Rupho Schartenhauer wrote:
What's wrong with Mr Spices?
You've probably noticed: Mr Spices fills the role of nervous, fidgeting paranoid amoung the Masters. Even its voice is a panicked shrill. Why is that? I think it's afraid. Afraid of being "the next Eaten".
It is my theory that Masters have been sacrificed ‒ or "lost", or "usurped" maybe ‒ twice before (on other planets). When that happened, one of the others took over their role and personality. Thus Apples/Hearts and Cups/Mirrors. Maybe this is due to the original contract between the Bazaar and them requiring the number of 12 Masters, I don't know. Only, when Candles was sacrificed, something went wrong: there were two Masters interested in taking over its role: Wines and Spices. Apparently, there was no way to settle the dispute ‒ and now we're stuck with only 11 Masters, two of them in eternal opposition over who rules Dreams. While Wines seems to have some allies among the other Masters ‒ plus is apparently solely responsible for negotiating the contracts for new cities*** ‒ Spices appears to be isolated. It would probably be the one all the others could agree on being replaceable, in the event of such a replacement being necessary.
My theory is that 12 Masters are needed somehow for travelling Between Stars. Meaning there's no real hurry right now, but they will definitely have to increase their ranks again before leaving Earth behind.
*** Why Wines, anyway? Only because it's the one Master humans find most easy to get along with due to its friendly façade? I've said it before somewhere that of all the Masters (maybe excluding Veils), Wines is the one I like the least. It's like the prototypical suave movie villain: smalltalking you over a good drink while behind the scenes everything is being prepared for your gruesome murder later on. There are only two things Wines ever cares about: Power, and Having a Good Time. In that order; don't let its jocular manner deceive you.
I don't agree with this interpretation. Consider the text in the Lighthouse. Mr. Candles knew that he will be betrayed, he is described as "alone" and "infertile" and "deficient". Furthermore, the Lighthouse has this part:
Here he once stood, on the border between Parabola and the Wilderness, to look out across his wounded realm.
Furthermore, Mr. Candles is the Drowned Man. "He is not a god. He came from the North, where it is too cold for gods, and to the North he will return. If you go North, nothing of you will remain."
What I believe all of this adds up to is that Mr. Candles was in some way tied to the Parabola, much more strongly than Spices and Wines are. Perhaps he was a Parabolan native, or a result of a cross-world affair. In combination with the lore elements from Cathedral of Light, Mr. Eaten's favorable perspective on humanity, and various asspulls made in my headcanon, I believe that Mr. Candles is a messianic figure a la Jesus. I can elaborate further if needed.
Getting back to the question of Mr. Spices, I think he's afraid of Mr. Eaten. Maybe, just maybe, Mr. Wines and Mr. Spices are feeling Unaccountably Peckish, leading to Wines drowning himself in hedonism. Maybe, just maybe, Mr. Spices hears a voice in his dreams and that voice makes him feel very guilty and very scared.
|
|
|
+2
link
|
Longes
Posts: 29
1/13/2017
|
al2o3cr wrote:
Another possible Parabolan alliance I've always wondered about: the God-Eaters are depicted as corresponding to three sorts of animals common in the Mirror Marches (cats, birds, and snakes). It's strongly hinted that the daughters of the Second City somehow nerfed the Masters for quite a while, until they negotiated the sale of a certain delectable morsel. Both the God-Eaters and the Fingerkings have the same habit of taking the bodies of people for joyrides (see also the Genial Magician and the Fidgeting Writer). What if the fall of the Third City somehow involved powerful critters from Parabola?
That would explain the occasional mentions of "the times when we covered the mirrors" in some scraps of Fourth City history; having your erstwhile allies drop another city on top of the one you stole for them can't be good for diplomatic relations.
From what I understood, the delay of the Second City involved the pharaoh's daughters evacuating the city right before it got fell, resulting in the Bazaar getting a nearly empty city that produced no love stories.
