Zantumall
Posts: 109
1/12/2016
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I was wondering if it would be possible to get an official response regarding when we're likely to see the next Light Fingers update. Obviously I'm not privy to the internal decision-making process at Failbetter, but I have to admit I'm more than a little frustrated that the last Ambition update was more than a year ago even though we were told all the Ambitions would be getting updates within a couple months of each other. Could we at least get a little information regarding when we're likely to see the remaining updates, or at the very least some reassurance that they're still happening?
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TheThirdPolice
Posts: 609
1/12/2016
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Many people have showed up with articulate, reasonable points about this schedule. Let's be fair and balanced here and offer a competing point of view.
Firstly, most Failbetter writers cannot work under ordinary conditions. They require prisoner's honey for inspiration, and as you know, this substance only functions in the Neath. The failure of Project Psychopomp (a bold plan to send courier flying fish through the Cumean Canal) means communication is slow between the writer and his coworkers up top. It can often take four or five trips before the writer produces a draft that fits the company's needs. And you can be sure that any story involving the translation of a Correspondence glyph sent at least three writers mad, or produced initial drafts that slipped into sigils illegal to bring to the Surface.
Given all these issues, how is that Failbetter manages to produce as much content as they do? They haven't confirmed this outright, but based on hints from social media and neighborhood cats, I suspect the existence of a new project. Ever since the Aestival colony content released, we've heard reports of honey-mazed Failbetter employees boarding Surface vessels. These sail deep into the Pacific, and at the selfsame time the hell-fueled engines of the Neath churn east bearing sweet-scented amphorae and crates inscribed with Loamsprach. No doubt the writers have found a hole in the ocean's surface. They tie a satellite telephone to their back, climb halfway down a pillar of clay men, and imbibe their honey while dictating their dreams.
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genesis
Posts: 924
1/12/2016
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FBG is a small company. The few people they have are working on several projects at the same time (Fallen London, Sunless Sea and the iOS app being just the biggest ones).
In order to be able to do that they have to have processes in place. While in the abstract it may seem like one person may do a piece of content in 2-3 days, that person is not just floating in the ether - they are likely assigned a task in the queue. So they would have to interrupt whatever they are doing, at the very least. Most of the tasks are interlinked which causes significant knock-on effects.
On top of big-ticket projects that FBG is involved and general content generation, there is a lot of day-to-day maintenance that those very same few people are also responsible for: server maintenance, bug reports, player communications etc. During seasonal content, for example, someone has to be on tap to manage the release of different parts of the event. So, for instance, someone has to change the Noman's cost manually every few days.
To top it off, it is likely not the case that it takes only 2-3 days to write content. Firstly, it's a creative endeavor and you can't expect it to necessarily stick to tight deadlines. Secondly, it's not a solitary endeavor - several people are always involved in every new piece of content. You have quality assurance, continuity, editing etc. Plus the game engine mechanics. You may think the programming side is easy and, relative to complex 3D games it might be, but it is still far from trivial - the number of rough corners in Flint being case in point.
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Kittenpox
Posts: 869
1/13/2016
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TheThirdPolice wrote:
Many people have showed up with articulate, reasonable points about this schedule. Let's be fair and balanced here and offer a competing point of view.
Firstly, most Failbetter writers cannot work under ordinary conditions...
For some reason I was expecting you to suggest they hire Blemmigans as additional writing staff.
But I like your version too. ^_^
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Cotton Dee
Posts: 76
1/19/2016
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It's the ending. Everyone loves a good ending. The players waiting desperately for Ambition updates want an ending to the tale, for their questions to be answered, for their toils to be rewarded. It's a natural longing, for closure, I guess. No-one really appreciates a cliff-hanger unless there's a follow-up afterward.
Personally, I had hoped Light Fingers might take a little longer. We have so much left to do and explore, yet. Also, I'm wondering whether the end of Ambitions might signal some sort of change within the general narrative. When you begin an Ambition you get the warning that what you are doing is a grand undertaking, one that stretches throughout the entirety of the game. Does this mean that with the end of Ambitions comes some sort of final, permanent content boundary?
