Kukapetal
Posts: 1449
1/23/2016
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metasynthie wrote:
That's actually the exact reason why a lot of people have criticized Bioshock's morality system as not feeling particularly moral at all, and only self-serving. Knights of the Old Republic has some better examples -- if you want to "be good," you can't prioritize rewards for your self. Being good, in theory (one theory at least) is its own reward.
By the same token, being an unrepentant monster in real life usually ends up costing a person a lot in the long run, even if the short-term rewards are plentiful. Yet there are no consequences for any of the dreadful things you can do in this game. If we're going to drag real life into this, why are we only applying it to one side? If a good deed should be its own reward, why can't a terrible deed come back to bite the guilty party in the rear end? Why is it just the good characters who have to suffer for "realism" while the nasty ones can live fully in a consequence-free fantasyland? Again, it's the one-sidedness that bugs me.
If the morality system is going to be realistic, it should be realistic for everyone. If it's not (and I'd actually prefer this because we're playing a game, which should prioritize fun over realism) then let me have some cool rewards and benefits sometimes too instead of limiting my opportunities, throwing me out of storylets, areas, and exceptional stories (that I PAID for) and giving me crappier rewards overall.
And just in case I'm coming across this way, I'd like to clarify that it doesn't bother me that people can be super awesome while playing nasty characters. I'd just like a chance to be awesome too, even if it's in a different way. That's all.
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Guest
1/24/2016
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In some ways this reminds me of The Force. One path is steady and while not personally profitable, helps others who help you grow in the connections formed. Those who are prudent can call upon those connections and be rewarded from that.
The other way advanced you personally faster for gain and profit, but saps what made you. Perhaps it is not noticeable, but you eventually lose the part (or soul) of you that made you what you were in the first place.
But (at a cost) both paths can further fall to temptation for personal profit. And what profit it is.
In the end, you have to choose what side is best for you and what cost is that going to be. Sometimes, there isn't an analytic outcome to a question.
The "pragmatic" the truthseeker found that out eventually. In some ways, he wishes never to have accepted the emotional decision either.
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Charlotte_de_Witte
Posts: 360
1/24/2016
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Kukapetal wrote:
By the same token, being an unrepentant monster in real life usually ends up costing a person a lot in the long run, even if the short-term rewards are plentiful.
Does it? The oil industry seems have been doing pretty well for a while now... tobacco too I think... 
Are you sure that is not confusing realistic with fair?
Real life is not black and white, which is why I personally don't see the point in morality systems. That is just a game mechanic to make something feel responsive. Sometimes it's fun, sometimes it's plain ridiculous. But it's always artificial.
I think FL does a very good job exploring grey, it doesn't tell you if a decision is good or bad but lets you figure that out for yourself. Personally I think it is all the better for it.
I'm not saying you are wrong about Shepherds. I don't really know, I've not played the story. Maybe the do need a reward boost? Maybe a game should be fairer than real life? But that's a question of game balance not morals. I don't think that would do anything to make things more 'realistic'.
For the choice to matter here I think it's better for it have an actual consequence for the player. Its much more affecting that way, as evidence from people's responses to it. Isn't that why people play FL?
As long as the story someone pays for on both sides of the decision is the same quality/length etc. (which from what I've seen written about the soul trade, it is) then the consequences need not be equal in any other respect.
What I mean is you have, as you say, been awesome. Not because you got a reward for doing so but because you made a real(ish) sacrifice to do the moral thing. You don't pray on the innocent and destitute pulling their souls out violently with a fork and sell them off to vain selfish devils for a few pennies.
If it didn't really matter at all which side someone chose, what would be the point of having a decision?
If a person decides to make that decision on the basis of material reward, I doubt they are going to be able to make a very moral RP choice for their character.
.
edited by Charlotte_de_Witte on 1/24/2016
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"Do one thing for me, Sredni Vashtar."
Social actions welcome. Only, send me dupes if you need help with the Affluent Photographer please, I like the bats! [And boxed kitties, and extreme gardening]- Thank-you!
http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Charlotte%20de%20Witte
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Nanako
Posts: 536
1/24/2016
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Well after reading all these replies, i've decided to go with Spirifier. for reasons of profit, and deeper connectionn with the Brass Embassy
I felt a little bad about it briefly, then i started remembering all the things i've done up until this point, to reach 140 (unmodified) Dangerous
Anne Auclair wrote:
So, role play wise, if your character wants to get close to Devils then he'll need to get comfortable with being underhanded and dealing in souls. .
To be honest, i think it's only the deception i have an issue with. I'd much rather stab someone to death and collect their soul as it floats out.
