An Individual
Posts: 589
11/29/2015
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This post contains spoilers for Flint parts 1 & 2 and minor spoilers for Lost in Reflections.
This is probably going to end up coming off as a bit negative so I'd like to start off by saying that I enjoyed Flint. I enjoyed the fascinating and bizarre world it painted and the broad strokes of the story. I was, however, a little disappointed by it and the reason for that comes entirely down to the way it structures its choices.
There are 3 ways that branching choices engage us in interactive narrative. First, there's the reward for making a correct or optimal choice. Maybe we needed to be paying attention. Maybe there was some puzzle to solve. But when presented with the list of choices we could tell that the one we made was the right one. The second is characterization. Our choices say something about us, or at least our characters. Are we kind, cruel, brave, practical? Our actions define us. They are the outward expression of our psyche and it is satisfying to be able to act that out in the story. And finally, there are consequences. Whether we saw it coming or not our current predicament (or lack thereof) is the culmination of our actions and it's clear that different choices would have lead to different outcomes.
These categories are not binary; they are a spectrum. A choice can engage us in any number of ways all at once. Maybe we can reason out the optimal choice but are caught between it and sticking to our principles. Maybe a choice that characterizes us also leads to unforeseen consequences. Choices that are purely consequence based are actually the trickiest to do well because the choice by itself may not be engaging which means it only becomes interesting retroactively when the consequences are revealed and it is difficult to structure the consequences in such a way that they are interesting without feeling arbitrary or pointless.
Lost in Reflections has been my favorite exceptional story by far largely because of the choice it presents. Most of that story is fairly linear as it builds it's world and sets up its scenario. Then, at the conclusion it presents you with a fascinating and difficult choice. It forces you to carefully consider what you've seen, determine where you're morals point you, and then weigh those morals against the potential consequences of your choice. Whatever you chose you stand to gain or lose something and it says something about you as a character in this crazy world.
In contrast, Flint is front-loaded with a lot of branching choices but they are all ultimately fairly arbitrary. What kind of people would you like to bring with you feels like a choice I should be puzzling out but without knowing what I would be facing your shooting in the dark. It also said fairly little about my character and in the end you could just spend resources to fill in any gaps. Who is your deputy mostly seems to be a choice of who you want to get a bit of extra story with. The decision to save or leave the bishop's sister is an interesting choice character wise but if you leave her to her fate keeping the Knapt versus getting the Word of Caution is basically just a coin toss. As far as I can tell each one just lets you bypass a challenge.
I enjoyed Flint. I enjoyed its world. But in terms of choices it mostly felt like I was traversing a series of story branches without any particular reason for taking one branch over another. The choices I made often lacked any context hinting at their consequences, they rarely felt like they said much of anything about who my character was, and ultimately I don't feel like my story would have been dramatically different if I had taken a different path. I found myself almost wishing for a more linear path through the story.
That having been said, I only saw one set of story branches and I suspect that some people will have found the choices more meaningful for their characters than I did. And again, I did like Flint but it so well encapsulated this issue of choice engagement that I couldn't help but write about it. I'm passionate about interactive narratives but they are still a relatively young medium, different people want different things from them, and we're still figuring out what works and what doesn't. Personally, I don't mind experiences that are ultimately fairly linear as long as my character has the opportunity to define who they are and how they fit into the narrative. Outside of Fallen London, The Walking Dead Season 1 from Telltale is a great example of this. For me, Lee was a man desperately trying to hold onto his humanity in extreme conditions. For you he may have been very different even though the broad strokes of his story would have been fairly similar. Flint seemed to be the opposite. A narrative that branched without those branches saying much about the character at the center of the story and with no particularly strong reason for picking one branch over another.
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metasynthie
Posts: 645
12/1/2015
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There are as many consequences for who you bring as a deputy as there would be if you were deciding who to bring along on a road trip in the real world: you have different conversations; you learn different things; because no journey is without risk, you expose a different friend to potential harm. That's an awful lot of consequence for the course of a piece of literature, not least of which for the texture of experience.
It's only "inconsequential" if you accept the Bazaar's training of your psyche to consider recorded, numerical qualities as a "real consequence" and everything else as ephemeral. What is the stuff of life? Does it need to take up a slot on your character sheet? This is the central tension of Fallen London: one of many fragile love stories? Or a cog in the engine of commerce? You can always act heartlessly against an ally, as Optimatum says, to reap all the rewards -- and heck, there are ways to get your Magnanimous back to 15 even if it dropped it by 20 CP. All qualities in Fallen London are as illusory as all pieces of story, remember: they're phantasms of greed. (They are also the basis for every decision I make with my main, because I desire for that character to be thoroughly ground by the wheels of the Bazaar.)
