ganjalf91
Posts: 87
12/28/2015
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Is the fate brench worth it in terms of storyline/items? And, most of all, will it make that damn card go away from my deck? Possibly without flooding it with other cards?
Also, same questions as above for secrets framed in gold and the glim sculptor, without of course being too specific. Note that im not interested in passion destiny or the squid consort
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http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Ganjalf91
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Alexis Kennedy
Posts: 1374
12/30/2015
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I don't know what kind of cackling fiends you think we are, but no card exists 'solely to clog up your deck'. Some outlive their usefulness, is all. You're wading hip-deep through more lovingly crafted free content than you will find in any other F2P game ever, and occasionally the deck gently nudges you and suggests you throw a dollar or two our way. It's perfectly fine if you don't want to; but if you call us crooks for asking, you will see this disappointed frown; this one, here on my disappointed face.
Happy New Year!
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Danko
Posts: 142
12/30/2015
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I feel this calls attention to opportunity deck problems in general, since at most points in the game there will be some cards (or quite a lot of cards) you absolutely hate and never will play in the right mind.
I understand not every card must be awesome, but neither I think that's the right design decision to include really useless cards in players' decks.
Some of the opportunity cards drive me insane and there is no way to get rid of them. Bonus rage points since many of them are the consequence my own faults in early game that I can't get rid of (hello, lodgings).
I've calculated that from the approximate ~150 cards in my extremely trimmed opp. deck, there are at least half cards that I will always discard without thinking twice. As a late game player the only cards I play are the ones that give me 1,7+ EPA or other important things like Certifiable Scraps.
I ask thee, must it really be so?
There are a few possible solutions I see:
a) allow the player to drop the requirements for weak cards (kind of like dropping connections you don't want to use).
b) include a new mechanic, allowing the players to "lock" certain number of cards of their own choice from constantly showing up in their deck (kind of like plans, but not at all like plans).
c) buff the weak cards or make them scale with character stats/progression. As stat capped character I only care about 1,7+ EPA or unique things like scraps.
d) add another interesting mechanic for weak opportunity cards like "Someone is coming", letting you raise a certain stat by playing weak cards and then cashing it for reasonable well-balanced rewards.
e) allow endgame characters to build their own 60 card deck [s]and fight eachother[/s]
edited by Danko on 12/30/2015
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http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Danko
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NiteBrite
Posts: 1019
12/30/2015
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What's that Alexis? Sunless sea will have day one dlc? Quick everyone to the torches :V
I tease, but man do you remember that from the old kick starter? People got so mad and started demanding to know "what percentage of the game is free" and "how much extra do I have to pay for the 'full' game". I kind of wonder if this sort of mentality will pop up again in the future as more and more of the game becomes Exceptional Stories. The tag line for FL is that it has a million free words and the promise has always been that you don't have to pay to experience a full game, that nothing vital will be locked behind a pay wall. But it is kind of interesting to see the pay side of things growing ever larger every month, little by little.
Just the other day I saw Hannah joke that half the game is now in Flint alone. A joke of course, but it does give one pause for thought. Will it be true, one day that most of the game is hidden away behind money locks? Not as anything malicious or devious, but just through natural growth over the coming years. It might be nice if some of the exceptional stories were retired into free stories a few years after initial release just to keep the free/paid ratio from getting out of hand as time passes.
I don't know what the future holds for FL, but one thing is sure. It will be interesting to see how it evolves and adapts from this day forward.
edited by NiteBrite on 12/30/2015
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I AM currently accepting calling cards.
Stats loss counter: reset, irrigo equivalent: none
[00:34] <@ortab> NiteBrite's laugh is that of a condemned soul gazing into the abyss.
Merciless Modiste avatar by Paul Arendt (based on an original image by Joe England)
http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/TheBriteModiste
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Alexis Kennedy
Posts: 1374
12/30/2015
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Danko wrote:
I just write this in hope that somewhere loong way down on Failbetter "TODO next year" list is a point called something like "possibly maybe consider thinking about rebalancing some opportunity cards, or maybe not."
There is! But please don't take this as a commitment to when or if this might happen.
And thanks, all - this is an interesting and useful thread.
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malthaussen
Posts: 1060
12/30/2015
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Well, I am far from an end-game player, and 1.7 Echoes seems like a payout far in excess of any expectations I might have, but my deck is certainly subject to getting cards I won't use... and so what? In a few minutes, another card will come around. I am somewhat astonished that people who are experiencing something that is as free as they want it to be (no expenditure at all is required), feel it is reasonable to complain about the nature of that free something. I was always taught "beggars can't be choosers," but perhaps that has changed in recent years. At any rate, I have no complaint about the way FBG does business or creates content, and it is possibly worthwhile for the developers to hear some positive feedback from the silent majority who flip their cards in peace. Pour moi, I think FBG deserves three cheers and a tiger.
