Passionario
Posts: 777
1/22/2016
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Nanako wrote:
As the Memento Mori proudly demonstrates, Mixing modern technology with wierd occult magic is perfectly possible. Embracing one doesn't have to mean abandoning the other.
If you're a Monster-Hunter, there might be a big gun coming up later in your career, but you won't be the one firing it. So hold on tight to that harpoon, you're going to need it.
edited by Passionario on 1/22/2016
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Passionario: Profile, Story, Ending
Passion: Profile, Appearance
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Optimatum
Posts: 3666
1/22/2016
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Things in some lack of order:
- Monster-Hunters are the end of their profession chain; the beginning is the Rat-catcher.
- The less-entangled professions ARE the more realistic career options you ask for. Doctors and tutors and such are normal but also much more boring. The Bazaar prefers good stories so the unusual careers are more powerful and well-paid.
- Correspondents are more of magic theoretical physicists than anything else. I'd disagree about the code analogy since it's both used for communication and has potent effects with just a single symbol.
- Monster-Hunters are pretty damn terrifying as-is. A big gun might be scary to a person but it's at least understandable. Swimming miles and miles from shore, killing a horrible monster with your hands, and eating the entire thing for eldritch power is a lot more Weird as well as difficult. A sentient bone weapon and ancient ritual is also more effective against nightmarish beasts than conventional weaponry.
- The Memento Mori isn't really at all modern besides being mounted on a ship. It's an awakened seal of the red science shooting life-warping energy from a housing of emotion-proof metal. And actually, it's not the best weapon against zee-beasts. The Icarus in Black is far more potent and two-shots Mount Nomad... by firing monster-hunters at it. Which have to be individually purchased at incredible price and do 500 damage each to zee-beasts and a still significant amount to ships. (Also Mount Nomad is considerably more eldritch and powerful than really any other Sunless Sea monster so explicitly just submerges when it takes enough damage to care.)
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Optimatum, a ruthless and merciful gentleman. No plant battles, Affluent Photographer requests, or healing offers; all other social actions welcome.
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PM me for information enigmatic or Fated. Though the forum please, not FL itself.
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Nanako
Posts: 536
1/22/2016
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Passionario wrote:
Nanako wrote:
As the Memento Mori proudly demonstrates, Mixing modern technology with wierd occult magic is perfectly possible. Embracing one doesn't have to mean abandoning the other.
If you're a Monster-Hunter, there might be a big gun coming up later in your career, but you won't be the one firing it. So hold on tight to that harpoon, you're going to need it.
edited by Passionario on 1/22/2016
Ah yes i remember that.
But given the fact that they deal such an enormousa amount of damage instantly, and always inevitably die, i figured those particular monster hunters were strapping dynamite to themselves and suicide bombing, not attempting to stab a monster to death
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Sunless Skies needs engine and speed control mechanics. Have a look at my design proposal for implementing it
http://community.failbettergames.com/topic25687-a-design-for-engines.aspx
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yetanotherone
Posts: 135
1/22/2016
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Nanako wrote:
...odd that he wanted to go down the Journalist path...
That path leads to correspondent, and I went with it because empurplement is important:
I'm not entirely happy with the gloves, and obviously that goat needs to be a Blemmigan Secretary (I'm sure one will turn up soon...), but I am most annoyed by the complete lack of purple (irrigo or violant is also acceptable!) boots.
Also, watchful & persuasive are good stats.
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https://www.fallenlondon.com/profile/AncientDrunkard
https://www.fallenlondon.com/Profile/ModernDrunkard
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Grenem
Posts: 2067
1/22/2016
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Nanako wrote:
As far as i can see, the correspondence is basically code.
To study and write it, is to be a programmer
And monster hunting is just hunting, except with slightly bigger prey.
And being a crooked-cross is like being a preist, only instead of selling absolute truth you sell absolute doubt.
and being a glassman is like being a mirrorsmith in reality, only the mirrors can kill you.
and being a midnighter is like running a tanning both.
Any of the proffessions can be oversimplified to the point where they sound dull, mundane and normal. If you're willing to oversimplify it, of course. but note- if "dull, mundane and normal" were really what we were after, there'd be a ton more notaries and doctors. The real reason is
A. correspondence is more interesting and explored than, say, glassman. you have an entire story area around its study, and then more. compare to midnighter, for instance.
