Sara Hysaro
Moderator
Posts: 4514
10/26/2015
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Hallowmas is a great time of the year to advance your Masters of the Bazaar connection, but betraying another player's Trust to do so can make one feel guilty about the negative consequences the other may suffer. This thread exists to allow those who wish to betray a more civil method to do so without needing to talk it over with each individual person.
If you are alright with being betrayed or wish to arrange mutual betrayals feel free to post here to be added to the list. If Time the Healer might be striking close to the end of the event be sure to note that, and you will be placed on a list until you feel safe being betrayed. There is also another list if you are open to the idea of being betrayed but wish to be personally contacted by the betrayers.
Located in this spoiler box is a list of those who have indicated that they are fine with being betrayed, whether it's general or conditional. I'll do my best to keep this list updated, and be sure to follow the rules of each section so everyone can be happy. 
[spoiler]
Current List of Players
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General Betrayals - Go right ahead and betray! No rules to follow here.
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Mutual Betrayals - Two way betrayals. Do not betray unless they can do the same to you.
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Permission Required - Please contact these individuals and obtain personal permission for betrayals. Do not betray unless they have given you the okay.
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Warning Required - Make a note in your confession invite that you plan on betraying their Trust.
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Waiting on Time - Do not betray anyone in this list. They will be moved off the list and into the appropriate category once it is safe for them to be betrayed.
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Capacity Reached - These players are not accepting any additional betrayals, and thus have been moved off their original lists. If you haven't sent them a Confession request before the listed date do not betray them.
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- Saran - (Oct 29th) [General]
[/spoiler]
edited by Sara Hysaro on 11/8/2015
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Lady Taimi Felix
Posts: 202
10/29/2015
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While putting myself on a list asking for only mutual betrayals may be of limited benefit, it also clears my conscience when I send the 'non-mutuals' a big fat sack of live rats to chew on their tender parts if I'm feeling particularly stroppy. One reaps what one sows.
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Lady Taimi Felix: Devoted Wife. Invisible Eminence. Patron of the Shadowy Arts. Monster Hunter. Lady of Adventure. Exceptionally Lethal. Loves a Good Chat over Coffee.
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Danko
Posts: 142
11/7/2015
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Parelle wrote:
Danko wrote:
I think next year we would benefit from having 2 lists:
1) People who warn others that they would really appreciate not to be betrayed;
2) People who warn others that they are going to betray some or all confessions they get.
That should help with avoiding any confusion regarding the betrayals.
Mea culpa, on my part, as someone who publically complained to you, Dansko - it was meant more in jest than annoyance but upon rereading, I see it came over much more serious than intended! Thank you for the non-betrayal, nevertheless.
Please, Parelle, you have nothing to worry about. I would not want any harm to come the way of such a fine lady.
I do find it most amusing how social actions of Fallen London are governed by an entirely community-made etiquette. And everyone is just so polite and courteous to each other, while being impolite is probably the worst crime you can commit.
Let me just say that it is absolutely lovely, and not something I've been used to in my harsh northern life at all.
I've been avoiding social actions for the whole year I've been playing and now I'm thinking I might have been wrong about that. This community really feels unique.
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Ysrthgrathe
Posts: 87
11/8/2015
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That was me, Speethling, wasn't it?
Sorry, your confession request doesn't show up on my queue. But i try to answer as many request as I can up to the last minute.
But I mean what I wrote in my note. If you are really hurt, tell me a number and I will sent you gifts of the unexpected in return.
I will use fate, so you will get them on the ninth oder tenth.
I roleplay that I need connection the Masters 20 to get my child back. That's probably pretty stupid, but grinding for cider is a little dull for me.
Mechanical speaking, I betrayed plenty of people. I would have asked in advance, but I still have to work through more invitations for confessions than I can probably handle. It think it is more important to use my actions for that? Or is that terribly rude?
RandomWalker just brought to my attention that I could have sent PMs over the forum. Sorry, but this hadn't crossed my mind und now it is too late.
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Sara Hysaro
Moderator
Posts: 4514
11/8/2015
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I would say accepting a request is doing that person a favour since you're using your actions to the benefit of someone else. Sending a request is asking for a favour.
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Shalinoth
Posts: 493
11/7/2015
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The award for most intriguing betrayal I've seen so far goes to Ysrthgrathe, who claims the Masters have his child!
That's the kind of betrayal I very-much welcome 
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edited by Shalinoth on 11/7/2015
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Profiles: Shally, Chimes & Jack~of~Smiles . . . Current Goal: 
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Talkes
Posts: 90
10/26/2015
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Lawless unconfined betrayal it is! I proudly state that I'm very likely to gossip with certain interested parties about whoever's reckless enough to give me their confession. Obviously, I'm perfectly fine with being betrayed too.
