Ian Hart
Posts: 437
5/11/2016
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TheThirdPolice wrote:
Unfortunately I didn't screenshot any of Waltz, so I've just gone on a tangent rereading Flint instead.
I don't think it's possible for the protagonist to be the Thief of Faces:
* I cannot think of any implication that the Thief is ever unaware of his identity. He seems to keep his motivations in any form.
* You meet many characters on the lookout for the Thief, and none of them suspect you. Snuffers identify you as human. The Pilgrim-Wakers think the Thief follows you, but only on one of your meetings — so that doesn't seem like a clue.
* It seems unlikely that the Thief has a soul, let alone one unrecognized by devils.
* Going meta, this storytelling decision would repel many players.
On the other hand, it is fun to speculate:
* A handwavy explanation about the Thief possessing people rather than imitating them could remove some of the objections above.
* Alternatively, we could read willfully too much into the Thief changing its "self" as well as its shape.
* The Art of Murder ending makes more sense if you're the Thief. (The ritual succeeds.)
* The player recognizes part of the Thief of Face ritual map in Art of Murder, for no clear reason.
* The player's face can change in Unwell Flint. This follows a draught supposedly similar to cherty griswine... but it doesn't seem so. The Thiefy revelations could be memories.
I absolutely agree with the meta argument that it's doubtful the player will have to turn out to be the thief of faces, but there is a theory my friend and I came up with a while back that the Thief could be the player. There is a process, one pursued by the Bishop and in Sunless Sea, by which a greater entity can become a lesser one. If the Thief of Faces wanted to stop hating everyone and everything, that is, if he hates what he is, one route would be to follow that process and become a human, perhaps absorbing some memories of a person in New Newgate and replacing them. Obviously the process would make him much much weaker (explaining your starting stats) but in many ways it would be the best of both worlds, hiding him from those who pursue him, allowing him to live without hating everything, but also being better than any normal human in a number of ways (such as the player's stubborn inability to permanently die or go insane, and their incredible growth over a relatively short period of time.) I could go into more detail, but I don't think it's really a relevant topic to this thread, since a twist like that would have to be in a far broader piece of content.
Edit: Apologies for the double post, my previous post was written before TheThirdPolice's post appeared.
edited by Ian Hart on 5/11/2016
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James Sinclair
Posts: 253
5/11/2016
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Ian Hart wrote:
There is a lot of speculation out there about him, and I desperately want to know more if anyone has anything.
(spoilers for Sunless Sea)
The Old Man in Vienna appears in Sunless Sea; you can interact with him by travelling up the Cumean Canal and taking a train to Vienna. An additional storylet becomes available in Vienna if you're made it past a certain point in the Ambition to travel East.
He seems to be a parallel -- not directly related to, but behaving in a similar capacity -- to a Judgement known as "The White" (who is also mentioned at the Chapel of Lights). Just as the Old Man is a spymaster for the Great Game, the White is a spymaster among the Judgements. The Old Man dispatched the Waltzing Duke to Fallen London, while the White dispatched a judgement (Salt) through the Avid Horizon and into the Neath (presumably to investigate the Bazaar's activities). Both the Duke and Salt have ended up injured by their experiences in the Neath.
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James Sinclair
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 A fully-fledged rêveur of The Night Circus.
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TheThirdPolice
Posts: 609
5/11/2016
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You failed a Google challenge! Persuasive is decreasing...
Other misc. unhelpful thoughts:
I doubt that the Strauss was involved in spycraft, so if there is an inspiration for the Old Man it probably has to do with Vienna's 19th century history of spycraft — which I know nothing about.
I did not realize Woods in Winter was a Longfellow poem. Unless I'm missing something, this is just a thematic connection at most.
Ooh... someone may have killed the Austrian Crown Prince in the Viennese Woods. It's the exact sort of thing I'd look for as the Duke's 'trial to prove himself', except 1889 is way too late. At best this is the "It happened after", and it's probably not relevant at all.
Tales from the Vienna Woods was later turned into a play and films. Doesn't seem too relevant though, except, again, thematically.
Believe it or not I'm actually not including the even less likely finds. :P
Perhaps more useful to stay within the Fallen London world. It sounds like the Old Man is testing many people (presumably young spies), and perhaps sending them to the Neath to worm their way to the vaults of the Bazaar, or to gather secrets such as the Duke found. Do we have any guesses for other agents of the Old Man (the Clathermonts?), or — since we've been spiralling down this well — evidence that the protagonist is an unwitting agent itself?
EDIT: As a side note, I'm voting for "the daughter is not an agent." As others have remarked, it requires too much handwaving to justify some of the endings, especially when she lets the player walk away with the secret.
edited by TheThirdPolice on 5/11/2016
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James Sinclair
Posts: 253
5/11/2016
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TheThirdPolice wrote:
Perhaps more useful to stay within the Fallen London world. It sounds like the Old Man is testing many people (presumably young spies), and perhaps sending them to the Neath to worm their way to the vaults of the Bazaar, or to gather secrets such as the Duke found. Do we have any guesses for other agents of the Old Man (the Clathermonts?), or — since we've been spiralling down this well — evidence that the protagonist is an unwitting agent itself?