The Fourth City stuff most certainly refers to the war between the Fourth City and the Fingerkings. From the Gallery of Serpents expedition we learn that Fourth City had such war, won and imprisoned some Fingerkings in statues.
|
|
|
+2
link
|
Aberrant Eremite
Posts: 362
3/6/2017
|
I respectfully disagree about the coins. Here's the Numismatrix's text:
"Coins. You wish me to discuss coins. Very well. Echoes first. The ones you have in your purse are indeed echoes. Reflections of the first currency ever used by the Bazaar. Before it even thought about buying cities. You'll probably never see any of the underlying fundamental Coins. I never have. There's only around a dozen of them, I've heard, and the Masters won't touch them. Fascinating, no?
"Something different now. Have you heard of the First City Coins? Little silver things, cedar tree on one side. I deal in them occasionally. They're not from the First City itself, of course. The actual coins are no more than thirty years old. But they represent something ancient. Fragments of a primal power, locked away in the Masters' vaults since the deal that bought the First City. Of course, the Masters don't buy or sell that stuff any more. They gamble it sometimes, though. A game called the Marvellous.
My reading is that the "something different now" transition indicates that First City Coins - even the "real" ones used in the Marvellous - are different from "the first currency ever used by the Bazaar," of which our Echoes are only reflections. It's this "first currency" I was talking about - the Coins which even the Numismatrix has never seen, which the Masters won't touch, and the number of which may match the original number of Masters (and yes, also the original number of Apostles). Since it's the first, it must antedate the First City - and the transaction in which the Masters were hired presumably does as well.
I'm not arguing that a particular future is certain, nor even likely, just a possible one. One that could only come about if Londoners' understanding of the world became as weighty as the Masters'. I am sorely tempted to write it up myself, though.
Cthonius wrote:
A few things, the coins the Numismatrix mentions are specifically First City coins, original ones. Most of the coins in circulation now are copies.
As for all shall be well. That's a fun one. Most direct answer is what's been stated: presumably it has more nuance in correspondence. It's possible the Masters were in similarly dire straights and this promise would hold further significance. Beyond that it creates a Jesus parallel with the Bazaar.
I love sharing this trivia. So it's irl a quote from a late 14th century English book written by the anchoress Julian of Norwich (an anchoress? Where has that term appeared before in Fallen London?), writing of her visions of Jesus she had during a deathly fever, one she miraculously survived. One vision has her, iirc, seeing all the misfortunes the world faces and asking him why not just remove suffering, why must people suffer? His reply is that "All shall be well and all manner of thing shall be well." Not a helpful explanation for a promise but thems the breaks.
--
Hieronymus Drake: Gentleman scholar, big-game hunter, scar-faced aristocrat. Remarkably sane, all things considered.
Tanith Wyrmwood: Longshanks cat-burglar; Bohemian author; now, perhaps, something more. Bubbly, expressive, and affectionate. It’s not only still waters that run deep.
Telemachia Lee: Gentle lady by birth, brawling Docker by choice. Good company in the drunk tank.
|
|
|
+1
link
|
Akninirith Rhaagmini
Posts: 11
3/29/2017
|
On the subject of the variably honourable space-bat friends in the Bazaar and their interest in the extremely arcane finances of the universe:
The Masters have been running the Bazaar in the name of maintaining an economy of romantic tales for basically forever as far as poor human creatures are pragmatically concerned. As the good persons of London have previously stated, the Coins which are held so precious by the Masters may not be literal minted currency. It sounds as though said Coins may be, as "fragments of a primal power," something akin to portions of a Judgement or a remnant of some other profound High Wilderness entity.
However - the Bazaar has quite emphatically supported a trade in souls and thereby instituted a singularly unusual substitute for bullion. Is it possible (not LIKELY, but possible) that the Masters may have bartered their own souls away in the distant past, and the Coins which they so desperately value are either credit for or some representation of their surrendered souls? Despite the fact that the known facets of the Masters' characters are universally suggestive of creatures who would be interested in Faustian deals, they (and their culture) also exhibit profound self-interest that would almost certainly lead them to seek out and regain such unique belongings as their own souls.
--
Search that you might find.