I do promise to send gifts of apology afterwards if betrayal was one-sided 
edited by Talkes on 10/26/2015
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Det
Posts: 48
10/26/2015
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And how exactly does it work? What "negative consequences the other may suffer" we are talking about here?
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Zareen Bakara
Posts: 66
11/6/2015
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Sara Hysaro wrote:
The list isn't intended to stop people from behaving like that. People who are fully comfortable in using the betrayal options have no need for this thread, and I'm not trying to discourage them from using the action in the way FBG probably intended it to be used. The purpose of the thread is to give people who are not comfortable betraying others a way to do so without feeling guilty about it. The target audience of this thread are the sorts of people who will definitely respect the Do Not Betray list. Absolutely, I understand the purpose of *this* thread - and the people using it are, in my experience, the type who would definitely respect a Do Not Betray list. Sorry if I was unclear about that.
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Sara Hysaro
Moderator
Posts: 4514
11/9/2015
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And that's it! Thank you to everyone who participated, and I hope you had a great Hallowmas. Next year I shall strive to improve the list for everyone.
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Grenem
Posts: 2067
11/6/2015
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Sara Hysaro wrote:
That was my initial thought, but there's different levels of not caring for betrayals and having a list for those who adamantly dislike being betrayed might help deter some of those who'll betray outside of the list.
Good idea. I mean, I won't betray them, but that's a matter of cold-blooded calculation, not anything external. If i knew who would be likely to swear undying vengance and who would settle for lethally poisoning me once, I'd be a lot more likely to factor said list in.
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Married!:http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/takuza
I will accept all social actions that do not consume free evenings- and i will provide patronage to anyone who requests it, though it will be split between all requesters.
On psudeo-hiatus. Will be inactive and active and fluctuate without warning.
Grinding Favors without cards: http://community.failbettergames.com/topic22266-storylet-favors-grinding.aspx
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Myrto
Posts: 209
11/7/2015
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Shalinoth wrote:
The award for most intriguing betrayal I've seen so far goes to Ysrthgrathe, who claims the Masters have his child!
That's the kind of betrayal I very-much welcome
Totally! I loved that betrayal! I laughed out loud when I read it. Thanks Ysrthgrathe, for the wonderful betrayal.
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Myrto, a mysterious veteran spy who is only on their own side. Married to navchaa!
Edith Alpha Doyle, social climber with grand ambitions; Correspondent who would be happy to assist you in whatever way she can.
, teenage orphan who came to the Neath to pursue a career in crime; monster-hunter. Currently on the Seeking road.
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The Speeth
Posts: 26
11/8/2015
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Hey all. I'm not doing any betraying myself this year, but I wanted to ask the experts on the subject what they think about a particular point of etiquette.
Namely, is it indecorous to betray someone's confession if you 1) have not yet accepted their confession request, and 2) have already determined you are unlikely to do so before confessions close?
My inclination is to think this quite rude (not in-game RP rude, but actual interpersonal rude), given that the betrayed party in this situation not only did you the favor of sending you a request, and accepting one you sent them, but also is left without the option of betraying in kind or forgiving you your trespass. You have left them 3 actions and several CP of scandal and MW out, by combining a negative in-story social action with a lack of reciprocity regarding an out-of-story agreement (accepting each other's requests).
As should be obvious, this just happened to me, and I am surprisingly annoyed. Am I failing to embrace the spirit of the holiday?
edited by Speethling on 11/8/2015
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Sara Hysaro
Moderator
Posts: 4514
11/8/2015
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Hmm. Well, I spent my first two Hallowmas events betraying nearly everyone, and I'm pretty sure not all the people I betrayed had the ability to betray me in return. At the same time, however, I always accepted every single invitation I received, and made sure to keep myself available for a good amount of time. I would say that it would probably sting way more if you spent actions inviting them to confess and they just never accepted it. In one case you just never reciprocated the invitation, and in the other you feel denied. I can definitely understand why you would feel the way you do.
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Shalinoth
Posts: 493
11/8/2015
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In my case I answered all confession requests sent back to me, but when I double-check my notes it's likely there will be some who didn't send me a request back but who answered mine and got betrayed for it. Whilst that's not as severe as your example, I've already started sending out some beneficial gestures to those affected.
This was my first year participating in Hallowmas outside of my own small friends list (which is now massive). Next year I am going to organise more thoroughly and much more openly. I'll keep clearer data on who is in a state of mutual confessing with me, who is selflessly giving me theirs and not asking for mine, and vice versa where I've confessed and not asked back. I think i'll let this data inform my decisions on whether to betray or not.