It's quite possible. I think the key connection Cash tweeted about may indeed be the 'Woods in Winter' card found in the Nadir. The text for the different storylets on the card suggest to me that the player was sent/manipulated into travelling to London, at the behest of the Old Man.
For example, the minor text differences between the two versions of 'The Dance Goes On' storylet on this card (one available if you've reached Entwined in the Intrigues of the Clathermont Family 30, one if you haven't) suggest that a) the woman you're talking to is Millicent Clathermont, a.k.a. The Lady in Lilac, and b) You received some sort of aid from her regarding your Ambition, aid which was subsequently forgotten thanks to Lilac's irrigomancy.
Furthermore, the Old Man wants, more than anything, to know the secrets of the Bazaar, as seen on the 'Fortune's Page' storylet on the Woods in Winter card. Lilac is privy to some of these secrets, so it makes sense that she is somehow involved with the Old Man.
So perhaps the Old Man orchestrated the player being sent down to the Neath by manipulating their Ambition, with the player either unaware of it or having forgotten it due to irrigo? This would mean that the player's beginnings might be eerily similar to those of the Duke...
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James Sinclair
Curator of the Sanguine Ribbon Society 🗡
A fully-fledged rêveur of The Night Circus.
Wines is red
Spices is yellow
But old Jack-of-Smiles
Is a murderous fellow
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Ian Hart
Posts: 437
5/11/2016
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James Sinclair wrote:
TheThirdPolice wrote:
Perhaps more useful to stay within the Fallen London world. It sounds like the Old Man is testing many people (presumably young spies), and perhaps sending them to the Neath to worm their way to the vaults of the Bazaar, or to gather secrets such as the Duke found. Do we have any guesses for other agents of the Old Man (the Clathermonts?), or — since we've been spiralling down this well — evidence that the protagonist is an unwitting agent itself?
It's quite possible. I think the key connection Cash tweeted about may indeed be the 'Woods in Winter' card found in the Nadir. The text for the different storylets on the card suggest to me that the player was sent/manipulated into travelling to London, at the behest of the Old Man.
For example, the minor text differences between the two versions of 'The Dance Goes On' storylet on this card (one available if you've reached Entwined in the Intrigues of the Clathermont Family 30, one if you haven't) suggest that a) the woman you're talking to is Millicent Clathermont, a.k.a. The Lady in Lilac, and b) You received some sort of aid from her regarding your Ambition, aid which was subsequently forgotten thanks to Lilac's irrigomancy.
Furthermore, the Old Man wants, more than anything, to know the secrets of the Bazaar, as seen on the 'Fortune's Page' storylet on the Woods in Winter card. Lilac is privy to some of these secrets, so it makes sense that she is somehow involved with the Old Man.
So perhaps the Old Man orchestrated the player being sent down to the Neath by manipulating their Ambition, with the player either unaware of it or having forgotten it due to irrigo? This would mean that the player's beginnings might be eerily similar to those of the Duke...
The player's presence in the Neath is certainly a result of manipulation, though at least in the case of Ambition Nemesis, it's by the hand of a higher power than the Old Man.
[spoiler]
As far as the daughter, here is the ending you are referring to. http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Antifinity?fromEchoId=7680603
It strikes me as perfectly in character for a spy who is aware she failed in reaching her goal. In fact, the way she reacts seems to only make sense if she was previously aware of the presence of the secret. If she were truly innocent she should be outraged at your "failure" or she should arrange to pay you for your "success". Instead, she clearly knows that you saw through her deception and claimed the real prize of the entire affair.
You could argue that she would then try to retrieve it from you, but that would be a futile gesture, since a significant part of the secret's value was in no one else knowing it (which is why the Duke had to erase his own memory of it) and of course because the player is a far more dangerous individual than she is.
[/spoiler]
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suinicide
Posts: 2409
5/11/2016
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That doesn't limit us to only one manipulator. Maybe the old man pulled some strings and made sure the player was chosen. Maybe he helped make sure you made it to the neath or would be able to escape New Newgate.
edited by suinicide on 5/11/2016
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A gentleman seeking the liberation of knowledge, with a penchant for violence.
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TheThirdPolice
Posts: 609
5/11/2016
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All these justifications for the daughter-agent's actions aren't obviously wrong, but they're aren't obviously right either. I could just as easily say the daughter is angry because the protagonist took away her chance for revenge. Occam's Razor suggests this is more likely, since it doesn't require any additional speculation on the value of hiding the secret (then why not have you killed?) or the intimidating profile of the protagonist (in a story with no Dangerous requirement, iirc).
edited by TheThirdPolice on 5/11/2016
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Excessive Corpse & Tender to Irreal Ravens
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And with especial pride, Worst Screwup of the Decade!