-- Mal
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"Of two choices, I always take the third."
Will do all socials except Loitering or Private Evenings (all my Free Evenings are accounted for), and Affluent Photographer Betrayals only, please. I am not currently accepting calling cards.
http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/malthaussen
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Estelle Knoht
Posts: 1751
12/30/2015
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Alexis Kennedy wrote:
you will see this disappointed frown; this one, here on my disappointed face.
You know, maybe they are hoping you will frown so hard that they can snag a bottle of tiger blood.
I feel like this year there's more free content added this year than before, but since they are done with less fanfare than the EF it is easy to *feel* like the game is shifting focus to paid story since people keep seeing news about paid stories and less about free stuff.
It'd still be nice to have a better way of nudging players towards paid stories without using cards though - say, moving the Aunt / Flute Street start to the lodging or some such.
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Estelle Knoht, a juvenile, unreliable and respectable lady.
I currently do not accept any catbox, cider, suppers, calling cards or proteges.
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ganjalf91
Posts: 87
12/30/2015
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Danko wrote:
e) allow endgame characters to build their own 60 card deck and fight eachother
Magic: The Neathering
On a serious note: The only changes i would suggest are:
-make it possible to sell lodgins
-introduce 4 new cards for VERY high stats (200+) with decent rewards (~2 epa should be fine).
Everything else is fine. Many "useless" cards are already dodgeable by:
-Lowering connections
-keeping menaces to 0
-remote adress
Something useless like the affluent photographer or "weather at last" will always be there, but thats kind of right... I mean, if i could perfectly optimize a deck i would leave only the unsigned letter card and make ~5 epa forever, and this sounds quite broken
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http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Ganjalf91
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Lady Sapho Byron
Posts: 770
12/30/2015
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ganjalf91 wrote:
Is the fate brench worth it in terms of storyline/items? And, most of all, will it make that damn card go away from my deck? Possibly without flooding it with other cards?
Also, same questions as above for secrets framed in gold and the glim sculptor, without of course being too specific. Note that im not interested in passion destiny or the squid consort
I can't speak to the Aunt, but I found Secrets Framed in Gold an interesting story but a bit disappointing overall. No items from it. Flute Street, however, has been my best use of Fate: the lore is good, the items are fun (and useful for Monster Breeding), and once you've been there you can always go back at no Fate cost.
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http://fallenlondon.com/Profile/Lady%20Sapho%20L%20Byron
Fighting the Menace of Corsetry Since 1892.
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Danko
Posts: 142
12/30/2015
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malthaussen wrote:
Well, I am far from an end-game player, and 1.7 Echoes seems like a payout far in excess of any expectations I might have, but my deck is certainly subject to getting cards I won't use... and so what? In a few minutes, another card will come around. I am somewhat astonished that people who are experiencing something that is as free as they want it to be (no expenditure at all is required), feel it is reasonable to complain about the nature of that free something. I was always taught "beggars can't be choosers," but perhaps that has changed in recent years. At any rate, I have no complaint about the way FBG does business or creates content, and it is possibly worthwhile for the developers to hear some positive feedback from the silent majority who flip their cards in peace. Pour moi, I think FBG deserves three cheers and a tiger.
-- Mal
Oh no, I have nothing but praise and respect for FBG.
I don't think it's valid to see feedback as "complaining". And yes, I believe the people absolutely can and should submit feedback, whether they're paying customers or free players.
And my opinion is just this: I don't think it makes much sense from a design point to fill the deck with cards the player will scoff at and never play. Yes, all cards can't be and mustn't be astonishingly powerful. But there might be more interesting things to do than offering someone to investigate affluent photographer for a 1000th time, or reminding them they can replay their benefactor story for 8 fate. So "no" to filler and outdated cards, "yes" to interesting mechanics and balanced approach.
I just write this in hope that somewhere loong way down on Failbetter "TODO next year" list is a point called something like "possibly maybe consider thinking about rebalancing some opportunity cards, or maybe not."
(oh and personally I have nothing against fate-advertising opportunity cards - I've gladly paid fate and played them a long time ago, and loved every minute of it)
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http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Danko
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suinicide
Posts: 2409
12/30/2015
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Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I always found the your aunt and the embassy and the benefactor's storyline cards to be useful. (Though maybe the option to replay it should be moved to your lodgings, with most of the other resets). Those second chances are always useful. And the aunt card stopped me from going insane more times than I can count, as its so common. (I did start paying fate once I got close to the content boundary, so I Can't say how they'd feel then, but they didn't feel anywhere close to annoying when I was around 120~)
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http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/profile/sunnytime
A gentleman seeking the liberation of knowledge, with a penchant for violence.