Fallen London still has 11 years to go, before the next city comes down, so ending everything mid 2016 and saying that there's no more content to come down would seem quite premature. What I'm hoping is that there are "sequel" ambitions. Your first ambition would end once you satisfy the original goal, or the original goal is lost. Then the sequel ambition's beginning would start with a change in goals, and continue the storyline.
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Fairweather
Posts: 86
1/17/2016
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Well in that case I think it's fair enough that the Light Fingers players are a little put out (and yes I am one of them!). 15 months since mention of an update and still no update is a bit disappointing.
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TheThirdPolice
Posts: 609
1/14/2016
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Blemmigans and ocelots are both effective writers, but cannot stand the sight of each other. Internal divisions over which species to hire has stymied both strategies for now.
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Lover of Flawed Souls
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genesis
Posts: 924
1/12/2016
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Zantumall wrote:
I understand that making new content requires a lot of time and resources and that they have to balance these costs against the other things they're working on at the time, but it does still frustrate me that the Ambition updates seem to be so low on the priority list even though they were announced such a long time ago. Couldn't some of the other new content we've been getting have been delayed until FBG had followed through on the promise to finish this round of Ambition updates? Since then, just off the top of my head, we've gotten Port Carnelian, the new Flash Lay content, several exceptional stories, all four Making your Name updates, and several Sunless Sea patches. Couldn't FBG focus on putting out the content they already promised to release before they worry about making all this new stuff? That's my only complaint.
They could. They have also been quite open that Ambitions are intended to be a very long term project that evolves as the rest of the game evolves.
Ambitions are intended, in part, to be milestones to the endgame to the extent that FL will have one. So it does make a lot of sense that each Ambiition update should be preceding by chunky non-Ambition developments.
Separately, but relatedly, FBG have also been quite transparent that they want to prioritise early game content over late game content (which Ambitions certainly are). This certainly makes sense since player base growth comes from the early game.
Yes it's frustrating that their original estimates for Ambitions have been over-optimistic. But given all the other things they have been transparent about it completely makes sense for them not to prioritise Ambitions
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Charlotte_de_Witte
Posts: 360
1/12/2016
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Edit: Second time I've been preempted by someone else's better argument in one day! See writing takes time! 
I think the writing process maybe far more involved than you suspect. Remember that everything written needs to be researched, checked, talked about, considered, revised, approved etc etc.. Also with a game the size of FL making sure you keep internal consistency with new plot-lines and content must be a nightmare.
Bear in mind that it is small team also working on another more 'advanced' game, Sunless Sea.
All the Making your Name stories have been revised over the last few months - that must have been very complex. I have never seen FL have any downtime to implement new things which seems a small miracle to me.
Understandably as well Fate content very rightly must come first, for the business to continue (and Flint was huge) so there that as well.
Add in that the writers are people with lives outside of work to content with, and although it may perhaps be a little frustrating, I can understand why it has taken such a time to get an update.
Of course all the frustration people feel is only a reflection of all the care, thought and effort that goes into the game. No wonder people are anxious for more 
Quality takes time. Quantity isn't fast either. FL has both
ganjalf91 wrote:
I admit im quite ignorant about this kind of matters, so dont take this in the wrong way, but:
Isnt for a single writer 2-3 days more than enough to write a good chunk of an ambition? And, since the programming side of this game looks very easy, maybe 2-3 hours to implement it?
I understand that many "advanced" games requires a lot of time to code all the 3-D rendering and effects, but FL is literally just text and some images.
If i had to guess an ETA for some of the foreseeable content without knowing the game i'd say a single month would be enough, for a writer, a programmer, and an artist, for: End of all ambitions (15 days total), new professions (5-10 days) and the month exceptional story (5-10 days). How come it takes so long?
DISCLAIMER: I know almost nothing, practically, of what i wrote above, so this isnt a rant or anything, just a genuine question because i dont understand how times can be extended about 50 times what i actually expect
edited by ganjalf91 on 1/12/2016
edited by Charlotte_de_Witte on 1/12/2016
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Rupho Schartenhauer
Posts: 787
10/6/2016
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Robin Alexander wrote:
McDermott wrote:
So erm.. how is Light Fingers doing? That's a question that comes up a lot . . .