Hope that you might understand.
Sleep that you might dream.
|
|
|
+1
link
|
Reshemin
Posts: 226
10/19/2016
|
Well, if you put it this way, I might also add it's really all just about a bunch of hairless monkeys with top hats...
Of course, there might be the slight possibility that this approach might be guilty of overly... simplifying the matter 
|
|
|
+1
link
|
Akninirith Rhaagmini
Posts: 11
1/13/2017
|
What suinicide has mentioned actually brings up an interesting inquiry - does the Nadir's forgetting affect time/events/people at a consistent and homogeneous rate? Specifically, several aspects of the Fourth City's history are clearly preserved in the Nadir's curious stagnation, and (from what the writer sees of its preservation of history) it appears that less of a memory is preserved of the First City than the Fourth City, for example. Is it in the Nadir's nature that something from as relatively recent a time as the Fourth City could be as apparently forgotten as the Rosers?
Certainly suinicide's reasoning that a (human?) Fourth City affiliation with the Fingerkings would incite conflict with the Masters is sound, but historical precedent for a Neathy-Parabolan alliance of such a nature is entirely news to me. It would fit with the colour of character in a city-state fractious enough to bifurcate despite being in the very middle of the Unterzee, though.
--
Search that you might find.
Hope that you might understand.
Sleep that you might dream.
|
|
|
+1
link
|
Passionario
Posts: 777
1/13/2017
|
Corrolary to my signature: if you're neither flame nor fuel, you're the engine coolant.
--
Passionario: Profile, Story, Ending
Passion: Profile, Appearance
|
|
|
+1
link
|
Akninirith Rhaagmini
Posts: 11
11/19/2016
|
The good Kyron the Wise has proven very worthy of the title indeed.
An additional concern that has slowly coalesced, though: the Bazaar was once a vessel whose goal consisted of ensuring there was NO WORD LOST... in possibly several senses. Is the Bazaar a unique being in the High Wilderness, a one-of-a-kind species of entity? Do the Judgements rely upon other varieties of Couriers in its absence? If not, then what plan have the Judgements for their own future welfare if the Bazaar is extinguished?
Hell has clearly asked some of these kinds of questions throughout history, but as of yet the author does not know what answers they may have found.
--
Search that you might find.
Hope that you might understand.
Sleep that you might dream.
|
|
|
+1
link
|
TheThirdPolice
Posts: 609
11/22/2016
|
An interesting thought. Do beings become more diverse as one travels down the Chain? Or is it only difficult to determine difference from the distance of our diminution?
In other words, is the Chain:
The Nigh Unanimous Council of Stars
The Dutiful Dragons of Justice
The Various Crustaceous Messengers
The Infinite Variety of Scuttlers Upon Earths
Or does the size and scalding bright of Aldebaran correspond to a more fundamental difference between it and our own Sun, secreted or indistinguishable from our vantage in the mud?
--
Excessive Corpse & Tender to Irreal Ravens
Lover of Flawed Souls
And with especial pride, Worst Screwup of the Decade!
|
|
|
+1
link
|
Akninirith Rhaagmini
Posts: 11
1/12/2017
|
A few moderately worthwhile musings, perhaps. Following the lines of inquiry presented by Kyron the Wise, a tad more digging into some of the Masters' motivations for aiding the Bazaar was undertaken.
Foremost, THIS: http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Eihks?fromEchoId=10560434
The Khans mentioned are clearly the Masters - the Khan of Dreams, Mr. Wines; the Khan of Swords, Mr. Iron; the Khan of Fires, Mr. Fire; the Khan of Hearts, Mr. Hearts; the Khan of Roots, Mr. Apples; the Khan of Drums, Mr. Veils. However, it also mentions that they have several foes that include the Rosers, the Copper, and the Motherlings. The latter two are largely mysteries to the writer, though others may garner further significance from their identities. The Rosers, on the other hand, are recognized as an apparently long-departed party from the politics of the Bazaar's lifetime. In fact, their departure is considered a long past occurrence even in the Cave of the Nadir, which means that they must have left an exceptionally distant time ago. However, it is unknown whether this is before or after the Bazaar first made Earth its temporary haven.