RIP suinicide, stuck in a well. Still has it under control.
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metasynthie
Posts: 645
12/30/2015
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Danko wrote:
And my opinion is just this: I don't think it makes much sense from a design point to fill the deck with cards the player will scoff at and never play. Yes, all cards can't be and mustn't be astonishingly powerful. But there might be more interesting things to do than offering someone to investigate affluent photographer for a 1000th time, or reminding them they can replay their benefactor story for 8 fate. So "no" to filler and outdated cards, "yes" to interesting mechanics and balanced approach.
I tend to agree about filler, but if we assume there must be some bad / dangerous cards in the deck, as opposed to simply "good" and "not quite as good" (the lower end of which shades quickly into filler after a brief period) along with a moderately helpful smattering of "tradeoffs dependent on the player's current goals"... then we ought to look for interesting kinds of "bad." This is part of why I'm very enthusiastic about the Favours system in general, even if the nuances need tweaking -- it creates more possibilities for contingency and problems in the general opportunity deck. I also think it would be great if you could get rid of a couple useless cards like the City Vices / Old Friend card in exchange for a permanent Eyeless-Skull-type card. That would be an interesting tradeoff -- two useless cards for one bad undiscardable one, would you take it?
The issue, of course, is that mostly people perceive penalty as being much worse than it is compared to how they feel about a similar-sized benefit -- and of course you get far more complaints about "evil" cards than "useless" cards, even if the evil cards have some tactical uses. In grindy games like Fallen London, players tend to request more and more control over their experience -- which if you ask me, is not good for the ecosystem as a whole. It sounds like it would be beneficial for predictable labor towards a long-term goal, but the biggest challenge of working towards those goals is endurance and boredom, and predictability tends to increase boredom.
I agree 100% about feedback, as well -- which I'd say is quite distinct from complaining, as a signal-to-noise problem. This forum is pretty great on signal, which is why Alexis can afford to read and comment -- but that's a very rare situation in this genre! (Also perhaps because he no longer spends time writing --- NOOOOOOOO 
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Positively antique
http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/metasynthie
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Pyrodinium
Posts: 639
12/30/2015
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Just my two surface currencies.
On the opportunity deck:
I think one the reason that I liked this game is that it's not competitive. This is why I can sincerely celebrate the good fortunes of other people and even thank those that defeat me in K&C for a good fight. In other games, if someone has say, a +3 exceptional hat while I only got a +1 normal hat then I'm gonna hate that guy until I overtake his item build. As such, there's no immediate reason for me to beef up my deck or any of my inventory.
I do enjoy tinkering my deck until it's a bit streamlined, but I think part of the point of having an opportunity deck is well... making do with the opportunities that the "glorious" RNG (who just recently gave me a fail for a 97% success rate action) is giving you. It'll probably get boring very fast if you insta-win every time you flip a card.
As for the "advertisements", I really think it's not that intrusive nor damaging to gameplay. In some online games that I played these games' ads are necessarily to actually stay competitive. Honestly, after getting my required BDR gear on, I merely use FATE on stories just because I like FBG and their storytelling.
On improving the opportunity deck:
I support Danko's "C" option. Stat-scaling card options are the way to go although not necessarily at a 1.7 EPA ratio. I prefer grinds to be varied rather than just relying on a few carousels or opp cards.
Estelle Knoht wrote:
You know, maybe they are hoping you will frown so hard that they can snag a bottle of tiger blood.
Now I want to know how intoxicating this "drink" is. Unfortunately, getting a sip might cost me insane amounts of weeping gant scars.
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My profiles: http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Pyrodinium
(A Monster hunter on the hunt of his twin brother's killer. Overprotective dad of his twin's daughter)
http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Rudolph~of~Taured
(an indeterminate person of potentially rubbery lineage)
* All social actions except photographers and loitering welcome!
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Parelle
Posts: 1084
12/30/2015
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I'll speak up as someone who will not/cannot pay: I think I don't mind the Glim sculptor that much (and I used him to get to SotC7). But the Aunt, and lodgings are different because they are choices made with such greater long term consequence than you know at the time (I'm looking at you, cowering over there in the corner, Mr. Artist!)
And, those are somewhat counter intuitive choices: I couldn't afford much, but I was so pleased when I picked up all of the lodgings. I
thought I had seriously accomplished something! And I remember chucking my Aunt (I have fearsome ones in real life too) out the door. I thought, ha! I accomplished something!
But that was seriously before I realized that discarding your opportunity cards is safer. Wiser. And what you should do if playing optimally (more on that latter)
And that's a shame, because the opportunity deck is such an interesting concept. My favorite parts of the game are those with their own deck: Heists, at Zee, Pickpocketing, and the Flash Lays, which I hope will improve even more in the future. I'll even do these areas as someone who doesn't have a 5 card hand and half of the time forgets to switch to a 4 card hand from a remote address before starting.