Most interactive narratives -- and this becomes more true as the quality of writing increases, not the opposite -- rely far more on choices that change the texture of the experience or the expression of the player's mentality than on consequences or "right/wrong" choices. The latter are somewhat pedestrian from a story point of view, if you think about it, and the former, if they rise to the level of "plot altering," are fraught with structural problems. There's a reason "big consequence choices" tend to happen at the end of many narratives, as in Reflections in July; they're less problematic there, it's an easy way out. (This diagram I made for a textbook chapter I wrote on the subject a few years ago helps explain why if that seems unclear: http://deadpixel.co/imgs/7_11.png) Fallen London has another characteristic technique, especially in Exceptional Stories: recording numerical qualities as a memento of choice, adding to the player's hoard of stuff. The question for a reader, I think, is that given all of these branches, consequences, textures, and numbers exist within a sandbox or a Buddha's palm created by the authors, which will feel the most significant as a choice? So many readers of interactive narrative assume that "changing the plot" is the point, even though the plot is no less part of a sandboxed possibility-architecture than any other aspect. It may help to consider why this is, why we crave plot-alterations. There could be a host of reasons; they may sum into a realization that the truest choice is in how you approach and care about a story as a sandbox, a tree, perhaps less for the cruder things it does to you than for the scrapey feel of rough bark and grains, the delineations and expanse, the way it let you play and be yourself amidst its structure. If you think it could rise to the quality of literature? Appreciate it at least a little like literature, is my advice to readers.
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metasynthie
Posts: 645
12/1/2015
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Oh, the one thing I agree about is that the nature of some of the new qualities could have been communicated better. I kind of guessed that they were a kind of consumable expedition supply needed for various challenges and that you'd either be able to get more or could get by with either comforts or inclinations; but that was design intuition, and there wasn't anything in the story that would have precluded explaining the nature of those qualities. You were, after all, preparing for an expedition.
The nature of the Word of Caution and the Knapt, on the other hand, had to be mysterious and leave the player character clueless. After all: the dark heart of the Elder Continent. Sorry, light heart.
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metasynthie
Posts: 645
12/2/2015
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A couple particulars I feel are worth considering about the choices in this story, in terms of what I think "works" and "doesn't work" -- the latter in some cases deliberately, for narrative effect:
- first, this a story about not having any idea what you're walking into in the tantalizing wilds of the Elder Continent. This is why the ambiguity of the Knapt and the Word of Caution makes sense -- that's blind choice made on rumor and fragmentary information about an exotic land you're about to march all over on a Bishop's orders. You're told to get these really important things that will help you survive which turns out to be a half-truth at best; the fact that you make basic preparations at all (bringing assistants and a deputy) ends up having more tangible benefit than your decision about which of these two mysterious and powerful items you bring. When you reach Caution and find out what significance the Word or Knapt actually has, the whole scene is much stranger than you could have imagined, with possibilities involving talking animals that you couldn't foresee.
The ambiguity and blindness of your choice contributes to the themes of the story; imagine exoticized travel advice about Surface lands. "You can't wear your shoes indoors in Japan, so you'd better bring your own slippers!" Not exactly right, not exactly wrong; other things matter much more. A thing to remember: aspects where your seemingly important choices don't really matter the way you thought, or at all are of as much significance to a narrative as the inverse, just as white space is to a painting; they can be shaped just as much by a good author. The best-laid plans are still a way to make the gods chuckle at you. You can read this all as a meta-commentary about the exact kind of problems with branching and consequence that are being discussed in this thread; there's a desire among many players (especially in say, big-budget games like the Fallout or Dragon Age series) to know exactly the consequences of every choice, far in advance, to be able to "play correctly." This precludes many varieties of drama; but what if the character is just wrong, misinformed, or ignorant?