Now, another thing: http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Eihks?fromEchoId=10787874
This occurred when the writer unwisely slept in the Nadir's influence wearing a Parabola-linen suit. At the risk of sounding somewhat fanatical about Parabolan studies, the writer infers that the Menagerie of Roses - here interpreted to be an alias of the Rosers - are Parabolan natives.
If this is all true, it tells us several things. First, a very long time ago marked a conflict of unknown duration between the Masters and at least some residents of Parabola. Second, the Masters either fashioned some kind of martial victory with these enemies, or managed to escape their attentions until this conflict ceased; the fact that the Rosers are known in the Nadir (and as such were probably active for some time until the Masters were encompassed by the Nadir's obscuring effects) leads one to assume the latter is more likely. The enmity toward red honey that the Masters exhibit may be somehow linked to the Rosers, given that plain prisoner's honey is refined from the Exile's Rose and that the Menagerie of Roses boasts "dreamers", but as speculation and no more should this thought be classified.
In addition, something with which perhaps some other, more astute Fallen Londoner, can assist, as I do not have an echo on record which precisely matches the remembered information. For the moment, THESE altercations with Mr. Sacks and Penstock are the closest qualitative matches in my own archives: http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Eihks?fromEchoId=10746057 http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Eihks?fromEchoId=10746093
Unfortunately, memory and memory alone serves to claim that one can find a statement while helping the... ahem, VENERABLE Mr. Sacks to the effect that the Bazaar has begun to produce her own stories. If this is, in fact, true, assistance in the form of providing an echo of such an interaction would be invaluable for peace of mind and preserving informational integrity. Further speculation on this particular point will be withheld until confirmation or denial of this topic's veracity appears.
--
Search that you might find.
Hope that you might understand.
Sleep that you might dream.
|
|
|
+1
link
|
Pyrodinium
Posts: 639
2/3/2016
|
Nanako wrote:
Sara Hysaro wrote:
The Bazaar is not merely a ship - it is a living organism with its own feelings and agendas. It wants the love stories to help with the situation it is in, and the Masters are stuck helping it for the time being.
and another thought. Is the title Masters of the Bazaar really accurate? it seems like they're the servants, not the masters. Do they hold influence over it? control it, or hold it to ransom somehow ?
Master as in dominion on one of the Bazaar's trades so more like Ministers of Public Decency, Minister of Liquors etc. or Master as in the origin of the word Mister.
The Bazaar gave them some promise in return for their work. No idea what they get from it though. I think they just do stuff for London's upkeep and other "recreational" projects.
--
My profiles: http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Pyrodinium
(A Monster hunter on the hunt of his twin brother's killer. Overprotective dad of his twin's daughter)
http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Rudolph~of~Taured
(an indeterminate person of potentially rubbery lineage)
* All social actions except photographers and loitering welcome!
|
|
|
+1
link
|
Sara Hysaro
Moderator
Posts: 4514
2/3/2016
|
I'm not 100% sure, to be honest. If it stays basically the same way it is now when it flies off into space then I'm sure there's a way to ride it like a ship (though the Bazaar would also be the captain), but I believe in the Chill of the Void destinies the Masters are following the Bazaar, not riding within it. They don't need to worry about oxygen, though, so maybe they just don't want to be cooped up after finally leaving the planet.
--
http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Sara%20Hysaro
Please do not send SMEN, cat boxes, or Affluent Reporter requests. All other social actions are welcome.
Are you a Scarlet Saint? Send a message my way to be added to the list.
|
|
|
+1
link
|
Pyrodinium
Posts: 639
2/3/2016
|
Sara Hysaro wrote:
I'm not 100% sure, to be honest. If it stays basically the same way it is now when it flies off into space then I'm sure there's a way to ride it like a ship (though the Bazaar would also be the captain), but I believe in the Chill of the Void destinies the Masters are following the Bazaar, not riding within it. They don't need to worry about oxygen, though, so maybe they just don't want to be cooped up after finally leaving the planet.