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Sunless Skies needs engine and speed control mechanics. Have a look at my design proposal for implementing it
http://community.failbettergames.com/topic25687-a-design-for-engines.aspx
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Kukapetal
Posts: 1449
1/24/2016
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Charlotte_de_Witte wrote:
What I mean is you have, as you say, been awesome. Not because you got a reward for doing so but because you made a real(ish) sacrifice to do the moral thing. You don't pray on the innocent and destitute pulling their souls out violently with a fork and sell them off to vain selfish devils for a few pennies.
No I haven't. I've played the same game as everyone else but because of my poor role-playing decisions, I've gotten fewer rewards and been locked out of more content. My only "reward" is knowing I didn't do mean things to imaginary people who can't actually be hurt.
That's not being awesome, that's being an idiot who cheated herself out of a richer playing experience for nothing because she initially assumed the gameplay mechanic would be a bit more even-handed to maximize RPing potential.
Now that I've gotten to know the mechanics better, I've come to understand that there is simply a "punishment" path and a "rewards" path. Those who choose the punishment path are told to suck it up because it's "realistic" and potentially shamed by being told that they shouldn't even want rewards like the other players get because being nice to imaginary people is its own reward. Those who choose the rewards path can do whatever they want and get lots of money and cool stuff and never have to face consequences for any bad things they do because realism and morality don't apply to the rewards path, only the punishment path.
This game really isn't designed for RPing a variety of characters, it's designed for playing as a villain. There's nothing wrong with that, as playing as a villain can be fun and interesting, but then, if that's the case, unless someone is REALLY invested in playing as a good guy purely for the sake of doing something different, "villain" is without a doubt the path a player should take.
So again, OP (and I'm sorry for hijacking your thread), choose Spirifer. Don't make the same mistakes I did :P
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Anne Auclair
Posts: 2215
1/24/2016
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My character picked Shepherd and I'm rather satisfied with it. The card isn't immediately lucrative, but it has lots of long term potential.
Fallen London seems at best an anti-heroes game. Even if you're well intentioned you're going to do lots of questionable things (thievery and casual violence, for a start). But seeing as the game keeps track every major decision, there's plenty of time for some of the really evil ones to catch up to you and some of the really good ones to suddenly offer some long term benefit.
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http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Anne%20Auclair
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Grenem
Posts: 2067
1/24/2016
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Anne Auclair wrote:
My character picked Shepherd and I'm rather satisfied with it. The card isn't immediately lucrative, but it has lots of long term potential.
Fallen London seems at best an anti-heroes game. Even if you're well intentioned you're going to do lots of questionable things (thievery and casual violence, for a start). But seeing as the game keeps track every major decision, there's plenty of time for some of the really evil ones to catch up to you and some of the really good ones to suddenly offer some long term benefit.
Yes, I agree with the sentiment. down here, in the lawlessness of the neath, there's no question of whether you'll do nasty things or not, the question is how much you'll do, or how long you'll hold out. i went in assuming i'd be a jerk, but my hands have been almost completely clean the last three months, though. (running out of content and not having money to spend on fate will do that. I've almost never done anything but expeditions.) The only exception is taking advantage of [D12 mrS], and given my personal feelings on the people behind [pick a gender], i can't say it's not more than a petty revolution against the throne.
I do think people can do a pacifist run- where you don't kill anyone, temporarily or permanantly, and maybe don't even fight them without a challenge- or even a morally positive run- but neither is very rewarding, and both are absurdly difficult to reach endgame doing. Retaining you virginity in persuasive is tricky too- is it even possible by now?
No stealing is obviously impossible, but you can stick to people who deserve it.
All kinds of decisions have come back to bite me. some are doing the right thing, some are doing the wrong thing, some are doing anything at all. (For instance, I don't want to finish the rat-[___F_E_] story on my next account, i want to stop right before i get to claim the reward, since both routes give a card to the deck, and I don't like having useless cards. Certainly not worth doing until i need 1 point fate for the ubergoat, at least. Meanwhile, there's no cards until i start it.)
I would say doing the right thing often comes back to bite you- but then, I'm not sure i'd be appreciative of doing exclusively the wrong thing's rewards, either. I've had petty things bite me horribly (see, sending a monkey to steal coins. sure, vile, not good, etc. but 28 echoes? seriously? for a tiny chance of 1 coin?) And had doing noble things do me great harm, or no harm.
I killed a legion of men for the c____e-__n__r, permanantly, and i lost nearly all connections to the great game, but i should have had a worse penalty... or perhaps it wasn't major enough, in their eyes, to be worth seeking vengance for. I would think it should come with some penance i'd have to do to get back into the game, but maybe this happens frequently. I considered that to be a "good" decision then, and i still do. The game is a stain on the city, and it's one made by humanity. I'll gladly dabble in it, but then... I'm not always good. Having the chance to help might mean hurting someone else.