B. correspondent is tied in a 3-way competition for best profession equipment, giving it another edge.
C. about half the pre-posi people i knew back when i was pre posi were authors, because it was a superior proffession to any other non-posi profession. continuing from there makes correspondent common.
correspondence has a finite reliability, but it's not without it's quirks. for instance, normally you can't write correspondence on paper, but a [REDACTED] verifiably can. Conversely, sometimes the sigils burst into flame despite being done properly, or as close as you can get, and most people who study it wind up smelling of smoke more than once in their lifetime.
edited by Grenem on 1/22/2016
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Pyrodinium
Posts: 639
1/23/2016
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Nanako wrote:
Everyone keeps siezing on that word, no that's not what i meant.
I mean that a spear isn't terrifying. Far less so than a really big gun.
I think the british empire's history demonstrates this quite effectively: http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/media/images/75401000/jpg/_75401592_zulupics.jpg
Nanako I'm not sure why you have to go that far...
Anyways, back to the argument. That weapon was meant to hunt and scare Monsters yes? I'm pretty sure those zee-monsters are more familiar with their brethren's appendages rather than gunpowder based tech. Let's see it in a sentient monster's perspective, if someone confronted me with a gun I might be able to actually talk that person out of attacking me. If someone's trying to attack me with pointed human tibias (just for perspective) I'm sure that dude is mad as hell and I must run very very fast.
Nanako wrote:
Pyrodinium wrote:
The tradition of using parts of your prey to hunt monsters is an at least ~13800 year old practice.
EXACTLY!
Whereas, at the time of our setting, the tradition of using giant cannons to hunt your prey is only a couple centuries old, if even that. And vastly more effective.
You may be able to jump on a tyrant moth and stab it to death, but taking down something like a Lifeberg or Mt Nomad can only feasibly be done by smashing it into pieces with explosives and large-calibre projectiles. The latter isn't even going to come anywhere near within "jump-on-it-and-stab" range, because it wrecks ships from afar with some kind of bizarre psychic powers.
I'd say the most appropriate monster hunter tool would be something akin to fallout 4's broadsider
Or perhaps even an enhanced version of such.
As the Memento Mori proudly demonstrates, Mixing modern technology with wierd occult magic is perfectly possible. Embracing one doesn't have to mean abandoning the other.
edited by Nanako on 1/22/2016
Monster-Hunting is all about fighting with wits (Watchful) and brawn (Dangerous). The fact that they're willing to engage horrors without a harpoon and after being shot out of a canon is testament to that. If you're simply relying on the strength of a weapon then you are not getting it.
You're confusing subsistence hunting with spears and other tools and industrial hunting with cannons and their associated traditions. The former is respectful of their prey and everything the prey provides is not wasted and the hunter is grateful for such a bounty. The latter on the other hand is only interested in the profits. Only the best parts of the catch are obtained while the rest are left to rot. The Monster-Hunter adheres to the former.
TLDR: Yes Monster-Hunters can and will use other, more effective weapons (Pyro has Cantigaster Venom after all which can make you deader than dead) but they use the Harpoon because it's part of their traditions and their identity.
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MadmanAtW
Posts: 231
1/23/2016
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My main is a Correspondent because I love love the whole lore and design of the Correspondence. Also I had wound up an Author early, though I hadn't known that it was the only one you could reach that early- I think I wound up a Journalist initially because I was Closest To the Bohemians at the start.
My alt is currently an Author because I made her explicitly to be available for Salons, but now that's not as much of a concern so I'm trying to decide which path she should head down, and am leaning towards Crooked Cross.
Probably going to make a third character soon, to experience all of the Names Signed changes, and that one will be a Glassman someday.
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http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Madman~Across~the~Water
http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Xoricco
Accepting any social actions except the Affluent Photographer. Would appreciate warning of dupings/betrayals/rats.
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Grenem
Posts: 2067
1/23/2016
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Nanako wrote:
Passionario wrote:
Nanako wrote:
As the Memento Mori proudly demonstrates, Mixing modern technology with wierd occult magic is perfectly possible. Embracing one doesn't have to mean abandoning the other.