Sara, I think the Masters ride the Ether (which doesn't exist IRL by the way) like Lovecraft's Elder Ones so they don't really need to ride the Bazaar. Let's just say that they have "wings"
--
My profiles: http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Pyrodinium
(A Monster hunter on the hunt of his twin brother's killer. Overprotective dad of his twin's daughter)
http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Rudolph~of~Taured
(an indeterminate person of potentially rubbery lineage)
* All social actions except photographers and loitering welcome!
|
|
|
+1
link
|
Sara Hysaro
Moderator
Posts: 4514
2/3/2016
|
Oh, I know they can fly through space on their own.  I just wasn't sure whether the Bazaar can be ridden in general after it takes off.
--
edited by Sara Hysaro on 2/3/2016
--
http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Sara%20Hysaro
Please do not send SMEN, cat boxes, or Affluent Reporter requests. All other social actions are welcome.
Are you a Scarlet Saint? Send a message my way to be added to the list.
|
|
|
+1
link
|
genesis
Posts: 924
2/3/2016
|
It's an organic living space probe. Whether it's a ship is somewhat a matter of interpretation - but, personally, I would say that a ship has to be a) constructed/manufactured b) for purposes of transport. I don't believe we have much convincing evidence that it is either "made" or that it's purpose is transport (in fact we know that it's primary purpose is information delivery, not cargo/crew transport)
--
http://fallenlondon.com/Profile/mikey_thinkin
Keeping track of incomplete content and loose ends in Fallen London
|
|
|
+1
link
|
loredeluxe
Posts: 106
2/4/2016
|
If we're talking about what the Masters get out of this whole situation, I always assumed the Bazaar promised them they could drain the fallen cities of whatever resources they want in exchange for helping it collect love stories. They've apparently grown quite tired of this arrangement and are trying to get through the seven cities as fast as possible considering there is increasingly smaller spans of time between each of the falls. Frankly, at this point, we shouldn't be worried about the nature of the Masters and the Bazaar so much as finding them the love story they want so they won't drop Paris on us and turn us all into lacre.
|
|
|
+1
link
|
Pyrodinium
Posts: 639
2/4/2016
|
loredeluxe wrote:
If we're talking about what the Masters get out of this whole situation, I always assumed the Bazaar promised them they could drain the fallen cities of whatever resources they want in exchange for helping it collect love stories. They've apparently grown quite tired of this arrangement and are trying to get through the seven cities as fast as possible considering there is increasingly smaller spans of time between each of the falls. Frankly, at this point, we shouldn't be worried about the nature of the Masters and the Bazaar so much as finding them the love story they want so they won't drop Paris on us and turn us all into lacre.
I respectfully disagree with resources angle
[spoiler]
given that the High Wilderness have more exotic resources compared with the Neath. There's a Judgement that is basically a giant Fabulous Diamond (Mr. Stones). There's also a huge amount of space booze (10 billion, billion, billion litres of methanol and ethanol is kinda enough for Mr. Wines IMO).
Perhaps they have more sentimental reasons on why they're here?
[/spoiler]
--
My profiles: http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Pyrodinium
(A Monster hunter on the hunt of his twin brother's killer. Overprotective dad of his twin's daughter)
http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Rudolph~of~Taured
(an indeterminate person of potentially rubbery lineage)
* All social actions except photographers and loitering welcome!
|
|
|
+1
link
|
Sara Hysaro
Moderator
Posts: 4514
2/4/2016
|
Whatever the promise is has yet to be fulfilled in the Chill of the Void destinies, so it's probably not the opportunity to loot seven cities for all they're worth. Might be some sort of freedom or power - I'd personally guess the former. The Masters dream of a time before love and the time before names. I could be very off base, though.
--
http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Sara%20Hysaro
Please do not send SMEN, cat boxes, or Affluent Reporter requests. All other social actions are welcome.
Are you a Scarlet Saint? Send a message my way to be added to the list.
|
|
|
+1
link
|