The shortest answer - and most respectful to FBG - would be to say: no word or further updates at this time. I am a bit miffed about FB's continued silence about this. There are probably several very good reasons for the delay - why don't they just tell us? What's wrong with a short Forum post "Sorry folks, this got delayed because of reasons X, Y and Z. Thank you for your patience."
FB's communication policy is severely lacking here in my opinion. The original announcement was two years ago...
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Guy Scrum
Posts: 197
1/12/2016
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ganjalf91 wrote:
I admit im quite ignorant about this kind of matters, so dont take this in the wrong way, but:
Isnt for a single writer 2-3 days more than enough to write a good chunk of an ambition? And, since the programming side of this game looks very easy, maybe 2-3 hours to implement it?
I understand that many "advanced" games requires a lot of time to code all the 3-D rendering and effects, but FL is literally just text and some images.
If i had to guess an ETA for some of the foreseeable content without knowing the game i'd say a single month would be enough, for a writer, a programmer, and an artist, for: End of all ambitions (15 days total), new professions (5-10 days) and the month exceptional story (5-10 days). How come it takes so long?
DISCLAIMER: I know almost nothing, practically, of what i wrote above, so this isnt a rant or anything, just a genuine question because i dont understand how times can be extended about 50 times what i actually expect
edited by ganjalf91 on 1/12/2016
Writing is hard.
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genesis
Posts: 924
1/12/2016
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It's definitely happening... sometime:
https://twitter.com/EchoBazaar/status/676387475498094593
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Keeping track of incomplete content and loose ends in Fallen London
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mnemosius
Posts: 50
1/12/2016
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ganjalf91 wrote:
I admit im quite ignorant about this kind of matters, so dont take this in the wrong way, but:
Isnt for a single writer 2-3 days more than enough to write a good chunk of an ambition? And, since the programming side of this game looks very easy, maybe 2-3 hours to implement it?
I understand that many "advanced" games requires a lot of time to code all the 3-D rendering and effects, but FL is literally just text and some images.
If i had to guess an ETA for some of the foreseeable content without knowing the game i'd say a single month would be enough, for a writer, a programmer, and an artist, for: End of all ambitions (15 days total), new professions (5-10 days) and the month exceptional story (5-10 days). How come it takes so long?
DISCLAIMER: I know almost nothing, practically, of what i wrote above, so this isnt a rant or anything, just a genuine question because i dont understand how times can be extended about 50 times what i actually expect
edited by ganjalf91 on 1/12/2016
Quality control after that tends to take up a large chunk of time as well, but also it's the fact that Failbetter is currently working on FL's mobile app, and the Zubmariner Sunless Sea expansion. So regardless of the time writing might take (and as a novelist I can tell you that writing something that's actually good takes a lot longer than a few days), it's also not their current focus.
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Zantumall
Posts: 109
1/12/2016
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I understand that making new content requires a lot of time and resources and that they have to balance these costs against the other things they're working on at the time, but it does still frustrate me that the Ambition updates seem to be so low on the priority list even though they were announced such a long time ago. Couldn't some of the other new content we've been getting have been delayed until FBG had followed through on the promise to finish this round of Ambition updates? Since then, just off the top of my head, we've gotten Port Carnelian, the new Flash Lay content, several exceptional stories, all four Making your Name updates, and several Sunless Sea patches. Couldn't FBG focus on putting out the content they already promised to release before they worry about making all this new stuff? That's my only complaint.
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Ian Hart
Posts: 437
1/14/2016
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While I am always in favor of the "it's done when it's done" philosophy, I do think a sort of pseudo-schedule would be nice.
Maybe rate each storyline with a "frequency" or something like that. Just to give people an idea of how many months/years/decades until that particular story is likely to next be continued.
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Guest
1/14/2016
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TheThirdPolice wrote:
Blemmigans and ocelots are both effective writers, but cannot stand the sight of each other. Internal divisions over which species to hire has stymied both strategies for now.