In your case, where time is running out, we should probably be much more mindful of those situations.
I started betraying by going for those listed opted-in on this thread, and for the vast majority of the rest I only sent a betrayal once all my pending requests were reciprocated.
Short answer, yeah I think it's poor form to cut and run when you clearly have a reciprocating invite pending and you've gone and used theirs.
One question though. What's the actual 'favour' of sending a request? I understand the acceptance is done at considerable cost, and risk. But making a request of someone isn't a favour, is it?
.
edited by Shalinoth on 11/8/2015
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Profiles: Shally, Chimes & Jack~of~Smiles . . . Current Goal:
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Danko
Posts: 142
11/6/2015
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Hey, I'm not a monster, so if anyone for any reason doesn't want to be betrayed, just respond here or drop me a message anyhow. I feel terribly evil already anyway.
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http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Danko
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Ysrthgrathe
Posts: 87
11/6/2015
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Late to the party: Betray my, I deserve it!
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https://www.fallenlondon.com/Profile/Ysrthgrathe
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Ysrthgrathe
Posts: 87
11/7/2015
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I'm going to bed now. Tomorrow morning my making waves should be high enough to invite the Amanuensis and send you your first point of notability.
What are you called in the Neath? Also murderstone? Or dan654wer?
edited by Ysrthgrathe on 11/7/2015
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https://www.fallenlondon.com/Profile/Ysrthgrathe
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Sara Hysaro
Moderator
Posts: 4514
11/8/2015
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In my first year I didn't know that betrayals for Connected: Masters would be a thing until the option suddenly showed up towards the end as a preview of the future options, and oh man, I was so excited about it. I'd hit 11 through Mr Pages sometime before then, and was probably one of the first people to discover the (then) recent cap on the card's appearance. This was back in April of 2013, so I'd been stuck for months waiting for Christmas in the hopes of getting my connection up.
On the very last day of the first phase I stayed up late so that I could betray everyone right off the bat. This was back when the point of Masters connection was guaranteed, and when dealing with your received connections didn't cost any actions. I believe my Master's connection went up from 11 to 14 by the end of it. It was great, and because I did all my betrayals immediately everybody who had my confession was able to reclaim their lost Making Waves by getting me back in return. I'm still surprised I didn't end up in the Tomb-Colonies by the end of it.
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edited by Sara Hysaro on 11/8/2015
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Shalinoth
Posts: 493
11/8/2015
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Oh, good idea there. 'Zero-action' Forum requests by PM. I can add that to my options for next year's Betrayal etiquette. It won't cover the many non-forum players but it's a little more help.
I admire your roleplay goal, happy to have been part of its progress.
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Profiles: Shally, Chimes & Jack~of~Smiles . . . Current Goal:
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xKiv
Posts: 846
11/8/2015
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Ysrthgrathe wrote:
I roleplay that I need connection the Masters 20 to get my child back. That's probably pretty stupid, but grinding for cider is a little dull for me.
Heh.
I was pondering if it could be the *other* meaning of "have my child" ....
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https://www.fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/xKiv - a witchful, percussive, dangermous and shadowry scholar of coexplodence, hopsidirean, and walker of fallen kitties.
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Sara Hysaro
Moderator
Posts: 4514
11/7/2015
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Ah, okay. I'm probably going to put a little disclaimer next to the Do Not Betray list next year to make sure that everyone knows that being listed there won't necessarily stop all betrayals. I think everybody ends up getting at least a couple betrayals out of the blue.
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Please do not send SMEN, cat boxes, or Affluent Reporter requests. All other social actions are welcome.
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Shalinoth
Posts: 493
11/7/2015
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Likewise - no hard feelings when I get betrayed, even after trusting. I actually welcome it when it has a cheeky bit of text included. Been saving the interesting text of those betrayers for future RP openings, actually. It's all fun.
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Profiles: Shally, Chimes & Jack~of~Smiles . . . Current Goal:
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Hobnail
Posts: 179
11/7/2015
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VENGEANCE
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Ysrthgrathe
Posts: 87
10/30/2015
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Isn't the increase in Connected: The Masters a rare success?
What are the chances?
edited by Ysrthgrathe on 10/30/2015
edited by Ysrthgrathe on 10/30/2015
edited by Ysrthgrathe on 10/30/2015
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Hobnail
Posts: 179
11/1/2015
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Betray my trust! Break my covenants! Burn me, blind me, bring me to grief!