And the location specific cards are such a great concept! I like the rare cards and rejoice when I find them: I've two moods in hand for the first time ever and I drew both today - go RNG go! And hey, I just drew a card I've never seen before for having Connected:Criminals 20! Are you trying to bribe me, Mr. RNG?
But for new players, those of us who've been here for awhile have to advise when asked - don't depend on the deck. Discard what you can't manage right now. Don't buy anything you'll regret later. Don't clog up your deck, because that can't be fixed. Don't pursuit undesirable connections because they'll just make things worse (I mean, I seriously considered going ridiculously out of character and stabbing that poor Rubbery Thing to get him out of my life. It took me the better part of three days to kill my Rubbery connection).
And that's a shame, because there's lots I tried out as a newer player just because I didn't know how it would work. But if someone asks on the forum how best to do something, it's usually, well, grind this storylet or try this conversion tree or luck check. Because you can depend on it being there when you need it and it's more profitable than card flipping. It's quicker, it'd be straightforward.
Being a non-paying player, I accept my 12-30 cards per day, and I check in very often. I'm happy with that and the amount of content available is great - I know I've a few areas left to reach. But it is still a shame that a chunk of the deck in the main part of the game is rather static and doesn't change or even become more difficult as time goes on. It's something which keeps me checking in quicker than the 20 action candle would otherwise lead me to, but to be frank, I'm often disappointed when I need to send my aunt to the curb again. Because lady, I TOLD you to go to the surface, and stay there!
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Parelle, Lady Joseph Marlen. The Singular Librarian. A Midnighter, a Player of the Marvelous.
pages from a dusty bookshop: a badly updated FL changelog | Useful Guidance and Explanations
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Estelle Knoht
Posts: 1751
12/28/2015
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Finishing the fate-locked portion of the Aunt branch only gives you a better Aunt card - as long as she is not working for the Church (that card is even worse than the non-fate one as far as I know). You also gain a significant advantage at Carnelian Coast.
Paying fate for Secrets Framed in Gold / Flute Street will remove the corresponding cards and will not add more cards to the deck regardless of your action after that.
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Estelle Knoht, a juvenile, unreliable and respectable lady.
I currently do not accept any catbox, cider, suppers, calling cards or proteges.
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Guest
12/28/2015
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The story itself you do afterwards (whether your aunt leaves or is bedeviled,) is fun, but only one outcome offers a certain...let's call it [spoiler]Refreshing option with the odds against you to work[/spoiler] As noted, Secrets framed in Gold is better, but other stories may or may not be better or worse than the Aunt one. If you want more detail on Fate-locked options, discuss it, here.
edited by the truthseeker on 12/28/2015
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metasynthie
Posts: 645
12/30/2015
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I suspect the difference between cards that "feel like banner ads" and cards that "feel like pop-up ads" is that the former feel like they have some marginal economic utility, you don't simply want to discard it. I suspect for endgame players that means it's around 1.4€ or more?
I fully support a shift to a higher proportion of paid content -- purely because I have never seen a sustainable model that can support the pace of content creation similar to FBG's that's mostly or even greater than 1:2 free:paid without dipping much more heavily into "pay to not be frustrated/annoyed/slow" tactics than FL ever does. Players are morally obligated to help support those working for their entertainment somehow, whether as economic, military or social cannon fodder for paying players (FL does a very small amount of the third) or by paying, watching ads, making positive contributions to a community, or at minimum just playing regularly without taking up anyone's time with complaints. Free gameplay generallt only exists to create more ways that players can give back to a game, not as charity.
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Positively antique
http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/metasynthie
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Mr Sables
Posts: 597
12/30/2015
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suinicide wrote:
Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I always found the your aunt and the embassy and the benefactor's storyline cards to be useful. (Though maybe the option to replay it should be moved to your lodgings, with most of the other resets). Those second chances are always useful. And the aunt card stopped me from going insane more times than I can count, as its so common. (I did start paying fate once I got close to the content boundary, so I Can't say how they'd feel then, but they didn't feel anywhere close to annoying when I was around 120~)
Part of it may depend on where you're at?
Second chances have a cap, so when you get to around 21-ish, you can't get any more. Same for quirks; in the sense that most options will only gain you a certain amount, and the aunt card will only let you earn a certain amount, too. So at a certain point . . . the card does absolutely nothing in any shape or form. It'll cost an action to play (for no reason), but take up space regardless of play or not (and at certain times, like certain Fate storylines or Sackmas, every card turn is precious). The benefactor's card may be an exception, as I'm sure it let's you go over the cap, so you always get something for it.
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Hobnail
Posts: 179
1/1/2016
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Oh don't tease us, tease us, tease us so...
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