And this warring division had been "resolved" when somebody "accidently" introduced a Bifurcated Owl, which fed on both parties.
As those who own such an Owl creation know, while they technically are not "digested," they are not able to retrieve them outside the Owl's inner confines.
Parties sent in to retrieve them have also been stuck in the same location and are irretrievable as well.
In an unrelated story, property-shattering Shrieks have been on the increase.
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Diptych
Administrator
Posts: 3493
1/14/2016
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Ian Hart wrote:
While I am always in favor of the "it's done when it's done" philosophy, I do think a sort of pseudo-schedule would be nice.
Maybe rate each storyline with a "frequency" or something like that. Just to give people an idea of how many months/years/decades until that particular story is likely to next be continued.
I have no insider knowledge on the matter, but I suspect the reverse is the case - FBG's recent updates have largely been surprises, and it appears they've adopted a philosophy of not promising content before it's ready, in case of delays.
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metasynthie
Posts: 645
1/17/2016
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Light Fingers is up next. Heart's Desire got its penultimate chapter last summer (not a year ago as the original post states). Nemesis was about a year ago, and Bag a Legend a few months before that.
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Guest
1/12/2016
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Guy Scrum wrote:
ganjalf91 wrote:
I admit im quite ignorant about this kind of matters, so dont take this in the wrong way, but:
Isnt for a single writer 2-3 days more than enough to write a good chunk of an ambition? And, since the programming side of this game looks very easy, maybe 2-3 hours to implement it?
I understand that many "advanced" games requires a lot of time to code all the 3-D rendering and effects, but FL is literally just text and some images.
If i had to guess an ETA for some of the foreseeable content without knowing the game i'd say a single month would be enough, for a writer, a programmer, and an artist, for: End of all ambitions (15 days total), new professions (5-10 days) and the month exceptional story (5-10 days). How come it takes so long?
DISCLAIMER: I know almost nothing, practically, of what i wrote above, so this isnt a rant or anything, just a genuine question because i dont understand how times can be extended about 50 times what i actually expect
edited by ganjalf91 on 1/12/2016
Writing is hard.
it's haaaaaaaaaaard. (Sorry, I haven't heard that in a while. Continuing more seriously in a moment, but again, my apologies from the US for the intellectual backslide we call the Kardashian Media experience.)
As noted, not only do we have all the planning queued, and Quality Control, and integration from all the other released material, we have the said projects the small team of Failbeter staff (and occasional couple of Contracted Writers if any, and that hiring process is a story in itself,) are working on continuously such as the Zubmariner, the recently released Sunless Sea Christmastide addition Project, and Fallen London's IoS constant development, consumer testing and modification.
Now add the Holiday staffing needed for Live events when anything has to be toggled (Failbeter has to have people there to make sure the limited-time events that trigger are working correctly) and you have Christmas, De Gustus and The Feast of the Exceptional rose required planning and live staffing as well, even for "veteran" events that are known (and while easier than a new project, are still not simple to maintain with the bugs and feedback that still can happen with players and the follow up fixing then.)
So add all the above and the prior-replies' content discussed, and you can see why updating the Ambition is priority in regards to the Ambitions, but it still can be delayed many months before its release for a small Independent company managing these current-running projects.
Have I thanked Failbetter recently for all its great stuff done considering its small team? You people are fantastic!
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Kittenpox
Posts: 869
1/12/2016
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I think the official response would be that it will be done when it's done.
Pouring words onto the page may take that long, but matching it with existing lore, balancing it against other Ambitions (why play any of the others if Light Fingers gives you 1000 Echoes an hour? Or vice versa if Light Fingers gives stuff-all compared to the others?)
Like, yes, writing doesn't take long if you're flooded with divine inspiration and everything flows perfectly onto the page - but I think I'm right in saying that I'd rather Light Fingers is polished properly before release, rather than us playing whatever the first draft happens to be. :-)
Then, of course, we must also consider that they do other stuff than purely writing. Maintaining the Support for people who are having glitches takes time, checking forums takes time, writing the next part(s) of Sunless Sea takes time.