If you're a Monster-Hunter, there might be a big gun coming up later in your career, but you won't be the one firing it. So hold on tight to that harpoon, you're going to need it.
edited by Passionario on 1/22/2016
Ah yes i remember that.
But given the fact that they deal such an enormousa amount of damage instantly, and always inevitably die, i figured those particular monster hunters were strapping dynamite to themselves and suicide bombing, not attempting to stab a monster to death
Attempting? They were succeeding! This isn't the surface, where guns are the ultimate weapon. health may normally be just an RPG construct, but it's probably an accurate representation in the neath! guns can't even permanantly kill you, while a properly treated vial of venom can. I would not be surprised to hear that, while bullets almost bounce off of these creatures, a stab from the weapon slides through them like butter.
Cutting the corpse to ribbons is one of very few methods to ensure they don't get back up, and monsters, creatures who have lived their life in this realm, will be even more alive then we are.
edited by Grenem on 1/23/2016
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Married!:http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/takuza
I will accept all social actions that do not consume free evenings- and i will provide patronage to anyone who requests it, though it will be split between all requesters.
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Kaigen
Posts: 530
1/23/2016
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All this talk about monster hunters and harpoons and all I can think about is this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTQkO1-Of3I
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Just a simple doctor with a chess habit. Publisher of The Flit Dispatch.
"One must remember that the impossible is, alas, always possible."
-Jacques Derrida
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Guest
1/23/2016
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And this is why I warned about trying to deconstruct things down to their mechanical level on another thread. This may be critical, but I will endeavor to be respectful of said criticism. See later.
EXACTLY!
Whereas, at the time of our setting, the tradition of using giant cannons to hunt your prey is only a couple centuries old, if even that. And vastly more effective.
You may be able to jump on a tyrant moth and stab it to death, but taking down something like a Lifeberg or Mt Nomad can only feasibly be done by smashing it into pieces with explosives and large-calibre projectiles. The latter isn't even going to come anywhere near within "jump-on-it-and-stab" range, because it wrecks ships from afar with some kind of bizarre psychic powers.
I'd say the most appropriate monster hunter tool would be something akin to fallout 4's broadsider
Not only are you assuming things that (respectfully) are sometimes wrong on your knowledge here, you are seemingly missing the point of the fantastical, the imaginative, the impossible (not to be confused with the IMPOSSIBLE game mechanic,) and the yet-obtainable offered as the FL world's theme. Even if we were to strip all the magic away, at best, this is Steampunk, not Fallout.
You assume a BFG is the best end-result because that's likely how you have your previous experience on other topics and game sources. So a gun must be better than a harpoon, even if it's magic or has a better cultural importance to the group of those who hunt "monsters."
Such conjecture misses the whole history and culture of why these people become monster hunters in the first place. (I won't bother that detail as others did fine previously.) It also misses you're in a 19th century where the whole concept of industrial mechanical process is infantile at best, and the weapons you think of only were created due to twentieth-century assembly line advancement. So everything from the bazooka on up was due to said assembly line, even if not crafted via assembly lines. Such things were made due to components due to 20th century mass production paling to the 19th century US Union Civil War standards that was mainly why the Confederacy lost said insurrection. (The British Empire would have those levels at the current FL story period, magical enhancement of Hell, space-bats, and Bazaar being the higher-level exceptions.) Even the Rattus Faber's advanced mechanics are done in a crafted, even artisan manner, and take weeks to months to make as much as a quality sword hand-crafted of the finest materials and quality used to take.
As far as i can see, the correspondence is basically code.
To study and write it, is to be a programmer
Saying Correspondence is a language so ergo this means you're a translator or coder is top-down thinking that ignores the undercurrent story of communicating stars speaking with magic fusion which is why we sometimes burst into flames. (And even that is just one modern description and not the true reason of the language which I am not going to spoil here.)
While there are characters in the FL world who will rationally try to logically try to make sense of the "just plain wrong" way things are altered there, players shouldn't do that to a literation world meant to illustrate the fantastic.
Unless you are Alice in one of the two journeyed-to realms of Wonderland or through the Looking Glass other than London, you will likely not succeed in your quantifications of explanation of rational this way.
Having an idea is one thing. Saying "well, obviously, this is how it works" in theme or even literal reply is quite another.