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Zareen Bakara
Posts: 66
11/6/2015
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Shalinoth wrote:
I saw at least 2 people were vocal about the sting of betrayal on the forums, so I started some discussion on etiquette for the future. But could be try to include a new list here next time for those who wish to have nothing whatsoever to do with betrayals? To have a list to honour from would minimise sour grapes a little more.
Personally, I assumed that not signing up for betrayals in the dedicated thread, or not posting that one wouldn't mind being betrayed, was as good as saying that one wanted nothing to do with betrayals.
Mind you, the only character who's betrayed my characters is nowhere to be found on the dedicated betrayal thread...
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Sara Hysaro
Moderator
Posts: 4514
11/6/2015
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That was my initial thought, but there's different levels of not caring for betrayals and having a list for those who adamantly dislike being betrayed might help deter some of those who'll betray outside of the list.
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Please do not send SMEN, cat boxes, or Affluent Reporter requests. All other social actions are welcome.
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Kade Carrion (an_ocelot)
Posts: 1372
10/26/2015
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Det wrote:
And how exactly does it work? What "negative consequences the other may suffer" we are talking about here?
Increase Scandal and drop Making Waves.
I'm usually good for MW, so I can be betrayed generally.
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HerrHieronymous
Posts: 12
10/26/2015
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Is mutual betrayal not why we're here?
In any case, I'm game!
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Shalinoth
Posts: 493
10/26/2015
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Likewise, eager for amicable betrayals. Same as Talkes, gifts for non-mutual eventualities seems a nice way to smooth things over.
Here's us:
Jack-of-Smiles: Generally betray it to your heart's content!
http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Jack~of~Smiles
Shalinoth: Mutual betrayals please & a bit Time-sensitive (11 Notability) http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Shalinoth
Mr~Chimes: Will betray you even if you show Trust.
http://fallenlondon.storynexus.com/Profile/Jack~of~Chimes
Please note, you can even ask my Jack-of-Smiles NOT to betray you back, and I will honour it as best I can.
EDIT: Could that be a 'selfish' new category maybe? I realise it's an honour risk but we seem a fairly up-front blunt bunch.
EDIT: Betray all of us at your leisure now. Time the Healer has come.
edited by Shalinoth on 11/4/2015
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Profiles: Shally, Chimes & Jack~of~Smiles . . . Current Goal:
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Sara Hysaro
Moderator
Posts: 4514
10/27/2015
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I added a new list to accommodate the requests for advance notice from betrayers.
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Shalinoth
Posts: 493
10/27/2015
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Excellent!
EDIT: Do be careful that you don't send two Confession invites to the same person. They can only accept one, even if they're different kinds.
I'll be accepting the most recent where duplicates occur, on the assumption that you've had your fill of the former for whatever reason.
edited by Shalinoth on 10/27/2015
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Profiles: Shally, Chimes & Jack~of~Smiles . . . Current Goal:
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Kivrin Neverwinter
Posts: 86
10/29/2015
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genesis wrote:
This thread confuses me slightly... I understood it to be an organisation thread for people interested primarily in betrayals (i.e. those who are not motivated by getting the Spirit as high as possible). But now I see lists of people requiring permission to betray them or requiring you to arrange mutual betrayals...
I am gunning for 500 Spirit and so only clicked here out of curiosity but am now a bit consternated what I should do if next week I have some spare Confessions. I was just planning to betray any spare ones but now it seems that there might be a complicated procedure of checking every name and arranging permissions and whatnot... Or have I misunderstood something very obvious?
From what I understand, betrayals can and will happen with or without consent. That's just part of the Hallowmas fun: testing the trust you've placed in total strangers. This thread's purpose is to help people who would like to try for some Masters connection through betrayals, without the guilt of harming innocents. We agree to betray each other and nobody gets hurt- but the space bats don't need to know that!
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Often lost, always armed, eager for adventure.
Kivrin Neverwinter
Also: August Reave, whose quest for knowledge tends to drive him mad or dead or both, at least once a week.
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Sara Hysaro
Moderator
Posts: 4514
10/29/2015
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This thread is mostly just a resource for arranging civil betrayals more efficiently than personally contacting each person beforehand and waiting for a response. My first year I betrayed literally everyone with very little advance warning and nobody really minded as far as I can tell. My second year I put a note in my signature and sent my requests with a "Care for a mutual betrayal?" message attached, and if they were accepted I just assumed that meant they were okay with it (again, far as I could tell they were). Towards the end someone suggested a thread for arranging mutual betrayals, and I created the very first thread.
This year I created the thread before the event even started, and have decided to step back from full throttle betray everyone mode. I'll definitely get fewer betrayals this time, but at least I know for certain that everyone is 100% cool with it. That's what this thread is for.
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edited by Sara Hysaro on 10/29/2015
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