- At the moment of this actually-not-so-crucial choice between one mysterious valuable shiny and another mysterious valuable shiny, there's a third choice: save an individual's life. A snuffer's life, to be sure; but a snuffer lives only once. That life turns out to be the only "permanent unique item" that you can't later obtain if you don't save her; even in the Neath, when you're really dead you're gone. Retrospectively, this throws your "which shiny do I go for" choice into sharper relief: that choice matters less, in the long run. Why did you choose as you did? Some of the most effective choices are the reflective ones, right? (And if you don't know what a reflective choice, it may be worth knowing that the author of this exceptional story coined that term, which has gone on to impact other interactive narrative authors: http://www.failbettergames.com/the-decision-gap/)
And you can get both the Knapt and the Word if you sacrifice another woman's life, the one who put you in that dilemma in the first place, caused the fire in the Light-Factory (I believe?), etc. If you want all the shinies, you can off her for them instead.
- This also a story about supporting a companion on the edge of a bleak place. This is actually the aspect of the story I felt worked the best, AS a blind choice: picking your companion, choosing whether to be optimistic or pessimistic when hearing their troubles, and seeing that choice ripple forward into depression or hope. There is quite rightly no difference between the companions that you pick here -- they all follow this structure. Why? Because you chose that person to come with you, in the absence of any reason why. There is no apparent efficiency or monetary benefit to picking one over the other. (Maybe Silas, if you think rarer is better, but in this particular case you'd be wrong.) That leaves sentiment! Sentiment -- the reflective and expressive choice of who you want to have with you. Like the truthseeker, I also picked an optimistic choice despite usually picking pragmatic choices -- and that's because I genuinely felt why not? the sardonic music-hall singer seems pretty bummed out, I should cheer her up. If I'd been thinking more pragmatically, this expression might not have taken root; and this is a tightrope that Fallen London has become very adept at walking.
Interestingly, this is a choice that you could get wrong -- fail to buoy your chosen companion up, and they may leave you forever.
In light of all of the above, I'm still trying to interpret the feeling that this story lacks choices that matter -- and I guess I'm still concluding that it's out of a perspective that what "matters" is the dross recording of numerical qualities, perhaps since they promise (not always truly) the possibility of forward interaction at a later date, of unlocks and connections to later stories? Or that what "matters" is a furthering of your character's role in the grand stories of London -- as a result of this expedition, it's not as if you are now in league with or against the Dawn Machine, it's not as if you've made friends with a royal, or advancing towards a particular destiny, or possibly doing something in Paris decades from now. Your future hasn't acquired more marks of importance. But always wanting more of this is a little bit indulgent, isn't it? Like demanding that every course in a meal come with its own dessert, because you enjoy a sweet taste, that centrality of your character. For another thing, fate-locked stories are always going to be a bit optional for an unfolding of a grand destiny; for another, your character is never truly central in the Fallen London of hundreds of thousands of players. (I mean, unless you're NiteBrite.)
Which is more satisfying to play with? A traditional MadLib? Or one where all the words are filled in, but you pick from two different sentences for the ending? They're different, certainly. But to suggest that MadLibs are somehow less than "choose between n pre-written sentences to add" is a little strange.
For the record, this isn't my favorite or second-favorite Exceptional Story, but for me its flaws certainly don't lie in the choice structure -- they're in the sprawling size of the thing, with a ton of different segments that feel a little duct-taped together. But hey, I'm looking forward to visiting Apis Meet again and going on other Elder Continent Expeditions that use the new mechanics, so I'm all for the coat-tail riding.
edited by metasynthie on 12/2/2015
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Kade Carrion (an_ocelot)
Posts: 1372
12/2/2015
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I learned a fuckload about the Elder Continent and, as metasynthie says, chose to save a life and forge a relationship; I never felt that I was being unduly confined or that the overall choices weren't interesting. I appreciated that there were lots of ways to generate passphrases on the spot, for newer players that didn't have them to hand (though if there was an in-game hint about needing to bring wine, I missed it, and that would've been too bad). My only regret about the story is that I somehow missed the mini-quest in the jungle.
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Travers
Posts: 98
12/2/2015
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An Individual wrote:
However, if you chose to leave her the choice between The Knapt and the Word of Caution is a boring one. They're both tools you need and that's about all you really know about them. Picking the one over the other doesn't really say anything about you. Regardless of what happens down the road in the moment there isn't much to do but pick one and move on.
This decision was a bit more meaningful than that as the Bishop tells you, if I remember correctly, to trade anything to obtain the Word. If you return with the Word, he respects your decision more than the other options: [spoiler]"You fulfilled my request, with honour and with wisdom"[/spoiler]
His response was enough reward for me to feel that the choice mattered.