We don't deconstruct Verne or Wells when they have their scientific fantastical prose. We should respect the same in a living story and play within the creator's theme and timeline. While there is nothing wrong with comparing how it works with today's topics (Star Trek the original series and all other future ones did this all the time with 20th century topics such as Race, current events, and politics,) we shouldn't demand it be only a certain way due to modern knowledge. Only the creators of a work have that final say so, and even they rarely ever "put their foot down" on anything.
All this written, I saw another place (where I will not detail) where name calling and very disrespectful replies were done. This is never acceptable. if one is dissatisfied with somebody's question, perspective or opinion, it may be discussed, but it should always be done in a respectful and civilized replying manner. (My thanks to expert moderation for them from the board staff and other players when things weren't so cordial.) If you are unhappy, remember to use your words why you are so, and use confirmed examples (on the specific topic and era if possible,) but also remember to use empathy and see it from a newer or alternate perspective as well. Even Lewis Carol didn't chop all of the dissenter's of Wonderland's heads off.
Of course, do keep up the research, but do realize what you get out of the search for it. .
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Diptych
Administrator
Posts: 3493
1/23/2016
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the truthseeker wrote:
this is Steampunk, not Fallout.
D'you know, I'd say Fallout -is- steampunk - in that it uses the styles and values of a past era to make a critique of technology's role in society. Whether the combination is "Victorian London" and "industrial capitalism makes slaves of the poor" or "1950s America" and "technological progress is a façade that hides the enduring injustices of competition for scarce resources", the fundamental structure is the same.
...oh, and discussing the point at hand, the harpoon is a powerful weapon because it's a handmade weapon, carved from the very bones of a terrible monster by a dedicated hunter, and there's no way for a handmade weapon carved from the very bones of a terrible monster by a dedicated hunter -not- to be a powerful weapon in any fictional setting that has even a shred of romance to it. Also the monster had supernatural powers and the hunter has gained its strength by killing it and devouring its essence. Every element of this equation is magic, and they only get magic-er as they come together.
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Sir Frederick, the Libertarian Esotericist. Lord Hubris, the Bloody Baron.
Juniper Brown, the Ill-Fated Orphan. Esther Ellis-Hall, the Fashionable Fabian.
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Lady Sapho Byron
Posts: 770
1/23/2016
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metasynthie wrote:
You know the highest-tier Journalist profession is also somewhat fantastical, right? The Correspondent. Lore-wise, the higher-end professions are institutionalized by the Bazaar for its own ends.
If you break the current poll down by which stat people are improving with their professional item:
Dangerous: 10
Shadowy: 10
watchful: 23
Persuasive: 19
This tilt makes sense if you look at the fact that there are very high-level Watchful and Persuasive challenges in the game (particularly Watchful) and that Persuasive is rather hard to get into a very high range.
Since the players of FL tend to be smart folks (at least the ones on the forums); I wonder if we consciously or unconsciously attempt to maximize Watchful in-game.
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http://fallenlondon.com/Profile/Lady%20Sapho%20L%20Byron
Fighting the Menace of Corsetry Since 1892.
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Mordaine Barimen
Posts: 670
1/23/2016
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The game itself seems to prioritize Watchful and Persuasive over Shadowy and Dangerous, which betrays the interests of the writers IMO. And, naturally, will shape the players' behaviour, as per metashynthie's line of reasoning.
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I'm sorry, but due to policy clarifications, I will no longer be giving detailed mechanics advice on the forums.
If you still need help, try the IRC channel.
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Hobnail
Posts: 179
1/23/2016
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Lady Sapho Byron wrote:
Since the players of FL tend to be smart folks (at least the ones on the forums); I wonder if we consciously or unconsciously attempt to maximize Watchful in-game.
AS A TREMENDOUS SELF-DESTRUCTIVE IDIOT AND RECIDIVIST FOOL I TAKE A GREAT DEAL OF EXCEPTION TO THIS STATEMENT
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Nanako
Posts: 536
1/23/2016
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You assume a BFG is the best end-result because that's likely how you have your previous experience on other topics and game sources. So a gun must be better than a harpoon, even if it's magic or has a better cultural importance to the group of those who hunt "monsters."