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Ian Hart
Posts: 437
5/11/2016
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TheThirdPolice wrote:
All these justifications for the daughter-agent's actions aren't obviously wrong, but they're aren't obviously right either. I could just as easily say the daughter is angry because the protagonist took away her chance for revenge. Occam's Razor suggests this is more likely, since it doesn't require any additional speculation on the value of hiding the secret (then why not have you killed?) or the intimidating profile of the protagonist (in a story with no Dangerous requirement, iirc).
edited by TheThirdPolice on 5/11/2016
I think that if she was not an agent, then yes, she would be angry, and she would confront you. She'd ask why you failed to do the one thing she hired you to do. But if she is an agent she would know why, and she would simply be frustrated that she failed, and return to the surface to inform the Old Man. It's not proof she's a spy, but it does go together well with all the evidence, and it explains a major missing piece of the puzzle (who did the Old Man send to bash open the Duke's head and retrieve the secret?)
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Bertrand Leonidas Poole
Posts: 335
5/12/2016
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Speaking of the process undertaken by the Principles of Coral in Sunless Sea:
* Is the zee captain helping the Thief somehow with the whole counterweight thing and the Wakeful Idol? It's a scowling idol of the same sort, isn't it? It seemed to gain something after the captain winning the match.
* ( And I also snickered at the particular type of chess piece the Wakeful Idol is being used for, considering the above.)
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Optimatum
Posts: 3666
5/12/2016
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In that quest the Idol has to be first awakened by the King with a Hundred Hearts, who makes a reference to Stone. I think it's more specifically connected to the Elder Continent and vitality than the Thief.
Lilac is definitely heavily involved with the Great Game. Outside of the Feast of the Exceptional Rose, she spends much of her time on the Surface so would almost certainly have contact with the Old Man.
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Gul al-Ahlaam
Posts: 225
5/12/2016
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I think it might be worth noting that in the first face-tailor story, the Thief of Faces appears to you in a dream in the form of a wakeful idol, and encourages you to kill a bird and trade it for a skin-mask, so you can sneak into the garden. If you choose to obey it, you get a bunch of Fate (more than any other branch on that storylet, or indeed any other Fate-granting story branch in the game, to my knowledge). As I remember this also gives you a unique dialogue option with the Bishop at the beginning of Flint Part 1, though I I never played it.
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The Uncanny Hierophant.
The Jewel-Eyed Prince.
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Ian Hart
Posts: 437
5/16/2016
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Any progress or clues on this? I'd hate to never know for sure.
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Bertrand Leonidas Poole
Posts: 335
5/17/2016
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It's all clear to me now: Archduke Ferdinand is the Thief of Faces.
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maleclypse
Posts: 259
6/26/2016
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Any ideas on the missed detail? I'm trying to decide if I need to replay this a few times after the election ends.
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Maintaining a controlling interest in my soul requires a pretty constant negotiation between the various shareholder interests. Thankfully the Fingerkings 23% control makes a pretty good foil to unite the other factions enough to get to 51%.
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Ian Hart
Posts: 437
6/27/2016
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maleclypse wrote:
Any ideas on the missed detail? I'm trying to decide if I need to replay this a few times after the election ends.
I haven't seen anything suggesting that we have discovered the "right" answer. I'd definitely replay it if I knew that some confirmation was forthcoming, but as is I think we may have found the missed detail (that the daughter was actually an agent of the Old Man.) Do let us know if you see anything new though.
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Shadowcthuhlu
Posts: 1557
6/27/2016
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I am also tempted to replay in the future if the daughter actually being an agent is confirmed.
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https://www.fallenlondon.com/profile/Dirae%20Erinyes. Closed to calling cards, but open for all other social action. I also love to roleplay.
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Televangelist
Posts: 109
8/26/2016
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Hello, friends.
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genesis
Posts: 924
8/29/2016
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maleclypse wrote:
Any ideas on the missed detail? I'm trying to decide if I need to replay this a few times after the election ends.
With all the talk of the Easter egg in the current ES, I wonder if there was something similar here?
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Keeping track of incomplete content and loose ends in Fallen London
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Ian Hart
Posts: 437
8/30/2016
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genesis wrote:
maleclypse wrote:
Any ideas on the missed detail? I'm trying to decide if I need to replay this a few times after the election ends.
With all the talk of the Easter egg in the current ES, I wonder if there was something similar here?
I certainly hope so. If any player or dev would confirm that there is a big bold text THIS PIECE OF CONTENT IS THE EASTER EGG marker hidden in the story somewhere, I'd happily explore it. I'm currently just frustrated at the idea it could be something I've already found or deduced.
edited by Ian Hart on 8/30/2016
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Optimatum
Posts: 3666
8/30/2016
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I don't think it was ever missed content in the story, just a deduction from content already seen which we had not yet made. Who knows if it was made since then.
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Optimatum, a ruthless and merciful gentleman. No plant battles, Affluent Photographer requests, or healing offers; all other social actions welcome.
Want a sip of Cider? Just say hi!
PM me for information enigmatic or Fated. Though the forum please, not FL itself.
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