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Estelle Knoht
Posts: 1751
12/1/2015
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metasynthie wrote:
It's only "inconsequential" if you accept the Bazaar's training of your psyche to consider recorded, numerical qualities as a "real consequence" and everything else as ephemeral.
Most interactive narratives -- and this becomes more true as the quality of writing increases, not the opposite -- rely far more on choices that change the texture of the experience or the expression of the player's mentality than on consequences or "right/wrong" choices.
There are other examples of story (outside this game) where the meaning and context can change greatly without actually tracking your choice - I remember a story where a princess talked to her doppelganger from a mirror - the conversation is always the same, but the single line of reply you pick for the Princess can turn it either into a fond farewell to a friend, a horror story where she is replaced, or, er, some sort of masturbation (I will not elaborate on that).
Well, there's also the Cheesemonger and the Heiress too, where their ending state are wiped at the end of the story. Or the Patroness. But in a game where both little things and big things are tracked and communicated to the players, sometimes not tracking decisions can change the texture too, if you count quality changes as part of the writing. I mean, I stand by my choice and never sells orphans, but people learn to recognize patterns and adjust their expectations accordingly.
(Btw it is totally possible that you can still track the Patroness's status - if you have the Knapt AND either Woman in Yellow / Word of Caution, then she's definitely dead. Stealth tracker?)
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An Individual
Posts: 589
12/1/2015
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Optimatum wrote:
Flint has been an amazing story so far, and when a certain Urchin comes asking I'll attempt to rate it as six stars out of five. But the interactive part of the story feels much more like the storyteller asking me to fill in blanks MadLibs-style than a true choice.
If anyone was TLDR on the first post (can't blame you there) this is makes for a brilliant 2 sentence summary.
edited by An Individual on 12/1/2015
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titusAndronicus
Posts: 9
12/2/2015
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I agree with some parts of this, but honestly, I'm not sure whether I want "true choice" in Fallen London or really in anything - it's more interesting to see what's not possible to change, and it's kind of pleasing to know that everyone else going through the story is going through in a similar but not quite the same way - I'm not going to miss anything vital due to the choices I made. I think the fact that Flint was limited in some ways is a positive, and says a lot about the story: the expedition to the Elder Continent is going to be the same no matter who goes on it. You're not a powerful and important person there, you're tiny compared to a literal living mountain, and you're choices don't matter because you don't matter. And as a mechanic, it is comforting to know that I'm not missing out on story, or that my choices will have unexpected consequences. MadLibs is after all a very fun game.
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An Individual
Posts: 589
12/2/2015
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titusAndronicus wrote:
I agree with some parts of this, but honestly, I'm not sure whether I want "true choice" in Fallen London or really in anything - it's more interesting to see what's not possible to change, and it's kind of pleasing to know that everyone else going through the story is going through in a similar but not quite the same way - I'm not going to miss anything vital due to the choices I made. I think the fact that Flint was limited in some ways is a positive, and says a lot about the story: the expedition to the Elder Continent is going to be the same no matter who goes on it. You're not a powerful and important person there, you're tiny compared to a literal living mountain, and you're choices don't matter because you don't matter. And as a mechanic, it is comforting to know that I'm not missing out on story, or that my choices will have unexpected consequences. MadLibs is after all a very fun game.
This sentiment has come up a couple times so I figure I should give a clarification. I'm actually in favor of more linear experiences. Large branches in stories generate an enormous amount of extra work and small branches can add up. And in the case of Fallen London I agree with the above sentiment that I generally want to see as much of the content as possible as I would rather not miss out on any lore.
The complaint I'm making isn't so much about the choices in Flint not impacting the story so much as the fact that many of the choices in Flint were a bit boring to make. Quite a few of them (the big ones anyway) came off as just "choose a thing" and I didn't feel there was an interesting reason to choose one thing over another thing.
As another example of a choice that I really liked let's look at this one from "The Gift".
[spoiler]In the gift there is a part where you are looking in a mirror observing the royal family. They're having an interesting conversation, but it's pretty clear that what you're seeing isn't what's really happening. You have the option to remain still and eavesdrop on their conversation or to turn around and find out what's going on at the cost of revealing yourself. The later warns that this is a bad idea.