I'd think it should be easier to have bad stuff happen to you for evil choices, both short term and long term. Some of the nastiest options should give menaces even on success, and others should give qualities that enable future punishment to the level of the crime.
But, then, this isn't u____tale. Making the choice to be good, or even just be better, if good isn't an option, is the hard route. it's easy to hurt. it's hard to help.
If you can keep your morals about you and still progress through the game, that's more impressive than any number of glasses of bazaar's sorrow.
edited by Grenem on 1/24/2016
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Married!:http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/takuza
I will accept all social actions that do not consume free evenings- and i will provide patronage to anyone who requests it, though it will be split between all requesters.
On psudeo-hiatus. Will be inactive and active and fluctuate without warning.
Grinding Favors without cards: http://community.failbettergames.com/topic22266-storylet-favors-grinding.aspx
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Infrasound
Posts: 6
1/24/2016
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Something that I think bears remembering is that there are a lot of currently useless tracking qualities, and a bunch of qualities that say 'this might be the key to your future'. Stuff like Fist of the Bazaar, as well as a few from EF stories and fate (Empyrean Redolence, Lost in Reflections, ect.). Since a lot of these come from decisions (though not always between right and wrong), I'm interested to see how these will be used later. Perhaps people will get their comeuppance later down the line.
[spoiler]So if it's 1894 now, only 14 years to wait![/spoiler]
I still like the shepherd/spirifer choice though. Instead of a reliable reward, it feels like people give you the occasional favour (just a shame that you have to pay into all of them).
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Stuck in a well.
http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Infrasound
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Passionario
Posts: 777
1/24/2016
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Grenem wrote:
I do think people can do a pacifist run- where you don't kill anyone, temporarily or permanantly, and maybe don't even fight them without a challenge- or even a morally positive run- but neither is very rewarding, and both are absurdly difficult to reach endgame doing. Retaining you virginity in persuasive is tricky too- is it even possible by now?
No stealing is obviously impossible, but you can stick to people who deserve it.
You know what? Challenge accepted.
No murders, no fights except in self-defence no thefts, no carnal delights, no infernal entanglements for this lady. Let's see how far she can get.
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Passionario: Profile, Story, Ending
Passion: Profile, Appearance
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wraith
Posts: 136
1/24/2016
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Passionario wrote:
Grenem wrote:
I do think people can do a pacifist run- where you don't kill anyone, temporarily or permanantly, and maybe don't even fight them without a challenge- or even a morally positive run- but neither is very rewarding, and both are absurdly difficult to reach endgame doing. Retaining you virginity in persuasive is tricky too- is it even possible by now?
No stealing is obviously impossible, but you can stick to people who deserve it.
You know what? Challenge accepted.
No murders, no fights except in self-defence no thefts, no carnal delights, no infernal entanglements for this lady. Let's see how far she can get.
but doing this you can't do the making your name stories for dangerous and shadowy, becoming PoSI might be a problem
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a scholar who is ready to do anything for knowledge http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/madwraith
please send boxed cat
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Nanako
Posts: 536
1/24/2016
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Passionario wrote:
No murders, no fights except in self-defence no thefts, no carnal delights, no infernal entanglements for this lady. Let's see how far she can get.
i believe the Persuasive storyline requires at least two relationships, in veilgarden and the court. being asexual seems difficult
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Sunless Skies needs engine and speed control mechanics. Have a look at my design proposal for implementing it
http://community.failbettergames.com/topic25687-a-design-for-engines.aspx
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Nanako
Posts: 536
1/24/2016
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a little guidance; after a short job at a hospice, a devil has offered to be a soul fence for me.
is there more to the storyline, or have i reached the end? that seems rather short
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Sunless Skies needs engine and speed control mechanics. Have a look at my design proposal for implementing it
http://community.failbettergames.com/topic25687-a-design-for-engines.aspx
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Schmidt
Posts: 114
1/24/2016
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I haven't played it from the spirifer side. But yeah I'm fairly certain that's the "end". Of course the main benefit is for the storylet and MOST importantly RP value for your character. Jump in and see what playing a spirifer does to ya. That's the fun part.
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http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Atticus%20Schmidt
I'll accept any actions, except loitering and Affluent Photographer (will accept dupes).