(Sorry if any of this comes across as rambling or ranting - just that there's more that goes on than immaculate writing. :3 )
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Kittenpox
Current [Fabulous Diamond] count: Twenty-Five (of 50). Halfway there! ^_^
Metaphysical Caprice: 11.
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NO PLANT BATTLES PLEASE.
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MidnightVoyager
Posts: 858
1/19/2016
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Cotton Dee wrote:
It's the ending.
Well, actually it's the update -before- the ending, the same update all the other ambitions have had.
I understand people being a bit put out by it since all the other ambitions have had the update already.
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Fairweather
Posts: 86
1/24/2016
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metasynthie wrote:
I'm not entirely sure why everyone's in such a rush to get to the end of the Ambitions, in any case.
I'm not sure about others but I'm not in a rush to finish the tale. But it's easy to forget details of the story after such a long break, which is a shame. And, as MidnightVoyager wrote, I was under the impression this is an update not a conclusion.
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Aurora Chasseresse - A little rough round the edges, but there's no one you'd want more in a hunting party... or zee shanty sing-a-long
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McDermott
Posts: 8
10/6/2016
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So erm.. how is Light Fingers doing?
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metasynthie
Posts: 645
1/19/2016
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I'm not entirely sure why everyone's in such a rush to get to the end of the Ambitions, in any case. Once you finish the next chapter (or two more, in Light Fingers' case) there's no more, ever -- it's over. Wouldn't you like to savor being in the story a little more before it's over? Or does your longing to "know what happens" take precedence? Spoiler: something happens, it's not world-ending, and there's a 99% chance that your character goes on afterwards.
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Grenem
Posts: 2067
1/24/2016
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metasynthie wrote:
I'm not entirely sure why everyone's in such a rush to get to the end of the Ambitions, in any case. Once you finish the next chapter (or two more, in Light Fingers' case) there's no more, ever -- it's over. Wouldn't you like to savor being in the story a little more before it's over? Or does your longing to "know what happens" take precedence? Spoiler: something happens, it's not world-ending, and there's a 99% chance that your character goes on afterwards.
I'd like to see what happens, though, and if they're not updating- it's still, effectively, over, we just don't have closure. More updates and longer story is preferable, but being at the content boundary and being at the story's final end are effectively equivalent, as far as savoring the story goes.
Now, there's no need to rush through the story, but I'm sure you can see the value of an update, ending or no ending.
Plus, i want to know what awesome payoff we have. [not talking about material rewards here, though they're nice too.] What do we do? What changes? What awesome things happen, whether wonderful or terrible?
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Kittenpox
Posts: 869
1/12/2016
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Ah, I knew I'd forgotten something - the app stuff. Typing this out on my phone isn't the quickest. :-p
But yeah, as a fellow Light Fingers player, I'm keen for the next instalment of it to come out, but I understand they're juggling a whole bunch of stuff at once that needs working on. :-)
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Kittenpox
Current [Fabulous Diamond] count: Twenty-Five (of 50). Halfway there! ^_^
Metaphysical Caprice: 11.
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Currently: Returned to the Neath, and regaining my footing in this place. :-)
NO PLANT BATTLES PLEASE.
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Lemexis
Posts: 155
1/12/2016
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They already said it happened "next" when I asked the same question 5 or 6 months ago.
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ganjalf91
Posts: 87
1/12/2016
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I admit im quite ignorant about this kind of matters, so dont take this in the wrong way, but:
Isnt for a single writer 2-3 days more than enough to write a good chunk of an ambition? And, since the programming side of this game looks very easy, maybe 2-3 hours to implement it?
I understand that many "advanced" games requires a lot of time to code all the 3-D rendering and effects, but FL is literally just text and some images.
If i had to guess an ETA for some of the foreseeable content without knowing the game i'd say a single month would be enough, for a writer, a programmer, and an artist, for: End of all ambitions (15 days total), new professions (5-10 days) and the month exceptional story (5-10 days). How come it takes so long?
DISCLAIMER: I know almost nothing, practically, of what i wrote above, so this isnt a rant or anything, just a genuine question because i dont understand how times can be extended about 50 times what i actually expect
edited by ganjalf91 on 1/12/2016
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