I thought this was fantastic. Your curiosity is pulled in both directions. Remaining still feels sneaky. Turning around feels daring. If you stay still you get to hear their conversation. I turned around and had to drag myself back from the Mirror Marches in order to complete the story. The immediate impact on the story is low and it doesn't change anything in the long run, but the act of making the choice and experiencing the result was extremely engaging.[/spoiler]
Coming back to Flint, I liked the choice to save or abandon the bishop's sister not because it would impact the story down the line, but because in the moment it was an interesting decision to make. You have to choose between giving up the tools meant to help you in the expedition and saving the life of a person who has already betrayed you. Can you really leave her to her fate? What will the consequences of not having these tools be down the line? What will the bishop think of your choice?
However, if you chose to leave her the choice between The Knapt and the Word of Caution is a boring one. They're both tools you need and that's about all you really know about them. Picking the one over the other doesn't really say anything about you. Regardless of what happens down the road in the moment there isn't much to do but pick one and move on.
For me, both parts of Flint had a scattering of the second kind of choice. The path branched in small or large ways but the choice of which path to take was kind of a boring one. This didn't destroy my enjoyment of the story. I still enjoyed it immensely. But it was one of those nagging things that bugged me about its design.
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Optimatum
Posts: 3666
12/1/2015
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Though I don't think it was as big an issue for me, I rather agree with this sentiment. In Part I, the only choice that felt at all significant to me was the final choice in the Light Factory. Sure, I could choose an extra goal in the Dish & Spoon, but that was clearly for extra profit in some form or another. My choice of assistants granted items which seemed potentially story-defining, but it turned out they could be acquired later for some ordinary items. My choice of deputy gave me some additional insight into her character, but it didn't change the course of the story. It felt much like the requirements to become a PoSI: fulfill one of these quality requirements to proceed.
As mentioned above, the final choice of Part I was much less clear-cut. Which do you choose, one item to ease your journey or a life of uncertain value? Which best fits your character? Which choice will aid your expedition most vs how the other characters will view you? From a meta standpoint, what unique item would you like most? Coming to the story after slightly over a month's delay I knew the general reactions of characters to your choice, but the exact consequences were still unclear. But as a completionist my choice was made when I learned the first two items could be obtained at the end of Part II, though after their use in the story. Two options would permanently lock me out of an item but the third had no permanent consequence.
I have not yet completed Part II and am currently in Caution. Since I know that All Shall Be Well, changing my deputy to a newly-healed friend will alter the exact text I read but not the overall path and result of the story. Even if all might not be well, I've heard that risky decisions later hurt (a lot) but are mostly inconveniences without change to the story. In fact, risk seems to have one slight benefit available and only one path of decisions can actually cause permanent loss. And though without foreknowledge I would act differently, tales of the benefit mean I'll act heartlessly against an ally for profit. From what I've heard this won't even hit my carefully-raised Magnanimous almost-15.
Flint has been an amazing story so far, and when a certain Urchin comes asking I'll attempt to rate it as six stars out of five. But the interactive part of the story feels much more like the storyteller asking me to fill in blanks MadLibs-style than a true choice.
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Valiant
Posts: 127
12/1/2015
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Estelle Knoht wrote:
Btw it is totally possible that you can still track the Patroness's status - if you have the Knapt AND either Woman in Yellow / Word of Caution, then she's definitely dead.
Small correction: I have both Knapt and Word of Caution, but Patroness is very much alive and happy - you could persuade her to give you the Word in the end (don't know about Knapt).
edited by Valiant on 12/1/2015
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Guest
12/2/2015
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I simply went with why I made the choice I made and chose the relevant emotional decision option in the second part. Little did I realize the "optimistic" option I chose (over the normal pragmatic choice I often made with the character) would have the effects it did (when I played the risky path) between literally staying or going. It felt rewarding that I got to see another side of the Snuffers we often do not see. I won't say the character empathizes with them, but I can as the character understand them a heck of a lot better than the machinations of other beings (even if those beings stated their intentions honestly before. For instance, I would have no commonality with those beings in "The Gift" even if I knew exactly what they were (alas, he now does.)
edited by the truthseeker on 12/2/2015
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Fhoenix
Posts: 602
12/2/2015
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That's nice to know. Thank you. It still feels that the question you ask in the end won't matter in the long run and I still don't get why we even had to choose what to ask. But thank you.
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dov
Posts: 2580
12/2/2015
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I'm honoured! :-)
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