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TheThirdPolice
Posts: 609
1/24/2016
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I think of Ambition as the "main questline" and everything else as open world content. If Fallen London were structured as a typical single player RPG, most roleplayers wouldn't think twice about completing a run where they didn't participate in seduction or thieving. Getting (RP-)locked out of content feels worse when you've been playing a character for months or years, and can't finish the game yet. But in the end it's no different from most other games: it focuses on certain themes and topics, and if you choose to oppose them you can cut through a more unique path at the cost of missing out on the well-lit content highway.
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Excessive Corpse & Tender to Irreal Ravens
Lover of Flawed Souls
And with especial pride, Worst Screwup of the Decade!
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Pyrodinium
Posts: 639
1/24/2016
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Passionario wrote:
Grenem wrote:
I do think people can do a pacifist run- where you don't kill anyone, temporarily or permanantly, and maybe don't even fight them without a challenge- or even a morally positive run- but neither is very rewarding, and both are absurdly difficult to reach endgame doing. Retaining you virginity in persuasive is tricky too- is it even possible by now?
No stealing is obviously impossible, but you can stick to people who deserve it.
You know what? Challenge accepted.
No murders, no fights except in self-defence no thefts, no carnal delights, no infernal entanglements for this lady. Let's see how far she can get.
Can you make a journal or blog about this character's life? Sounds interesting.
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My profiles: http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Pyrodinium
(A Monster hunter on the hunt of his twin brother's killer. Overprotective dad of his twin's daughter)
http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Rudolph~of~Taured
(an indeterminate person of potentially rubbery lineage)
* All social actions except photographers and loitering welcome!
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Grenem
Posts: 2067
1/24/2016
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Nanako wrote:
Passionario wrote:
No murders, no fights except in self-defence no thefts, no carnal delights, no infernal entanglements for this lady. Let's see how far she can get.
i believe the Persuasive storyline requires at least two relationships, in veilgarden and the court. being asexual seems difficult
I believe they can, in fact, end platonicly, though i might be mistaken. (At least one of them can.) The point, after all, is making your name known to them, and to those who watch them. Becoming BFFs to the degree that, were you a TV show, half your fanfic is shipping the pair despite the fact that your relationship is solely platonic is an accaptable method of doing this. In short, you don't need to do the thing, just to take your relationship far enough that most would think you would. At least, IIRC.
My opinion was that the reason it'd be tricky is all the one-action seduction options, many of which only take one misclick to initiate. The feast of the rose could well be the worst time to try this, of course.
edited by Grenem on 1/24/2016
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Married!:http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/takuza
I will accept all social actions that do not consume free evenings- and i will provide patronage to anyone who requests it, though it will be split between all requesters.
On psudeo-hiatus. Will be inactive and active and fluctuate without warning.
Grinding Favors without cards: http://community.failbettergames.com/topic22266-storylet-favors-grinding.aspx
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Passionario
Posts: 777
1/24/2016
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Pyrodinium wrote:
Can you make a journal or blog about this character's life? Sounds interesting.
She's no Taupe-Waistcoat, but I'll try to scribble some of her thoughts as I go along here.
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Passionario: Profile, Story, Ending
Passion: Profile, Appearance
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Sara Hysaro
Moderator
Posts: 4514
1/24/2016
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Robin Mask wrote:
Ah, well, Mr Wines shall have fun: http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Mr~Wines
Don't be surprised if that name gets changed at some point - I've seen at least one other person claim a Master's name and they were renamed after a little while.
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http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Sara%20Hysaro
Please do not send SMEN, cat boxes, or Affluent Reporter requests. All other social actions are welcome.
Are you a Scarlet Saint? Send a message my way to be added to the list.
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Mr Sables
Posts: 597
1/24/2016
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Sara Hysaro wrote:
Robin Mask wrote:
Ah, well, Mr Wines shall have fun: http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Mr~Wines
Don't be surprised if that name gets changed at some point - I've seen at least one other person claim a Master's name and they were renamed after a little while.
Ah, that's fair enough. Thanks for the warning!
If that's the case, you'd think they'd make profiles for them (to stop users using them), or just block those names and variations from being used . . . seems a lot of work for them to monitor user names and change them whenever something like that crops up XD Here's hoping I get some say in the new name, as I already have a few alternatives in mind
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Nanako
Posts: 536
1/25/2016
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Robin Mask wrote:
Here's hoping I get some say in the new name, as I already have a few alternatives in mind
it would probably be wise to contact FBG support about it now
or else get to work roleplaying Mr Wines so well they won't want to remove it.
There's a Saint Joshua around here who is drenched in irrigo
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Sunless Skies needs engine and speed control mechanics. Have a look at my design proposal for implementing it
http://community.failbettergames.com/topic25687-a-design-for-engines.aspx
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