As mentioned with my references to Mt Nomad, i am basing my theories on Sunless Sea, which is official, canon, FBG content. That moreso than any historical factors
Plus, in my own Ambition Sequence in FL, i was all ready to destroy Stone, almost a literal god, with a whole swathe of dynamite. Not any kind of magic.
Such conjecture misses the whole history and culture of why these people become monster hunters in the first place.
Ah yes, "these people". I feel i should point out then, that the people you're talking about are the Chelonites, the denizens of the city inside a vast turtle carcass to the east. Hunting monsters with spears and bone tools is THEIR culture, not london's. And their culture has a reasonable degree of nihilism that implies lots of them die whenever they go out hunting.
In both sunless sea and fallen london, you are typically implied to be an english-speaking ordinary londoner, if not to begin with, then eventually naturalised as such
London's culture is cannons, tea, and a stiff upper lip
(I won't bother that detail as others did fine previously.) It also misses you're in a 19th century where the whole concept of industrial mechanical process is infantile at best, and the weapons you think of only were created due to twentieth-century assembly line advancement. So everything from the bazooka on up was due to said assembly line, even if not crafted via assembly lines. Such things were made due to components due to 20th century mass production paling to the 19th century US Union Civil War standards that was mainly why the Confederacy lost said insurrection.
I'm not so certain about this. As can be seen from the shopping part of london in Sunless Sea, there are quite a number of corporations who dedicate themselves to manufacturing naval equipment and cannons. Stampshod's, Leadbeater and Stainrod, Cotterell and Hathersage etc. And the latter, at the very least, is shown in-universe to be in posession of at least one large factory, filled with enough fuel and machinery to violently explode.
All this written, I saw another place (where I will not detail) where name calling and very disrespectful replies were done. This is never acceptable. if one is dissatisfied with somebody's question, perspective or opinion, it may be discussed, but it should always be done in a respectful and civilized replying manner.
i like to think i reply to things in a civil manner, are you saying i was the one making insults? If so, i humbly apologise for that.
i can think of only one such thread in recent memory, and the insults were not said by myself, but directed AT me. that person seemed to be suitably reprimanded for their words, and naught more was said about it
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Sunless Skies needs engine and speed control mechanics. Have a look at my design proposal for implementing it
http://community.failbettergames.com/topic25687-a-design-for-engines.aspx
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Grenem
Posts: 2067
1/23/2016
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Lady Sapho Byron wrote:
Since the players of FL tend to be smart folks (at least the ones on the forums); I wonder if we consciously or unconsciously attempt to maximize Watchful in-game.
Well, I have no desire to maximize my watchful on its own merits, but for a certain other purpose...
Let's just say its much harder to get the bazaar to weep if you don't go into the caverns forgotten.
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Married!:http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/takuza
I will accept all social actions that do not consume free evenings- and i will provide patronage to anyone who requests it, though it will be split between all requesters.
On psudeo-hiatus. Will be inactive and active and fluctuate without warning.
Grinding Favors without cards: http://community.failbettergames.com/topic22266-storylet-favors-grinding.aspx
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Nanako
Posts: 536
1/23/2016
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Grenem wrote:
This isn't the surface, where guns are the ultimate weapon. I would not be surprised to hear that, while bullets almost bounce off of these creatures, a stab from the weapon slides through them like butter.
You may well be right about "guns", but there is an extremely large difference between a musket, and a naval cannon.
Cutting the corpse to ribbons is one of very few methods to ensure they don't get back up,
Then i see no reasons why blasting them to smithereens with explosive shot shouldn't accomplish the same effect. most likely faster.
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Sunless Skies needs engine and speed control mechanics. Have a look at my design proposal for implementing it
http://community.failbettergames.com/topic25687-a-design-for-engines.aspx
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ganjalf91
Posts: 87
1/23/2016
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Ill try to explain the harpoon choice going in another direction.
I dont think devs wanted to give you a realistically powerful weapon, they wanted to give you a symbol: The monster hunter is a mysterious figure, that doesnt talk much, goes around in a trenchcoat and silently defends london from the hidden creatures coming from the very depths of the sea. It must inspire fear, mystery and respect. Think of it as a movie scene:
1)a kraken emerges from the deep. Our hero, living in a victorian setting, pulls out... A bazooka. Staying safe on the dock of the ship, he shots a single blow with his OP weapon and the kraken is not to be seen again.
2)he instead pulls out the harpoon, jumps fearlessly into the water, and after what seems to be hours he emerges victorious with the kraken's head to hang later above the fireplace.
Its like Gandalf vs the balrog, how lame would it look if he had a gun?
Now, im a HUGE fan of fallout (New Vegas is my favourite game of all times), but that simply would not work in FL. Here, the most powerful weapons are symbols with a story, not things with more gunpowder than other things. I mean, what am i supposed to do with "a list written in gant", hit you on the head with that? 
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Parelle
Posts: 1084
1/23/2016
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Here's the thing: monster hunter isn't invoking the shoot all the Tigers in India trope. It's closer to whaling:
1) if you shoot the bloody thing to bits, you can't prove what you killed IS it. Oh? You say that's a sea monster? Looks like a pile of fish guts to me!
2) shooting it kills it. And some times that's not the point. [spoiler]like in the very instance of where being a monster hunter is useful in the Unterzee[/spoiler]
3) if you look at accounts of whaling, harpooning tired the whales out, and then sometimes they'd shoot it where it really hurts. But only after capturing it by using its own strength against it.
4) whaling peaks around 1850 but continues into the 1920, if I remember. We are solidly into the Industrial Age here, and 1894 is 10 years before the Dreadnoughts class which will revolutionize naval combat. At the same time, it's still a bit mystical - Moby Dick,
In the Heart of the Sea, and the Leviathan, for example.
5) shooting can damage it: mostly dealing with the whaling analogy but it's not as easy to get oil out of a whale if it's leaking all over the ocean.
6) this is a county which originally had fox hunting (where are the foxes in the neath?) a gentleman does not shoot a fox. It's not sporting, and it misses the point of it being sport, leisure and not necessity.
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Parelle, Lady Joseph Marlen. The Singular Librarian. A Midnighter, a Player of the Marvelous.
pages from a dusty bookshop: a badly updated FL changelog | Useful Guidance and Explanations
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Kittenpox
Posts: 869
1/23/2016
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Seems like we're getting into a discussion about monster-hunting rather than a discussion about comparing the various professions in general. Also, it looks like someone's going through and giving the thumbs-down to many of Nanako's comments. (As indicated by their grand total of *MINUS* 61 across all posts, even after I put a few of them back up to +0.)
Generally I don't overly concern myself with this because I figure it'll all balance out in the end (and it usually does), but when someone's giving the thumbs-down to:
Nanako wrote:
As far as i can see, the correspondence is basically code. To study and write it, is to be a programmer
...then it seems to me either that person is taking a rather passive-aggressive approach at saying "YOU'RE WRONG!", or is just being spiteful about the whole thing.
The lore in the game ain't handed out on a silver platter. There's conflicting and deliberately unreliable information within the various facets of the game, including the sidebar text pieces. So the comment that goes "As far as I can see, <thing>..." is basically an opinion at most, and one that is already being prefaced by a 'this might not be exactly the case but what I've seen implies...'
So if you were voting that one down (along with all the other comments Nanako has made, including the ones on http://community.failbettergames.com/topic19616-varchas-storyline-how-can-it-end-spoilers.aspx and http://community.failbettergames.com/topic7828-changes-to-theological-husbandry.aspx?Page=4 ), I honestly don't get it - what exactly do you want???
(Note: This is a rhetorical question. I'm not interested in reading the answer in this thread, because that's only going to perpetuate the off-topic discussion, and ain't gonna make either of us happy.)
What I'm trying to say is that regardless whether you think bone weapons or cannonballs are better for the task of monster-hunting, or what your personal belief is regarding a deliberately obscure piece of lore in a text-based browser game, there's no need to downvote someone's comments indiscriminately.
Let's avoid getting all toxic about this, yeah? We can do better, surely.
edited by Kittenpox on 1/23/2016
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Kittenpox
Current [Fabulous Diamond] count: Twenty-Five (of 50). Halfway there! ^_^
Metaphysical Caprice: 11.
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Currently: Returned to the Neath, and regaining my footing in this place. :-)
NO PLANT BATTLES PLEASE.
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